Matt07
Smash Master
I'll do a format a way of discussion later, and how we'll conclude it.
*Picture belongs to credited artist.*
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I agree, Mario has a reliable aerial [Mario tornado, ironic] ground [USmash], AND special [super Jump Punch] counter that beat Mach Tornado that I use all the time. Pretty much the only problems I have in this matchup are his aerials, since they are hard to beat. If Mario is kept in the air, he should not have any problem with Meta-Knights ground game.everything else is harder to handle than his Tornado lol.
nope not at all. the only reason MK wins on many other matchups because he HAS to tornado because it covers all options. I mean oos upb is pretty threatening too, but that's probably 2nd worst to fight against w/e. mario has the tools to fight metaknight anyways.God I hope you were trolling, everything else is harder to handle than his Tornado lol.
u shouldnt be getting hit by dsmash at all lol only when u make a dumb mistake but thats really it .Not only is Nado a threat, but so is the Shuttle loop, the Dsmash, his aerials, etc.
And then he spams d-air for 8 minutes.Wall of text.
FH and DJ fireballs deter nado approaches. Smart move on Xero's part imo.Man, this match up is unplayable for me. No other match up makes me feel so powerless, it's my personal worst MU. Other Marios seem to be able do alright (read, not get *****) against MK, I dunno how they do it.
Typically I try to stay on the ground vs MK because I'm scared to death of getting caught in the air and getting gimped. What's the best way to use fireballs here? I typically just camp SH fireballs, but it doesn't seem to work well. I know Xero uses FH and DJ fireballs, among other things. A lot of people seem to think that staying in the air is the best way for Mario to beat MK. True? Yes, no?
Olimar wins 55/45 overall (if you get the percent/stock lead and camp on it, which almost certainly will happen if you play against an Olimar who tries too hard to camp from the start, advantage swings to Mario's favor like 65/35 on platformed stages). It's not a bad or truly difficult matchup for Mario at all. G&W, Falco, and Marth are clearly worse matchups.UberMario said:In terms of difficulty, I'd say he's Mario's worst matchup, with "aggro" Olimar second and DeDeDe third.
Camping Olimars give me no trouble, it's when they play aggresively from the get-go . . . . . his U-Tilt, U-Smash, and U-Air are nasty. Interestingly, Meta-Knight has the opposite problem, he has trouble with camping Olimars, but can shred aggressive Olimars to bits.Olimar wins 55/45 overall (if you get the percent/stock lead and camp on it, which almost certainly will happen if you play against an Olimar who tries too hard to camp from the start, advantage swings to Mario's favor like 65/35 on platformed stages). It's not a bad or truly difficult matchup for Mario at all. G&W, Falco, and Marth are clearly worse matchups.
Yeah, Mario vs Olimar is a backwards matchup for Olimar. He actually wins by going aggro. Properly spaced B-airs can beat all of Olimar's attacks, but you have to watch out for his well-spaced aerials, which are more powerful than most of your attacks. His grab game, while mostly useless for actually camping Mario, is actually a GREAT tool for offensively juggling Mario. Generally speaking you want to avoid having to shield against Olimar since you don't punish him out of shield that hard most of the time, and spotdodging his grab requires precise reaction.Camping Olimars give me no trouble, it's when they play aggresively from the get-go . . . . . his U-Tilt, U-Smash, and U-Air are nasty. Interestingly, Meta-Knight has the opposite problem, he has trouble with camping Olimars, but can shred aggressive Olimars to bits.
Also, Metaknight. But yeah, I agree about it being nearly unwinnable. I'd put the ratio at 30:70 personally. Maybe even 25:75.Almost unwinnable matchup, i suggest using someone viable vs. metaknight. These characters include; Falco, Diddy, Marth, Snake.
It's definitely managable. It's just about hoping that your opponent doesn't know how to exploit your weaknesses and making them less apparant. You have to play a really really really really really weird way for the matchup to even feel managable. For instance, I stay at about mid-range (typically outside of Metaknight's range), and use fireballs and the like, trying to keep my moves spaced as well as possible. This works to an extent, but it's really not enough to win the matchup, I'm honestly not sure what else to do. Obviously you could keep pressure if you have it, but that sounds rather unsafe. If you get the gimp then go for it!!!!! A free stock is amazing.Guys, there HAS to be something Mario can do in this MU. Even if it comes down to reading and playing smart. I watch other low-tiers like Yoshi and Lucas go toe-to-toe with MK (in the hands of great players, but still). I'm not saying Mario's viable against MK, but I just hate to think that it's so hopeless. What about air grab-releases from the ledge? Idk, I'm just throwing stuff out there. There has to be SOME WAY for this to not be an auto win.
EDIT: Oof, good game Judge, you played that well. Great combo on the last stock, too. I thought you had him.
This is true for MK and is something that gives a flaw. He can't do too much when a character is in his face. His strengths more than make up for this. First, MK has the range and tools to avoid being barraged by jabs and things of that nature. He also has very fast moves to get him out of things like that. Also, things like that only go so far. The fact that we can really do some **** if we get in is what really makes this MU even have the slightest possibility of winning. I know exactly what you're talking about though. I did it in tourney once where at the beginning i did some crazy combo vid status things and just destroyed his first stock. Anti vs. Nairo is also a very good example.Just a thought on the MK MU. In all the videos I've been watching it seems that MK can't do much about Mario's jabs once you manage to get in range for them to hit. Just wanted opinions on this. If jabs are relatively safe, then there may be some interesting follow-ups that Mario can do. Thoughts?
Fair enough. I feel like an approach -> shield/perfect shield to a retaliation is mario's best bet generally. Is that accurate to say? As far as a mix up goes, I mean. Otherwise, I see this as a mostly defensive MU for Mario. Gimps are unreliable, combos are unreliable, so the only thing I can see as an option is shielding -> punishment.Approaching MK is a bad idea period imo, it's better to bait their approach with fireballs.