Matchup Re-Discussion: Ice Climbers

[KayLo!]

Pikachu vs. Ice Climbers
( Link to central matchup thread. )

Resources for discussion:

Current MU Ratio (subject to change after discussion): 46:54 in ICs' favor
Can we CG them?: No

Our Original Matchup Thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=224802
Their Matchup Opinion/Thread: 45:55 in ICs' favor, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188700 (outdated)

Pikachu Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=223901
ICs Frame Data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228027

Summary:

In progress.

 

[Syko_Lemming]

My personal strategy is to split them with downsmash and keep them separated. Anything you can do to separate them is where you get the most damage in.

When you get a grab there are two good options: back or forward. Forward deals damage to popo if he's standing right in front of you, and he's gotten used to sheilding once you've grabbed, back throw should be quick enough to separate them without getting hit. If popo comes running at you blindly when you throw nana, dsmash - it solves everything.

Getting in close is the hard part. The only way I can see getting in once they start the desync'd blizzard is to full jump then quick attack above, and directly down into them, upair and take it from there... and that'll probably only work once or twice.

Thunder Jolts go straight through the icey's blizzard, but not the ice blocks. If there's two ice blocks the second one will just get through.

 

[Junior2Gamer]

Dsmash is a pretty good way on separating the ice climbers. I would rely on spacing with Fsmash and Tjolts to avoid getting grabbed. Ice climber's CG and their smash are pretty devastating so I would watch out for that.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

can any of pikachus aerials separate them?

 

[M15t3R E]

Don't be within their grab range for more than a split second at a time, and even then keep that to a minimum. You'll need to practice your air game against this duo. Or do what Anther does and edgeplay for three quarters of the match. =O
Keep them separated! One tactic is to d-smash or n-air to separate and occasionally you may see it fit to run up to one of the pair and immediately b-throw. It works as a quick separating attack. Contrary to conventional wisdom, you should beat the living bejesus out of Nana once they are adequately separated. She's controlled by computer AI while she tries to get back to Popo, so she's a sitting duck if you know what you're doing.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

50:50.

Pikachu is one of the easiest characters to CG in the game. Once an IC gets a grab, you shouldn't be getting out and you should be dead. However, Pikachu has the speed and the above-par separation/killing nana techniques to deal with it quite well.

WHEN THEY ARE TOGETHER:

In the air:

In the air, Pikachu should generally be winning. Pikachu will generally be in the air, but we should never be directly above them. We should be at a diagonal so that we can fair/T-jolt them. If we send them up, Pikachu definitely has the tools to **** them. Fair, uair, nair, and bair (it separates) **** them. Fair and Bair will be your best bets, just make sure you hit them. If you miss, do anything but land next to them. This is a match that I will definitely QA away. However, you shouldn't QAC that much because if the IC knows what they are doing, they will grab you in your phantom lag. That won't be pretty...

On the Ground:

We flat-out lose. Every single attack we have can be grabbed except for u-tilt and D-tilt only if they are perfectly spaced. Leave the ground game for when you are fighting popo alone/destroying nana.

Separated (Nana still alive)

Obviously, Popo will try to get his ***** back. Most ICs will not be very discreet with this, and just charge at you and hope to get a grab/Dash attack. A lot of the time waiting for them will work. Use fast attacks to keep popo away and then **** nana.

On the ground:

Pikachu has F-tilt, D-tilt, F-smash, and U-smash to keep nana away from popo. If popo is charging at you, use quick attacks. You don't need to own popo at this point. Once nana is dead (another section) we can have more fun. In this part we shouldn't really be on the ground that much.

In the air:

This is where we should be when they are separated. Nair, bair, uair, and dair all **** nana. The constant hitboxes (assuming popo isn't directly under us) can hit popo away too. He can't do much unless he is directly underneath us, so constantly be on the move. Don't get cocky assuming that popo won't hit you. Always be careful. you don't want them to join. Thunder is god at this point btw. If the position is Nana_____Pikachu____Popo you can run towards nana, jump and thunder. Nana will run into it because the AI says to get back to popo. Popo can't do anything about it but maybe shield, and then nana is high in the air, susceptible to another thunder (you will get punished, but its a solo-po punish).

Killing Nana:

One thing about pikachu is that he is the most proficient nana-killer in the game. IF they are on opposite sides of you (Nana___Pikachu____Popo) thunder will destroy her. Assuming she is in the air (she almost always is since all of our separating moves make her airborne) thunder will send her straight up. Since she doesn't momentum cancel and doesn't air-dodge, she will get hit by thunder after thunder. If popo is too far, nana is literally dead.

The main thing in this part of the matchup is to not get too cocky

Spoiler

STAR FOX

You can and will get grabbed/sent off the stage if you aren't careful. This puts it back to IC advantage.

Popo Alone

Popo has a CG on us from like 0-40, and it ends with a F-smash. That is some hefty damage, but he can't really do anything other than that. The best strategy would be to just avoid him and do little damage to time him out (assuming we are on same stock nana dead). This is the one part of the match-up where ledge-camping is good. If there is no ledgegrab rule, RUN TO IT. Be careful not to get hit with blizzard and ice blocks, but that is about it. IC will not risk going off the level to hit you since they don't want to die. If they are going to intentionally die so you can't time them out, you are up a stock every time you kill nana. It is a win-win situation for us.

Honestly Popo can't do anything to us. He can kill us at like 140%, but he won't be racking damage because we don't have to be scared. We get hit once...k. Go to the ledge and then wait for him. If we are losing, popo can't do much to get out of our combos. As long as we aren't above him we are good. His other aerials kinda suck.

So yeah, we lost when they are together, but we **** otherwise. We are still the best nana-killer in the game. That is why, IMO, it is 50:50.

 

[Scissors Sir]

If you're being pesky on that diagonal ESAM spoke about and you manage to make them whiff a grab/attack

footstool-> nair

it only works when both climbers are present. What will happen is your footstool will stun one of them and the nair will pop the other away from the footstooled climber

these openings come up more often after you've stopped a couple desync blizzard/ice block approaches with jolts

 

[Smoom77]

Pikachu is one of the easiest characters to CG in the game.

I agree with everything, but...


WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?

>_>

 

[Sieguest]

I find myself using a lot of Bair in this match up. I'm not sure if any of Pika's aerials can get past Bair if spaced correctly, it goes through tjolt and I find it great to come in with if you space it correctly.
I also feel the DD desync does well in closing space between ICs and Pika and putting on some potential desync pressure if we're close enough.
I'd think ICs would be able to out camp Pika since we have the other IB if tjolt hits one of them and desynced IBs can make it a little harder to find a landing spot if Pika is coming from the air with tjolt. I find squall great to punish whiffed moves if I feel I can't get the grab. And then the grab....
Methinks ESAM hit a lot of the stuff to, Pika has a lot of tools to get Nana away from us and gets stuff rolling downhill (dsmash comes to mind). And if we whiff our spacing we're in for some punishment/Nana's blondeness revealed. As long as we play a safe, and relatively aggressive game while keeping Nana with us we're on good footing.
Just my two cents... (that and running some things through group mode >.>)
lol@Smoom

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Oh yeah, you guys can outcamp us. It doesn't work unless we are coming from above (Like on BF platforms) but then we are susceptible to uair since our aerial mobility isn't that high.

I agree with everything, but...


WHAT IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN?

>_>

I thought Pikachu was one of the easiest timings for lightweight?

 

[Sieguest]

I thought Pikachu was one of the easiest timings for lightweight?

The ease of a character to be CG'd is kind of dependent on the player. I personally can't CG Pikachu, Ness, or Ike to save my life, but I nail Peach, Kirby and some others with ease x.x

 

[Smoom77]

Oh yeah, you guys can outcamp us. It doesn't work unless we are coming from above (Like on BF platforms) but then we are susceptible to uair since our aerial mobility isn't that high.



I thought Pikachu was one of the easiest timings for lightweight?

The ease of a character to be CG'd is kind of dependent on the player. I personally can't CG Pikachu, Ness, or Ike to save my life, but I nail Peach, Kirby and some others with ease x.x

Exactly. I can do Pikachu and Ike fine, but I dislike others.

There is no easiest character to chaingrab. Lain doesn't drop his grabs against Anther because he plays Anther so much that he knows the timing.

 

[xExile]

I find Pikachu to be an easy enough matchup. But I do agree with down smash being a good way to keep us separated. I have a friend that plays Pikachu and I get to play him just about everyday. From what I recall from our matches I'd avoid fair and dair. It may be the Pikachu I'm playing but when my friend uses them I get a grab and if it's not a stock I get him up to high percent. Oh and while dsmash is good for separating good players will probably DI out of it. I think it's difficult to approach ICs in this matchup. At least it's that's the way I seems from the friend I play with. Hope this helps.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

if you QAC away, just dont jump and you wont have phantom lag. just land, and you can run away

 

[Pika_Cam]

50:50 is laughable. With our terrible grab range, we have an almost 70:30 matchup on Fox because we can 0-death him. Fair enough. We call Falco 65:35 for the same reason. But when we ourselves are faced with a character that has an easy 0-death cg on us, we call the MU 50:50? Let's be more consistent at least.

It's not exactly like we can camp our way out of it either, since one ice block takes out the tjolt and the other one goes through. ICs can outcamp Pika and force some sort of approach, which is already a bad thing. I think this is a terrible MU for Pikachu. It is winnable but rather brutal nonetheless.

 

[ElNoNombreHombre]

50:50 is laughable. With our terrible grab range, we have an almost 70:30 matchup on Fox because we can 0-death him. Fair enough. We call Falco 65:35 for the same reason. But when we ourselves are faced with a character that has an easy 0-death cg on us, we call the MU 50:50? Let's be more consistent at least.

It's not exactly like we can camp our way out of it either, since one ice block takes out the tjolt and the other one goes through. ICs can outcamp Pika and force some sort of approach, which is already a bad thing. I think this is a terrible MU for Pikachu. It is winnable but rather brutal nonetheless.

I'm not quite sure the same logic applies, as there are three rather important points to consider:

1. They also have craptastic grab range. They can pretty much only get it on a mistake/baited attack.
2. Their CG requires both ICs to be in play, and we have several decent tools to separate/kill Nana.
3. Conversely, our CG is always a threat, as we need no one else to pull it off.

I don't doubt the advantage in a camping war is in the ICs favor, but is it really enough to compel an approach (especially if there are platforms available), assuming we're not behind? That is, could we just play "don't get grabbed" all day?

I dislike this matchup because it becomes more of a game of "can you separate Nana?" Success pretty much means you take their stock, a mistake means you lose yours.

I can honestly see any ratio (relative to Pika) from 50:50 to 30:70 justified here depending on how much you weigh 1 mistake = 1 stock vs how easily we can separate/kill Nana.

Meh, but all I've ever played is like two competent ICs, and all on WiFi, so my thoughts probably aren't worth much.

 

[Pika_Cam]

I'm not quite sure the same logic applies, as there are three rather important points to consider:

1. They also have craptastic grab range. They can pretty much only get it on a mistake/baited attack.
2. Their CG requires both ICs to be in play, and we have several decent tools to separate/kill Nana.
3. Conversely, our CG is always a threat, as we need no one else to pull it off.

I don't doubt the advantage in a camping war is in the ICs favor, but is it really enough to compel an approach (especially if there are platforms available), assuming we're not behind? That is, could we just play "don't get grabbed" all day?

I dislike this matchup because it becomes more of a game of "can you separate Nana?" Success pretty much means you take their stock, a mistake means you lose yours.

I can honestly see any ratio (relative to Pika) from 50:50 to 30:70 justified here depending on how much you weigh 1 mistake = 1 stock vs how easily we can separate/kill Nana.

Meh, but all I've ever played is like two competent ICs, and all on WiFi, so my thoughts probably aren't worth much.

The same logic applies at least as far as Falco goes. Falco has everything going for him, including grab range, until he gets grabbed himself (ok, Pika has a better recovery). But Falco is hard to approach because of his superior camping game. He has an easier time getting grabs/combos on us, and yet we have a cg on him that can lead to death. My point is that we aren't being consistent if we call that 65:35 and this 50:50, even if you factor in that ICs needs Nana to get the cg.

If ICs are smart, they can wait and land a pivot grab when we get tired of our futile camping and try to approach. My opinion is that it is much easier for them to land one grab than for us to separate and kill Nana.

All of that being said, I concur that one of the best strategies is to do a quick run up and back throw to separate them. I've also seen Anther short hop airdodge to dsmash behind them. And I guess we could try to space some fairs so we stay out of grab range, but that is rather risky. I guess everything is risky though when one grab = death.

Although the ledge is usually our best friend, I have found myself rather annoyed with ice blocks when trying to play the ledge in this matchup.

 

[Scissors Sir]

Pika Cam. I understand where you're coming from. But only ONE person suggested 50:50 as the ratio.

Not to turn this into a personal attack (please don't take it as such)

I think the matchup is 55:45

Anytime a character is in a position where he/she/it has to make fewer mistakes than the opponent, I think it automatically keeps the matchup from being 50:50.

 

[M15t3R E]

Back when I lived in VA, I'd friendly meepxzero most tournaments. He is, by tournament rankings, the best IC in the country and unless he got his awesome grabs on me, he wasn't a pain in the neck to face. Be VERY careful how you approach, because one false step will mean your demise.

 

[KayLo!]

Cam, I think you're weighting the CG a bit too heavily. I understand the point you're trying to make, but Pikachu has the ability to safely play outside of the ICs' grab range.

Is it easy? No. But it's possible. Anther vs. Lain is a good example of this.

By your logic, most of the cast would get dominated by the ICs, which isn't the case.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

if you QAC away, just dont jump and you wont have phantom lag. just land, and you can run away

If you don't jump after a QA it isn't a QAC, just a QA. Don't confuse the too. If you don't CANCEL the QUICK ATTACK with a jump it isn't a QUICK ATTACK CANCEL.

Thank you.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

good point lol

 

[Pika_Cam]

I was making the point that we need to have consistency, given that we judge matchups in our favor very heavily on the chaingrabs. Yeah, only one person suggested that it is 50:50, but that same person was saying on the Falco boards the other day that the cg makes it 65:35 Pikachu. I guess that inconsistency just got under my skin. If you don't think it's 50:50 then I wasn't disagreeing with you.

Never said it was impossible to beat ICs with Pikachu, but I think it's difficult. No matchup is impossible. I think it's around 40:60 in ICs favor.

No, my logic is more that Pikachu doesn't have a lot of long range attacks, so Pikachu thrives on playing up close and personal. Other characters like Diddy, Snake, and MK don't have as much trouble approaching/camping against ICs. If it is a top level ICs, I think most of the cast should get dominated though.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

We have more tools to deal with IC's CG than Falco/fox have to deal with ours. We get a grab its done. IC have to get a grab when both popo and nana are near each other/synced. As I said in my post, they have the advantage when both are alive. However, that isn't the whole match. Pikachu has many moves to separate (Fair, bair, D-smash are the best) and then the matchup goes HEAVILY in pikachu's favor since solo-po is a really sub-par character. Coupled with Pikachu's ability to kill nana really easily with thunder, it becomes 50-50. If it was as easy to get CGs as IC than it is to get CGs with Pika then yeah it would be bad for us, but there are just a lot of other circumstances. Stage tilting also effects the CGs (Lylat/Yoshis)

 

[Pika_Cam]

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you there. Anyway, I think we should focus less on ratio right now and more on strategy.

Can Nana DI out of the dsmash if they are still synced?

 

[Stealth Raptor]

yeah they can. if you are used to timing it, it may be hard for nana to get out cause she reacts after you input a button. if you just blindly mash she will get out just fine

 

[KayLo!]

Which moves do we have that're safe on shield vs. ICs?

On most stages, they definitely outcamp us, so we have to approach or at least close in enough that they can't use Ice Blocks..... which moves do you guys use, and which do you avoid once you're within the mid/close-range zone?

 

[gamesuxcard]

I play goyfs eye cees a lot and he plays pretty gay. all you can really do in this matchup is space. Buffer your tjolts out of your jump or double jump them. If you're ahead in percent, make them approach you. I know it's gay, but you really do need it in this matchup. Nair or dair nana if she's in the air desynched from popo. She always falls for your bair but it takes so long popo can be already running at you by the time it's over from the other side of the stage. make thunder walls when they're coming back, but be low do you dont get caught by the side b. If you know he's going to over b on to the stage space a fsmash, it's your best punish because getting them off the stage. While they're off you can play with aerials off the stage or play the safer game and tjolt from the stage. This is awesome because you can spark on in the head and try to mess up their recovery. If you go off the stage for an aerial watch out for the uair because it beats us most of the time when we're above them, if you see it airdodge through it and nair out of it, but dont fasfall it or you could end up dead.

You need a stage with platforms. I like smashville because it moves but if you feel more comfortable with BF go for it. Yoshi's is also awesome becuase the ground is leveled and it messes up their ice blocks.

Um, I can't think of much more specifics so I'll just watch out for questions and try to answer them. I've played this matchup a lot so I hope I can halp :D

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

D-tilt is safe on shield if you space it correctly...that is all I know of. Maybe F-smash since it is F-smash.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

DONT FSMASH! i dont think its safe on shield even when spaced correctly, plus its slow enough they can pshield it and then all bets are off

 

[PZ]

Spaced ftilts and dtilts work good in this mu. Dair and nair are great aerials in this mu. Dsmash is a godsend in this matchup. Recomended throw would be fthrow and bthrow. Well I dont play ICs at all so I dont know much.( lack of wifi and tornament access=0%)

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

They can Shield all the D-smash and you get ****ed up.

 

[PZ]

They can Shield all the D-smash and you get ****ed up.

Hey remeber the 6 frame difference goodbye sister.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

they can still shield it. best used to punish only if you know they cant shield it. even if only popo grabs you, he can solo cg you at low percents till nana gets back. also make sure that you havent lost your jump while getting cg'd, i got destroyed by hylian at genesis cause i lost my jumps and basically SD'd when i broke out off the ledge

 

[PZ]

they can still shield it. best used to punish only if you know they cant shield it. even if only popo grabs you, he can solo cg you at low percents till nana gets back. also make sure that you havent lost your jump while getting cg'd, i got destroyed by hylian at genesis cause i lost my jumps and basically SD'd when i broke out off the ledge

Like I said no experience and yea I think his buffered running cg goes pretty long. So this means use dsmash while their in the air or OOS.

 

[PikaPika!]

Don't get grabbed

 

[Hylian]

Hey remeber the 6 frame difference goodbye sister.

The good ic players have learned how to PS with both climbers consistently, despite the 6 frame difference. Dsmash is easy to get around.


Really, pikachu has a really really hard time hitting ice climbers without getting grabbed. And running away the whole match pikachu still generally loses because of IC's damage output.

The best thing you can do in this match-up is camp hard near the ledge, try to bait a mistake and kill nana as quickly as possible. Solo climber can CG pika to I believe the 60's.

I'll try to find some videos of me vs Kprime, I've played him a ton in tournament.

 

[PZ]

Isnt the best cp against ics for pikachu bf or brinstar?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

RC would be best. Brinstar is horrible for us, and the only part that really messes IC up is the lava. BF is not good. If we are losing now we have less options to approach because of the platforms.

 

[KayLo!]

Not only that, but their uair is ridiculously annoying if you're stuck up on a platform.