Matchup Re-Discussion: Ice Climbers

[[FBC] ESAM]

I would if there were any non-lag TV's at MLG >_>

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

I would if there were any non-lag TV's at MLG >_>

Do they allow you to "sneak" setups in? Raleigh is my home territory, (my place is not far from the venue at all--much like rollerking's) so I might be able to bring my tv and setup.

Pika-house for raleigh pikachu attendees? lol.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

You can't bring TV's into the venue.

However, the pika house would be cool. I don't think I can stay there though

 

[KayLo!]

Thanks LDPK.

I'll work on getting these MU summaries done.

 

[King~]

if you started one ldpk id come

 

[PikaPika!]

I'm terrible at the IC matchup as I only try to thunder the **** outta nana

 

[The Truth!]

lol, even if thats true you probably know more about it than nearly every other pika main from pikachus perspective. Even mashing out of grabs fast puts you way ahead of almost everyone in terms of mu capability.

But thats also sort of my point. Its not necessarily a better mu, but were still a far cry from having thoroughly studied and practiced enough. For instance, what can pika do against a desynched IC doing at least one blizzard? What is nana most likely to do after missing a tech? How long will she stay on the ground? What are pikas best options to cover these scenarios? Which of pikas moves will knock one IC out of squal? etc. Ive spent a little time researching, mostly in practice mode separating nana and seeing what she will do or how she reacts to different things, and what influence popo can have on her.

 

[KayLo!]

Ive spent a little time researching, mostly in practice mode separating nana and seeing what she will do or how she reacts to different things, and what influence popo can have on her.

And your findings are..... ?

We need more talk about the actual matchup, because right now, y'all are saying a bunch of ifs, ands, buts, and nothing.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

lol, even if thats true you probably know more about it than nearly every other pika main from pikachus perspective. Even mashing out of grabs fast puts you way ahead of almost everyone in terms of mu capability.

But thats also sort of my point. Its not necessarily a better mu, but were still a far cry from having thoroughly studied and practiced enough. For instance, 1) what can pika do against a desynched IC doing at least one blizzard? 2) What is nana most likely to do after missing a tech? How long will she stay on the ground? What are pikas best options to cover these scenarios? 3) Which of pikas moves will knock one IC out of squal? etc. Ive spent a little time researching, mostly in practice mode separating nana and seeing what she will do or how she reacts to different things, and what influence popo can have on her.

1) If the IC's is a nub, a t-jolt will desync them and you can rush in to finish nana. Wing it. If it is someone like lain or something, a partner short hop u-air will almost shut off ANY vulnerability that the IC's have (even against aerial t-jolts). That is mainly the bread and butter, so there is very little opening for pika to rush in without a lucky t-jolt.

2) Nana missing a tech (popo close) will depend on the buffer of popo. Nana missing a tech (popo far) is rarer because nana often jumps or iceblocks by default depending on her height. If she genuinely misses the tech, it often turns into a get up attack so you must shield it and punish. She stays on the ground for a set amount of time. If either the opponent or popo gets close though, she gets up sooner. Expect the get-up attack or stand up and fast-fall a f-air>u-air/d-smash or your usual bread and butter to kill her.

3) Anything will knock IC's out of squall (including t-jolt) so long as it is not early at their startup. The problem is you need to READ their DI and the hitbox of side-b is somewhat disjointed and lasts a long time. There is a learning curve in learning how to avoid the hitboxes while at the same time trailing it. If you ever face any good ness or lucus main or a crazy sonic up-b and recovery mindgames, it is about the same type of learning curve. I usually wait for them to land on teh stage/platform and charge a f-smash. If they go for the ledge, i usually dash attack and then fastfall a f-air offstage to gimp their recovery (depending on their damage hitstun).

4) Nana gets owned offstage/on the ledge. When getting up, they are pretty much desynced for sure, and if you mindgame a jab on them while on the ledge, it can be an easy gimp.

my 4 cents.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

updating with personal MLG experience.

1) even a "small" type of lag is amazing when fighting against IC's. Gotta luv MLG. (half-j/k)
2) IC's who don't make use of pivot grab are SO much easier to fight against. Abuse d-air and confusing cross-overs.
3) High risk = High reward (requires multiplication by "skill")
4) b-air against IC's in the air is so much fun and good. If you DI so that one IC gets out and the other one is sent away, that is GOLD!

 

[Pikabunz]

I think ESAM might be right on this being even. I'm really starting to get the hang of this MU. Pika is soooo good at killing Nana.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Pika is beast at killing nana.

I like how people listen to me eventually :3

 

[Nicholas1024]

Pika is beast at killing nana.

I like how people listen to me eventually :3

Then start telling us that Pika has an advantage on MK.

Anyway, would this be a matchup that a semi-skilled pika might want to CP another character for? I know it might be even-ish at the highest level, but I don't trust myself to avoid grabs for a whole match.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

With the d-throw uair footstool it is probably 50:50.

Also, to answer your question, if you aren't comfortable getting away from grabs...what character ARE you comfortable in doing so? Pikachu is one of the best because of quick attack, so...most characters have LESS options to get away. One mis-shielded T-jolt means either a lot of % or death of nana, so it isn't that difficult.

 

[Pikabunz]

Dthrow>Uair isn't enough to change MUs.

 

[Ussi]

If ESAM wins MLG Dallas with it, it' gonna be hard to not believe.

 

[Roller]

It's definitely ICs favor. But honestly, whose "favor" it is, is just semantics. Discuss what to look out for/what should be done in the matchup. It's more helpful.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I like how you say it is in IC favor without any back-ups...

 

[Roller]

Myself and others have backed it up already, I'm not reiterating points that have already been made in the same thread.

 

[The Truth!]

I still think pika does best on FD of all neutrals. No overhead for thunder and lots of space to move around. Being on a platform isnt really a great position for pikachu in terms of safety, especially vs ICs. He is amazing at punishing people on platforms, but Ice Climbers are generally not going to be up there. Of course that is assuming you arent going to run away and camp the whole matchup.

 

[Pikabunz]

Skullbash seems useful in this MU. After you separate them, you can start charging SB in the direction that Nana is running to and release anytime after she runs past you. This will either kill her or send her far off stage forcing Popo to go off stage and save her. Another use is to predict their side-b recovery and start charging SB then release as soon as they hit the ground. Again, this will either kill one of them or separate them. SB > IC's side-b

 

[Roller]

Anther has told me he prefers FD vs the ICs, but honestly Anther has as much solid IC experience as anybody and knows the matchup like the back of his hand. If you have any doubts at all on the mu, I wouldn't pick FD. You will probably wind up landing in an unsafe way at somepoint, or not know how to deal with some of their shenanigans and get grabbed.

 

[tibs7]

I'm also starting to sway toward esam on this....buuuuut I still say it's ic's favor.
Nana **** is so good.

 

[Nicholas1024]

With the d-throw uair footstool it is probably 50:50.

Also, to answer your question, if you aren't comfortable getting away from grabs...what character ARE you comfortable in doing so? Pikachu is one of the best because of quick attack, so...most characters have LESS options to get away. One mis-shielded T-jolt means either a lot of % or death of nana, so it isn't that difficult.

Does that even work against the paired IC's? I'd have thought whichever one you couldn't grab could mess it up with an attack.

Also, I think Snake gets out of a lot of grabs thanks to his grenades, right? That, or I suppose I could choose MK and try planking for 8 minutes. (I'm not exactly comfortable with any character vs the IC's... it's the one matchup that really scares me.)

 

[Roller]

@Nicholas, That first part of ESAM's quote was directed at the Pika vs MK matchup.

You are correct that snakes can have a grenade in hand which would stop most ICs from cging, but IC players are starting to pick up the grenade with one climber, and throw it away as snake is being thrown down by the other. But this is difficult and as of now, very few players make use of it.

 

[linkisthebest123]

First off, Esam is a god. Before I say anything else, I'm clarifying that I'm not saying Esam ****ed up in the crew battle. He did work. He's pretty much the most amazing thing I've ever seen in a pika main. However, when playing against 9b, he could have done things that would have made his play more... efficient.

The most important thing I saw was when nana was off the stage far away, and popo was on the ledge and pika was very near said ledge.

I don't remember exactly what Esam did, but I know what he didn't do.

I haven't read this thread fully, so idk if this is mentioned yet, BUT,

if Ice Climbers are on the ledge, if you space it so your jab is barely touching out above the edge, ice climbers can not do ANYTHING but drop directly down. If Esam had done this, he would have had probably around 2 gimps and killed 9b earlier in his stocks.

I haven't studied the hitboxes or anything like that, HOWEVER, I have a lot of experience with this mu (maybe not the highest level ice climber exp, but I'm only talking about this situation).

Doing this can easily catch Ice Climber mains off guard and cause early percent gimps.


Other than this, Esam played the MU perfectly (Being extremely campy, to aggro grabs randomly). I applaud him for being the most amazing pikachu main I have ever seen.

I noticed a few other things he could have done differently, but this was the main one.


Also Mikehaze sucks.


-Brick