Matchup Re-Discussion: Ice Climbers

[Leaf.]

I like playing PS 1 against IC. Mostly when it comes to stage transitions, I can at least attempt to out camp on Fire, Water, and Earth. (If I'm thinking right, those there ARE PS1, right?)

RC really messes with me, so I don't have a lot of practice there. But I can see it being good.

 

[KayLo!]

I can at least attempt to out camp on Fire, Water, and Earth. (If I'm thinking right, those there ARE PS1, right?)

Fire and water yeah, but the "earth" stage is actually rock, lol.

Earth stage is on PS2. (The transformation with the mound of dirt and Diglett and ****.)

 

[Pika_Cam]

Only thing I'd be leery of with Rainbow Cruise is that spot at the top where ICs could get an early grab -> usmash kill because the ceiling is so low.

 

[gamesuxcard]

Now we can take them to PS2 and Green Greens!! Need I say moar?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Green Greens would actually be decent...but the low ceiling makes it stupid for them to kill us. Our camping won't work as well as theirs. The only advantage is the wind can mess up the CG...but thats about it.

 

[Leaf.]

@Kaylo-Earth, rock, w/e. All in the name of good camping trips.


Does the wind on GG mess with their ice blocks, too? I know hills do, but I don't know about the wind...

 

[gamesuxcard]

yeah I can see that esam I was just kinda posting still in giddyness over weird stages being legal. I was playing on ps2 today against some climbers and realized they're ice climbers, no traction different on ice. booo.

 

[Hylian]

Here we go:

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[The Truth!]

Pikachus real worst mu imo.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

wait didnt you used to think the IC matchup was pretty even? i do agree with what you said though

 

[The Truth!]

I still think its a manageable matchup, but IC's have just gotten better. Maybe if pikas become better at killing nana.

 

[Rizk18]

its so hard for me not to get grabbed,in other matches,if i dont want to get grabbed.60% of the time i dont get grabbed,but in this MU,the pressure FORCES me to approach and act stupid and get grabbed,i get grabbed soooo much in this MU,any tips for that?

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Why does pressure make you approach? Run the **** away. Camp as hard as you can. Don't choose FD and camp on platforms. If they are under you...run away. QA is faster than everything they can do lol.

 

[The Truth!]

I hope we can do this mu rediscussion again.

I was thinking that FD might be a better stage for us to really get at nana. I also think we havent really delved into how pika can mess with nana enough, I dont really see any pikas do this. Granted I havent seen many recent vids of ICs and Pika, but I get the feeling much hasnt changed.

 

[KayLo!]

This is the re-discussion thread..... and there're still a lot of characters to go before the next rotation, so talking about the MU here is your best bet.

Unless Werekill wants to redo the system I set up.

 

[Roller]

Alright, this matchup was probably the most discussed of all at the pikahouse. After discussing, and playing out the matchup numerous times. The pika house unanimously believes this to be a very difficult matchup for pikachu.

PikaPika! also made it explicitly clear to me that he thinks the matchup is awful. And he was the only pika I faced at Apex who could manage a winning record vs my ICs. LDPK and I only really went at it the first day, but I remember that being pretty even.

And my ICs are obviously not at the level of Lain, Hylian, swordguard, etc. Plus I was going on little to no sleep. Not good for ICs obv. Don't have a lot of time to post more on this mu right now, but other pikahouse guys.. Discuss.

EDIT: @Tag, definitely do NOT go to FD. I was murdering every pika I played there. Like, not even close. 2-3 stocks.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

platforms are a must.

If IC's rush, you have a slight advantage.

If IC's camp-spam-pivot-crap the entire match, good game, pika loses (unless you have more damage--very unlikely if you take u-airs).

Have the damage lead to force psychologial rushing and mistakes. Knick them with ANYTHING, followup the partner safely, practice your followup SO MUCH, so that one separation almost always equals a DEAD partner.

The 20% I think produces 80% of the results:
1) Separate them (they can't both u-air you AND grab you at the same time, platform-camp/rush mixup)
2) Kill partner during that time (hit partner first, then rush and grab the player and throw away from partner, then return to finish partner off [thunder is good]).
3) Know the hitbox and hurtboxes of double side-b. So many people NEVER punish double side-b enough and get hit and allow both of them back onto the stage, together.
4) Against single player grabs (most likely when you separate them and the player is buying time for partner to get back), KNOW HOW TO MASH OUT. spin the control stick round and round as fast as you can and slide your fingers/knuckles up and down, pressing Y, X, B, A, C-stick over and over again.
5) t-jolt goes through blizzard; iceblocks can't hit you when you are jumping; QAC is faster than IC's run.
6) try to ENJOY the horrible matchup (mentality is a major part of winning).

EDIT: @Tag, definitely do NOT go to FD. I was murdering every pika I played there. Like, not even close. 2-3 stocks.

Whoa, while you did murder me almost all of the times I went there, I do believe I won against your IC's ONCE on FD with pika ^_^. Regardless, I still agree, don't pick that stage people.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I beat Fizzle's IC on that stage :D

I honestly don't think the match is that bad.

If it goes to a camping match, it is even. We can get an occasional T-jolt and we might get hit by an Ice block or a blizzard. We shouldn't be getting grabbed and nana shouldn't be dying.

Pika has a ton of options up close, you just have to be quick with them and make sure they work. Everything is punishable but to the human reaction speed it is really really difficult. We can B-throw one of them. It is F-smashable, but it is actually hard to do it on reaction.

I still think this match-up is even...

 

[KayLo!]

ESAM, are you talking with or without a LGL?

Whether you can plank or not is a notable factor in this matchup.

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Esam went name dropping.

^Yup^ I lost because I rushed pikachu on the edge and he got a clutch gimp on my Nana. (I still haven't finished brushing off all the salt yet.) So planking could make a difference if you don't mess up or the ICs are impatient. This is a weird matchup that I've only played one game of so I'm not really an expert, but Pika has to put himself into so many unsafe situations, I feel like ICs win (on most starters). Lain Lain Lain Anther Anther Anther

@Esam I checked and Lucario's jab followups can be avoided sometimes with good DI, sorry it took me 3 months to get back to you. Oh yeah, full hop nair is sooo hard for ICs to punish. If there's a platform, you're completely safe.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If there isn't an LGL it is in Pika's favor 55:45, without it is even.

 

[Roller]

Planking isn't that great of an idea if the ICs know what they're doing. They can just keep a perpetual blizzard wall going just off the edge that will hit pika if he's trying to just use the edge to stall and jolt. Unless you mean to just plank indefinitely without necessarily jumping off and up jolting. In which case you need to be very mindful of the ledgegrab limit.

EDIT: Also, no offense intended to your buddy, but one game against an ICs that doesn't know the pika mu at all isn't really the best basis for judging how the mu works.

 

[KayLo!]

...........That's why I mentioned the LGL, lol. Planking =/= just tjolt planking.

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

EDIT: Also, no offense intended to your buddy, but one game against an ICs that doesn't know the pika mu at all isn't really the best basis for judging how the mu works.

I totally agree. That's why I brought it (it=my lack of knowledge) up.
Very few people play a lot of this matchup, but I hope one stops by for you guys (seriously, someone should message lain).

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

I have a local IC that knows the match-up pretty well. I beat him more than he beats me. The only thing that ever makes me lose is being indecisive. If I rush in, make a choice, and stick to it, Pikachu has the tools to beat it. Being indecisive WILL kill you in this match. If you are going in, go in hard. If you are camping, pitch a tent for 5 days straight.

 

[The Truth!]

Also, ICs are significantly easier to use at and against midlevel play, the matchup changes significantly when you play someone who knows what theyre doing and are capable of putting it into action.

I think a big reason stages like FD fail is because no one bothers figure out how to kill nana, while realistically stages without overhead are the easiest for pika to do so. Of course thats irrelevant if people dont know how to do it.

 

[KayLo!]

Also, ICs are significantly easier to use at and against midlevel play, the matchup changes significantly when you play someone who knows what theyre doing and are capable of putting it into action.

Besides a handful of characters, that's the case for any matchup, lol.

 

[Roller]

Again, I'm no Hylian or Lain, both of whom have a ton of mu experience, but I'd say out of all the ICs matchups I have most experience playing vs pika. I played countless times vs all the pikas at the pika house, ldpk (who is a PR'ed pika), FZ I had a MM against along with an extraordinary number of friendlies, Kenny I MM'd twice, Leaf I played a number of times, Pharrox, Mister_E I played at least 2-3 times vs his pika, Artemis, and PikaPika!.

I really feel that if the ICs know what they're doing pikas have to strongly outplay the IC player in order to win. imo the ICs can outcamp pika with desynched IBs and/or properly timed attacks to negate jolts (which is not difficult to do, and most of the ICs attack can stop a jolt.)

And when it comes to approaching, if the ICs can find one read on you, you're in trouble. Because if the ICs know what you're planning to do when you get close, you're getting grabbed.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

If pika has one read on IC it is nana death.

(Predict spotdodge) SH dair separate, follow up nana with another SH dair, run and nair, thunder.

(Predict grab) Sidestep D-smash, thunder thunder thunder.

2 examples.

 

[tibs7]

esam the same can be said for pika though :S
predicted spotdodge is grab
predicted grab is sidestep t grab

but our mistakes being more costly.
IC's win here.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Just because it is more difficult for the Pikachu to play the match correctly doesn't mean that when playing correctly it is more difficult for Pikachu.

 

[tibs7]

it means we have to work harder in this MU.
how can a MU be even if one character has to work significantly harder than the to win.

work harder = more patience, no room for error.

 

[The Truth!]

I dont think working hard really affects that. In tournament you assume both players are working their hardest, otherwise its johns.

Roller I wasnt criticizing you, as has been mentioned ICs can go easy mode on 99% of players and still win. Its the people you're fighting that matter more. If they know the matchup to a certain point it becomes distinctly more difficult. I mention it with ICs above others because the change is very drastic. Whereas with other characters there is a clear gradient middle ground, with ICs its more along the lines of people either not knowing/being able to do what they need to and getting destroyed, or the opposite and making it a challenge, with virtually no middle ground between those points.

For instance, even knowing two things like mashing out fast and being able to proficiently kill nana if shes offstage can change a match from 3 stock to a close game or worse. Its rare you find singular things that most people dont know how to do and changes the mu drastically, but ICs have quite a few of those.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

If pika has one read on IC it is SHOULD BE nana death.
.

There... the real emphasis for the pika-IC's matchup. Practice it. ^_^

In my honest opinion, with rare exception, matchup tips concerning the IC's have always been a hit or miss type of thing. Playing a real game, it is a hit or miss. The only thing someone can rely on is outplaying the other (And having fun). Nuff said.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Well one grab SHOULD BE death for us (When they grab us). It isn't guaranteed, but it happens frequently.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

Well one grab SHOULD BE death for us (When they grab us). It isn't guaranteed, but it happens frequently.

Yes. Precisely the point: pika needs to reach a point where separation incites the same magnitude of fear in IC's as their chaingrab does on us. More often than not, pika's don't know how to effectively KILL nana while most IC mains/secondaries religiously practice the infinite.

How about a tutorial video of "how to own the lil' *****?" lol ^_^

 

[KayLo!]

I think this thread's getting a little off-track...... try to stick to discussing the matchup, not how well Pika/ICs players generally know the matchup or how easy it is to play the matchup effectively. Just assume both players know it as well as possible.

@ESAM/LDPK: Since it sounds like most Pikas don't know how to kill Nana in the most efficient way possible, how's it done? ESAM gave one example, but y'all might as well go more in-depth.

.........I don't use Pika for this matchup, just trying to keep things on-topic lol.

 

[Legendary Pikachu]

I think this thread's getting a little off-track...... try to stick to discussing the matchup, not how well Pika/ICs players generally know the matchup or how easy it is to play the matchup effectively. Just assume both players know it as well as possible.

Lol, you can't help but moderate huh?

@ESAM/LDPK: Since it sounds like most Pikas don't know how to kill Nana in the most efficient way possible, how's it done? ESAM gave one example, but y'all might as well go more in-depth.

.........I don't use Pika for this matchup, just trying to keep things on-topic lol.

Maybe the hit-bubble data of IC's grabs can be useful. Is there a way to display hurtboxes AND hit-bubbles of TWO characters? If there is not an application that can do that, that maybe VERY interesting projects for our obsessed hacking community. ^_^

Shield-hit-lag and shield slide from pikachu's attacks might also shed light into whether pikachu has ANY safe-on-shield approaches without getting shield grabbed.

Just actually PLAY an IC's main for a while. Pikachu's should not be missing thunders on nana (she can't freakin see it coming)--yet i've seen a few times, pika's just miss the thunder. Nana will ALWAYS DI towards popo in a rythmic fashion. Pika's shouldn't be missin' thunders. Watch videos and just plain hit nana away and get a feel for how she runs back to popo. Pika's should be able to run and grab or pivot and grab nana while she's running past you, doing ice blocks or something while getting back to popo.

ESAM pretty much explained some of best 'reads'. You could also advance with retreating d-air > f-tilt/d-tilt. In order to get close enough to punish the f-tilt/d-tilt, IC's need read a 'retreating' d-air. If they rush all the way, an advancing d-air should get them (35%+ you should have frame advantage to get nana safely in some sort of fashion). Punish blizzards with t-jolt if they start walling with it. If you find them blocking most of the time, when you are doing your passive-agressive d-air cycles (or anything else for that matter), throw in a straight up grab>b-throw or f-throw (f-throw works AMAZINGLY if you throw them offstage cuz the f-throw hitbox zaps lift up the other IC). If you have platforms, there are different 'reads' pika can do. When the IC's start advancing under (for the u-air), just read their foxtrots. I think a cross-up f-air will be safe if you read the beginning of a foxtrot under a platform. Pivot-grabs counter the cross-up f-air. However, a landed>f-tilt/d-tilt on IC's whiffed pivot grab may be decent punish.

I'd also like to comment that many IC mains lose focus on defending "THEMSELVES" while separated from their partners. Upon the first separation, you can often knock nana away, turn away and rush grab popo > throw > turn around and resume owning nana. It is a psychological thing--I remember nailing the grab everytime against Roller and Smasher's IC's. If the popo does defend himself, spotdodge, or shield, then if you read it, you have all the more time to finish nana off. it's much like what a MK partner in teams will do against a opponent's partner when attempting to double team the other opponent.

When the IC's are both offstage, thunder or f-smash will eat through side-b. B-air offstage is good if you space and time it right. Wavebounced thunders could also mean the difference between finishing nana off or letting her live (I hate it when popo stops pika from finishing nana off. Just make a wall to own nana and stay on the opposite side as popo. If popo can run past it, wavebounce it and then you are still safe from interruption).

I still think this is a frustrating matchup. We haven't even gotten to the subject of insane solo popo's. Hey ESAM, get a video of you playing Lain or somethin'. Most of the videos we currently have are of us LOSING.

 

[Roller]

I think the discussion is staying fairly on topic.. moreso than most pika threads *cough*apexthread*cough*

But I agree that a video tutorial on how to fight the ICs would be a great idea.

Roller I wasnt criticizing you, as has been mentioned ICs can go easy mode on 99% of players and still win. Its the people you're fighting that matter more. If they know the matchup to a certain point it becomes distinctly more difficult. I mention it with ICs above others because the change is very drastic. Whereas with other characters there is a clear gradient middle ground, with ICs its more along the lines of people either not knowing/being able to do what they need to and getting destroyed, or the opposite and making it a challenge, with virtually no middle ground between those points.

For instance, even knowing two things like mashing out fast and being able to proficiently kill nana if shes offstage can change a match from 3 stock to a close game or worse. Its rare you find singular things that most people dont know how to do and changes the mu drastically, but ICs have quite a few of those.

I agree with the vast majority of this post. I wouldn't say it is easy to beat 99% of people, lol but I get where you're coming from. This definitely is a VERY different mu when both players know all the needed tips and tricks for the mu. Which is rare. But I've got to say, PikaPika! knows EXACTLY what he is doing in this mu. Someone should really reach out to him and get him to share his 2 cents. I'll text him once I get back to the country (and to my phone =] ) if we can't get a hold of him before then.

ESAM, could you try to face one of the top ICs who knows the mu well at Raleigh or some other tourney you and lain/hylian are at sometime soon (on a non-laggy tv). I do give weight to what you are saying, but I think that you have yet to play a good ICs who knows what they're doing in the mu. I think one of them may be able to sway your opinion on the mu, and if not; if you are able to beat them pretty handily, then I will certainly change my views on the mu to what you are saying.
EDIT: Seems like ldpk (as well as I'm sure everyone else) would like to see the same thing.

 

[Fizzle_Boy]

Everyone is posting in such pretty colors! Carry on.