Matchup Discussion: Metaknight

[Inferno3044]

Usmash clanks with glide attack so if you wanna punish a glide, you have to position yourself correctly. It's possible and I've seen/done it a couple of times.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

The only way to beat Meta Knight to beg him to not **** us. That's all I got.

 

[hippiedude92]

The only way to beat Meta Knight to beg him to not **** us. That's all I got.

u should try doing this in person

lool

i guarteed u, theyll say yes, but still time u out anyways

just cuz theyre MK

 

[Rob_Gambino]

=( This thread is depressing.

 

[Inferno3044]

=( This thread is depressing.

Do you want me to add optimism?

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Do you want me to add optimism?

At least we're not Ganondorf!

 

[steep]

I saw an interesting video on power shield cancelling against MK's tornado. here's the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjFQtAubet4

Thoughts? I know it's very situational, given spacing must be perfect, but I thought maybe it could be useful.

 

[Juushichi]

That's cool, but it's not Nado that makes this MU horrible.

Don't care about the number, it's:

Starter: Disadv.
Mario CP: Disadv.
MK CP: Heavy Disadv.

 

[Calebyte]

Yeah, the whole community has been buzzing about PSC lately. Definitely a good tech to learn. I wonder if you can cape out of PSC? That could be worth looking at.

Juu's right though, nado isn't what makes the MK matchup terrible. MK has so many options against Mario, this won't affect the MU all that much. However, I think this might be a bigger deal for DK mains, since nado is the biggest reason MK wins that matchup.

 

[Coolwhip]

@calebyte: PSC? What's that bro?

 

[Calebyte]

New AT. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294888

 

[Juushichi]

Cape is too slow, Caleb.

 

[Inferno3044]

That's cool, but it's not Nado that makes this MU horrible.

Don't care about the number, it's:

Starter: Disadv.
Mario CP: Disadv.
MK CP: Heavy Disadv.

It's a heavy disadvantage regardless. 3:7 is basically unwinnable in competitive play.

 

[Coolwhip]

New AT. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=294888

I grin ear to ear when i saw the video.

 

[Matador]

This matchup isnt as hopeless as u guys are suggesting. Its hard, and you have to put in the effort of finding out when hes vulnerable and what you can punish with, but the bottom line is that mario CAN do this matchup.

I believe the way Anti played the matchup vs Nairo was generally the way to go...abundant use of nair and fireball mix-ups, doing GUARANTEED followups only, neutralizing yourself outside of MK's ftilt/dtilt range after successful hit-and-runs...

Theres no secret formula to the matchup...you have to outplay your opponent. Know Metaknight's options, make the hard reads, and don't miss punishes.

Mario is NOT going to rise if the bulk of Mario mains (myself definitely included) can't handle this matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Anti's match looked a lot more like Nairo doing careless things, but I think the first thing that will help most Mario users in this matchup is proper implementation of F-smash.

 

[Inferno3044]

Anti's match looked a lot more like Nairo doing careless things, but I think the first thing that will help most Mario users in this matchup is proper implementation of F-smash.

And how would that be done?

 

[vato_break]

i'll money match any mario against my mk for a high amount, i dare you to win ;]


This matchup is unwinnable though, pick up a better character for this matchup if you want to win.

 

[A2ZOMG]

And how would that be done?

Mario users just need to know how to space F-smash better in this matchup if they want to do better. Know exactly the maximum range of F-smash, and realize that you can bait whiffs through the leanback of the move. It's the most rewarding way of competing with MK's superior spacing options.

 

[Matador]

I mean, i'm pretty confident in my ability to work with fsmash and know the spacing of it well...but I cannot say with any confidence that it'd change the matchup.

The range and damage are nice, but it is far too slow to be one of mario's go-to moves vs Metaknight. I can already see MK just dashing in and powershielding it like everything else, or baiting it out with empty jumps, or outspeeding it with one of his many faster ground moves with comparable range to our fsmash. Not only that, but the timing must be perfect for it to beat nado...so perfect that it's unreasonable to rely on it. The fact is that you must ALREADY be in position to deal with nado as it approaches you...or you eat damage/lose your shield.

I feel that we must handle MK the way Anti did, except we improve upon it. For example, we already know that ftilt is pretty good in this matchup, is pretty safe, and can be reliably jab-cancelled into with little overall risk. Anti didn't use this much. Instead, he opted to use grabs, full jab combo, utilt, and dsmash in general for his ground game. He probably would've benefitted from knowing some of our guaranteed followups for ftilt.

Another thing was his use of nair. Breaking nados, punishing spotdodges, comboing from uair, and overall simply abusing its properties...If anyting, THIS seems to be the staple in this matchup. Prior to Anti, I already had a good idea of how nair was against MK's ground game, but his match clearly shows its effectiveness.

I could go on, but this post is already wall-like...All I know is that I wouldn't have held up so well against Nairo's MK, and I'm a Mario main. That's ****in' shameful.

 

[Inferno3044]

i'll money match any mario against my mk for a high amount, i dare you to win ;]


This matchup is unwinnable though, pick up a better character for this matchup if you want to win.

The only way for Mario to win is if the player is just way better. Maybe Boss's Mario could win if he was still pretty active/practicing. (From what I've been told, he hasn't done much due to rl ****)

Mario users just need to know how to space F-smash better in this matchup if they want to do better. Know exactly the maximum range of F-smash, and realize that you can bait whiffs through the leanback of the move. It's the most rewarding way of competing with MK's superior spacing options.

Against a character with amazing range, it's really hard to make them whiff and punish with it. Not only that, but Fsmash is slow and pretty predictable. I played Matador on wifi and even with the crappy lag I knew basically every time he was going to Fsmash and was able to shield (not punish though due to the lol lag).

I mean, i'm pretty confident in my ability to work with fsmash and know the spacing of it well...but I cannot say with any confidence that it'd change the matchup.

The range and damage are nice, but it is far too slow to be one of mario's go-to moves vs Metaknight. I can already see MK just dashing in and powershielding it like everything else, or baiting it out with empty jumps, or outspeeding it with one of his many faster ground moves with comparable range to our fsmash. Not only that, but the timing must be perfect for it to beat nado...so perfect that it's unreasonable to rely on it. The fact is that you must ALREADY be in position to deal with nado as it approaches you...or you eat damage/lose your shield.

I feel that we must handle MK the way Anti did, except we improve upon it. For example, we already know that ftilt is pretty good in this matchup, is pretty safe, and can be reliably jab-cancelled into with little overall risk. Anti didn't use this much. Instead, he opted to use grabs, full jab combo, utilt, and dsmash in general for his ground game. He probably would've benefitted from knowing some of our guaranteed followups for ftilt.

Another thing was his use of nair. Breaking nados, punishing spotdodges, comboing from uair, and overall simply abusing its properties...If anyting, THIS seems to be the staple in this matchup. Prior to Anti, I already had a good idea of how nair was against MK's ground game, but his match clearly shows its effectiveness.

I could go on, but this post is already wall-like...All I know is that I wouldn't have held up so well against Nairo's MK, and I'm a Mario main. That's ****in' shameful.

If it makes you feel better Matador, I lost to Nairo's MK that same day. Got JV 3 stocked because I stage spiked him before I died on BF then got 2 stocked on Yoshi's. Nairo is a very unique MK and does risky things, but if they land he just destroys. I wouldn't use him to describe your average MK

 

[A2ZOMG]

Anti's Mario vs Nairo was barely even a real match. It was just dudes ****ing around.

It's as if Nairo at times just forgot he could just U-air y'know.

Also, I really don't think it's as hard to implement F-smash against Metaknight as you think it is. Especially if he's playing under the assumption that he will win direct clashes with your shorter ranged moves. Aside from specials, he doesn't move too quick in the air.

I think the way Pierce sums up this matchup is you have to make the Metaknight afraid of you. The psychological edge you can get from well-spaced F-smashes is one way you can make MK think twice about his spacing.

The other thing in this matchup is, you have to have an answer to Metaknight's grab game. Between spacing and grabbing, they're the two strategies he wants to abuse in this matchup.

 

[ANTi_]

Anti's Mario vs Nairo was barely even a real match. It was just dudes ****ing around.

It's as if Nairo at times just forgot he could just U-air y'know.

Also, I really don't think it's as hard to implement F-smash against Metaknight as you think it is. Especially if he's playing under the assumption that he will win direct clashes with your shorter ranged moves. Aside from specials, he doesn't move too quick in the air.

I think the way Pierce sums up this matchup is you have to make the Metaknight afraid of you. The psychological edge you can get from well-spaced F-smashes is one way you can make MK think twice about his spacing.

The other thing in this matchup is, you have to have an answer to Metaknight's grab game. Between spacing and grabbing, they're the two strategies he wants to abuse in this matchup.

Stop taking away my credit ******.

Nairo doesn't sandbag in tournament.

I hate people who do that. get a life.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You lost that match anyway, so what's the big deal? I'm discrediting Nairo for just making some really silly choices. As an example of how Mario vs MK works, that match was still a joke.

 

[Matador]

I dunno, I'll have to give it a shot A2Z. I can't quite picture it working in my head, but that applies to alot of things in this game.

 

[Inferno3044]

Stop taking away my credit ******.

Nairo doesn't sandbag in tournament.

I hate people who do that. get a life.

Anti be on that name searching status. Also he's right about Nairo not sandbagging.

You lost that match anyway, so what's the big deal? I'm discrediting Nairo for just making some really silly choices. As an example of how Mario vs MK works, that match was still a joke.

U mad?

 

[ANTi_]

You lost that match anyway, so what's the big deal? I'm discrediting Nairo for just making some really silly choices. As an example of how Mario vs MK works, that match was still a joke.

LOL i remember you now. your the kid who came to NY and got 25th.

****ing scrub hop off my **** and work on your own skill.

 

[Famous]

Damz....Anti doggin ma n1gs..

 

[Inferno3044]

Hey remember when A2 claimed he was better than UTD ZAC?

 

[Calebyte]

RAINBOW!

Situation diffused. Keep the topic to MK, plox. Anti, I thought you did well imo.

 

[Coolwhip]

It's a good thing that the new Power Shield Canceling (PSC) tech is out now, eps against mk's nado & other stuff like that.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol at these people on the EC who think they know what they're talking about. Taking what I say out of context and setting up poor brackets when tournaments actually happen.

And UTD Zac is legit. He just doesn't explain things as well as I do.

On topic: What options does Mario have against Metaknight's sliding shield approach?

 

[Famous]

Vato, I'll MM your MK Vs Mario...25$ yo...

 

[Matador]

I will too...

For like....5$...

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

It's a good thing that the new Power Shield Canceling (PSC) tech is out now, eps against mk's nado & other stuff like that.

That technique has existed forever, it's just that nobody ever did it. (Purposefully). You can't exactly call a technique like that, "new"... because it's not "new" at all. Just discovered.

And against MK's sliding shield you have a few options, all of which are punishable. I like to dair, I guess you could retreat and fireball too. Space some stuff, I don't know. You honestly don't have too many options. You could go for a grab if you think it will work, but that's somewhat risky too, because if you miss you're probably eating a Dsmash, or something else. His Up-B OoS beats pretty much anything we can do to his shield, save Up-B, but only a pro can predit an MK Up-B OoS and do an Up-B of their own. (I'VE DONE IT!)

Yeah, even a Metaknight in shield who knows his options is a pretty big threat for Mario, and I'm damn good against characters once they are in shield. You could try to outspace whatever they are trying with an Fsmash trick, which is very rewarding if you can land it and happen to kill at a rather low percent. I'd suggest a short charge on the smash if you can handle that, you want the kill as soon as possible against Metaknight. You could also try one of your faster options if you predict he is going to do something immediately, Dsmash or Ftilt or Uair/Nair OoS sound like pretty decent options to me, as long as you know what you are doing with them. A retreating Bair could work well too if you are in the position to do that. But honestly, against Metaknight you're likely to be punished regardless of what you do. I'd say keep your distance and use your pokes and fireballs in order to win the matchup, but maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

Also, I find tornado stupid to deal with. But that's just me.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You might as well Jab or shield against MK's Up-B OOS if you think Up-Bing is a good strategy against it. If you shield his Up-B and predicted it, you can aerial out of shield against it easily. Or Up-B safely for that matter.

I think generally speaking, if the MK's spacing is not spot on, you just want to F-tilt a lot in this matchup. It's kinda safe against most of his ground game, and it's a consistent punish option in most situations.

And yeah, Tornado is lame. You basically have to be deliberately prepared for it or somewhat lucky to make sure it doesn't **** you for spacing B-airs/fireballs.

Kills depend on what the MK does. If you end up using either U-smash or D-smash before KO percents, save the other Smash for kills. Try to save B-throw for emergencies provided he survives to 155 or above. U-tilt also tends to kill him at around the same range as B-throw.

 

[Inferno3044]

Lol at A2 for thinking that just knowing things that can possibly work makes you good and thinking that Nairo vs. Anti @ losers finals is due to a bad bracket.

You might as well Jab or shield against MK's Up-B OOS if you think Up-Bing is a good strategy against it. If you shield his Up-B and predicted it, you can aerial out of shield against it easily. Or Up-B safely for that matter.

I think generally speaking, if the MK's spacing is not spot on, you just want to F-tilt a lot in this matchup. It's kinda safe against most of his ground game, and it's a consistent punish option in most situations.

And yeah, Tornado is lame. You basically have to be deliberately prepared for it or somewhat lucky to make sure it doesn't **** you for spacing B-airs/fireballs.

Kills depend on what the MK does. If you end up using either U-smash or D-smash before KO percents, save the other Smash for kills. Try to save B-throw for emergencies provided he survives to 155 or above. U-tilt also tends to kill him at around the same range as B-throw.

Shuttle Loop is gay. It's basically safe no matter what.

You can't base things assuming your opponent is bad.

Nado is gay. Nothing new.

Killing is pretty hard for Mario in general. You either have to do something fairly risky or punish a mistake assuming the opponent knows what to do against Mario. Since MK doesn't need to take much risk, it's hard to put him in a spot where he will die.

Btw A2, Mario gets destroyed by MK. No Fsmash shenanigans will help you or should even work. They can basically spam Shuttle Loop and we can't do ****. As someone who is in MK central you can take my word. Start playing good people.

 

[Matador]

Shuttleloop is actually not safe alot of the time. You prolly know, but incase u don't, a shielded shuttleloop is a free aerial, especially powershielded. It's one of those things I'm trying to start punishing on reflex now.

Also, Boss told me awhile back that if you DI into nado as soon as it starts, you pop right out. Dunno if this was widely known, but it was news to me.

And yeah, ftilt is amazing vs MK.

 

[Inferno3044]

Shuttleloop is actually not safe alot of the time. You prolly know, but incase u don't, a shielded shuttleloop is a free aerial, especially powershielded. It's one of those things I'm trying to start punishing on reflex now.

Also, Boss told me awhile back that if you DI into nado as soon as it starts, you pop right out. Dunno if this was widely known, but it was news to me.

And yeah, ftilt is amazing vs MK.

Let me be more specific. If you're airborne, it's basically safe on whiff. If you shield it, it's obviously not safe.

I did not know that about nado though. I do know that you can't smash DI it so don't try to do it. Still basically in the unwinnable.

 

[Matador]

My bad for assuming...a testament to how little I know about this matchup...

I just know things here and there that work against him. If I could just seriously an MK main for an hour or so, I'd get it down.