MATCH UPS....throw anything you got.....

[HeroMystic]

55:45 sounds good.

So who's the next character?

 

[BoTastic!]

Unfortunely, boss won't update it until next week.

 

[Genos]

Yes, 55:45 sounds about right. Most of my matches are versus Kirby (My brother's main). We're not that great so this isn't a very good reflection for tournament play, but it seems our matches are for the most part neutral. It really can go either way.

Next week's character should be ROB!

 

[Kidlat]

So many disadvntages...............

Is this what makes Mario low-tier?

 

[Matador]

So many disadvntages...............

Is this what makes Mario low-tier?

These are paper disadvantages. I don't lose to Marth 65:35 or G&W 80:20. People just like to overrate their characters and we like to be objective...somtimes I just let them have their adv. It makes me look better when I ****.

Edit @ Genos: I thought we did that already? We agreed it was 70:30 Mario's favor.

 

[Blackbelt]

Honestly, I was wondering if we could discuss Sheik next.

 

[Judge Judy]

These are paper disadvantages. I don't lose to Marth 65:35 or G&W 80:20.

Do you really think G&W should be 8:2, that's like MK hard. G&W is hard no doubt, but the match-up is more like 7:3.

 

[Blackbelt]

Do you really think G&W should be 8:2, that's like MK hard. G&W is hard no doubt, but the match-up is more like 7:3.

I think the FIHL might make it less than that....

 

[BoTastic!]

G&W is harder to me -_-

 

[Genos]

These are paper disadvantages. I don't lose to Marth 65:35 or G&W 80:20. People just like to overrate their characters and we like to be objective...somtimes I just let them have their adv. It makes me look better when I ****.

Edit @ Genos: I thought we did that already? We agreed it was 70:30 Mario's favor.

Oh. Well it's not in the first post. Thanks!

 

[vato_break]

This week...pit.

 

[Famous]

Actually G&W is easier than Marth, both players being at equal skill.

...I hate rolling Lucario's

 

[Ray/Boshi]

These are paper disadvantages. I don't lose to Marth 65:35 or G&W 80:20. People just like to overrate their characters and we like to be objective...somtimes I just let them have their adv. It makes me look better when I ****.

I agree. That and I aint too into debating back an forth constantly, trying to make a non believer a believer that Mario or Jigglypuff could possibly destroy their character. Even if they are writing it down as a 70/30 or 80/20. Whatever floats they boat.

But that goes with every character board really. Their matchup #'s are way off.
Hopefully they re-asess each character or something when they finally get finished.


Lucario's roll is ridiculous. Rolls like the whole FD in a few rolls.

 

[Matador]

Do you really think G&W should be 8:2, that's like MK hard. G&W is hard no doubt, but the match-up is more like 7:3.

I think the FIHL might make it less than that....

G&W is harder to me -_-

I never thought G&W was that hard in the first place, even without FIHL. I thought 20:80 G&W's favor was what we agreed on a long time ago? I also remember arguing MK being harder than G&W....and many arguing the opposite. I've thought MK > G&W difficulty forever.

 

[Blackbelt]

I never thought G&W was that hard in the first place, even without FIHL. I thought 20:80 G&W's favor was what we agreed on a long time ago? I also remember arguing MK being harder than G&W....and many arguing the opposite. I've thought MK > G&W difficulty forever.

No arguments there.

 

[HeroMystic]

I recently played a great G&W player and I see how this could be meant to be an 8:2, but I personally don't think he's that hard.

One things for sure, MK and G&W aren't at the same caliber. One is harder and the other is easier.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

The only things G&W has in this match-up is Disjointed Hitboxes and Low% kills but all of his smashes can be jabbed and I've found a system to DI out of the turtle

anyway..........new discussion whenever

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W's D-tilt is super gay for Mario to work around.

Also his juggling on Mario and pretty much anyone is insane.

He's also very good at edgeguarding Mario with D-air and F-air edgeguards. D-air will get a hit on Mario if he goes for the ledge and might stagespike him. F-air's high knockback is very effective near the blastzone.

Vato suggested Pit. Pit is annoying because he's very good at punishing out of shield due to being fast and he outranges Mario a fair bit with his blades.

His arrows are annoying because of the range, but they can be dealt with in many ways, either by cape, or attacking.

The main advantage you have is better combos on him, although I think his N-air can be annoying when you're trying to combo him.

I'd say he's one of Mario's harder matchups. 65/35.

 

[Matador]

Vato suggested Pit. Pit is annoying because he's very good at punishing out of shield due to being fast and he outranges Mario a fair bit with his blades.

His arrows are annoying because of the range, but they can be dealt with in many ways, either by cape, or attacking.

The main advantage you have is better combos on him, although I think his N-air can be annoying when you're trying to combo him.

I'd say he's one of Mario's harder matchups. 65/35.

Sagemoon disagrees.

Okay i'm a pit main and a pretty decent one at that. My friend is a mario main, he's pretty decent too.

Since I play him pretty often, here's what I have to say about the matchup. It's even from my experience, mario has a slight advantage at most. Pit's reflectors are terrible against the fireballs. Side b will lead to mario forward smashing pit in the face. Even if pit catches mario in the side b, mario will most likely di out of the move before pit finishes. Down b for some reason will only be a reliable reflecter towards fireballs when pit is on the ground (pit cant short hop and down b, thus limiting a lot of approaches). Plus mario doesn't have to worry about pits mirror shield when attacking.

Pit can use his up b to negate and approach mario while he is fireballing w/ wingdashing. (look up wingdashing if you dont know what that is). Although pits arrow game is nerfed from the cape, it's still effective enough against mario if the pit player is smart. Pit can gimp marios up b w/ the mirror shield too. mario can gimp pits up b (if pit has to use it, which is rare)

Overall, pit can stack damage faster than mario, but mario has more knockback and range. This makes the matchup pretty even in my opinion.

The Mario friend he's talking about is Fear.

 

[boss8]

so a conclusion and then we will move on.............

 

[BoTastic!]

Conclusion

55:45 Kirby

 

[Matt07]

Here's the pros and cons, thanks for helping us with the discussion this week Kirby mains.
If I missed anything, let me know.

Pros:
+Kirby is affected by FIHL.
+Kirby is fairly easy to juggle.
+Kirby has bad approach options.
+Fireballs can prove annoying.

Cons:
-Mario is easy to combo.
-Mario is not hard to K.O.
-His recovery is predictable.
-Better priority.
-Disjointed hitboxes.

 

[boss8]

so what character is next??? majority vote???

 

[HeroMystic]

I think a discussion slightly started up about Pit. Perhaps we should finish him off.

 

[gantrain05]

well as a mario main, i don't know why i haven't checked here for info, but oh well, but about that earlier discussion, i definately think G&W is harder than MK, maybe its just the people i play, but i always do better against MK.

 

[Matador]

I'm voting Ike.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

I vote for Mewtwo

 

[boss8]

ok mew two it is...........

na we will go with Pit.

 

[Matador]

I don't fight many Pits, but Sagemoon covered it pretty well for me. As the best Pit who regularly fights one of the best Marios, I think his points hold alot of weight.

I just know that his Nair is so annoying...

 

[BoTastic!]

I know SageMoon is real good in all. But its most certainly isn't even. If he thinks its even because of Fear, thats just because Fear is very good.

-Pit range isn't impressive at all... But he has more range than Mario. (Unless Mario throws out a shutter steped Fsmash)
-Disjointed Hitboxes
-Arrows
-Priority
-Speed
-Aerial Mobility

I don't even know what Mario really has over Pit. Besides killing him quickly. Although I am not THAT experienced with playing pit, i normally have diffculty facing him when i do. My opinion can be changed.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I don't have much difficulty at all facing Pits. From what I've seen, they have a lot of trouble with the cape with pretty much every move he has. He does have higher priority, but Mario can combo him pretty easily.

 

[BoTastic!]

I can probably see it at 40:60 Pit. He also isn't that hard to gimp either.

 

[hippiedude92]

ehhh.. i cannot tell you.. how those arrows...are a.. pain in the ***.... Oh dont fall for that bsing wingdash or w/e it is.

Agreed with bo x7 tho. he relatively doesnt have better ledgeguard tools compared to mario. all it takes a couple of hits to force him outta his jumps then his upb then a perfect kill is right there...

iirc, his nair has alot of priority, mobility, and can autocancel (not sure) but it can lead to alot. hes really easy to combo though and kill. But pits fsmash is relaitviely strong if its fresh..

im leading abit maybe with box7s results or maybe 45:55

 

[HeroMystic]

Pit isn't hard at all. Definitely one of Mario's easier matches. Pit's ground game beats Mario's, but Mario's air game is better than Pit's, although he can shield himself with N-air. Arrows unless aimed to hit from behind (haven't seen this done to me yet, but I've seen videos) can be caped, which makes Pit's safest move not very safe anymore.

The hardest thing about Pit is keeping the pressure. He can automatically react with Side-B and N-air and close the gap between damage pretty easily, and he can shield himself pretty well on the ground, but once you get under him it's smooth sailing.

All of Pit's moves are quite punishable, and even though it's quite hard to gimp him, you shouldn't need to since he's pretty light.

Pit beats Mario's ground game and can rack up damage pretty easily if you're not careful. Fireball approaches gets shut out from Side-B, and all of his Smash attacks come out relatively quick. The Hyphen U-Smash should be noted since it's stays out for quite awhile and puts Mario above him, which is a good vantage point for Pit since U-air is safe to use from below.

That said, his Smash and tilts are punishable by all of Mario's moves, and a Stutter-stepped F-Smash beats just about all of Pit's moves except for Side-B. So even though Pit can rack damage, it's pretty hard to KO Mario, but it's not hard to KO Pit.

Also, I believe Pit can reverse Mario's Up-B with his shield, although it's relatively hard to do with the strict timing, and Mario can cape stall.

I can go with Even. Maybe 55:45 Mario. The fight really depends on who can keep the pace.

 

[Coffee™]

he relatively doesnt have better ledgeguard tools compared to mario.

Care to explain why? 3 midair jumps, Spammable Arrows and a shield that can reverse recoveries makes him sound a bit more capable in terms of ledgeguarding than Mario.

all it takes a couple of hits to force him outta his jumps then his upb then a perfect kill is right there...

I don't get why people have this misconception that Pit is easy to gimp. Mario of all characters should never be able to force a good Pit to use up all 3 midair jumps and UP B while remaining in a position that he can still take out Pit.

iirc, his nair has alot of priority, mobility, and can autocancel (not sure) but it can lead to alot. hes really easy to combo though and kill. But pits fsmash is relaitviely strong if its fresh..

None of Pits Aerials can Autocancel, and I'd highly disagree that he's as easy to combo or kill as you are making it sound.

All of Pit's moves are quite punishable, and even though it's quite hard to gimp him, you shouldn't need to since he's pretty light.

Your exaggerating a bit here, all of Pits moves aren't punishable, certain moves like F-Tilt and Fair and Angel Ring are a bit laggy, but I would definitely say you would be going a too far to state that all of Pit's moves are punishable. And Pit is only slightly lighter than Mario, so it's not as easy as it may seem to simply KO him, especially with good DI.

That said, his Smash and tilts are punishable by all of Mario's moves, and a Stutter-stepped F-Smash beats just about all of Pit's moves except for Side-B. So even though Pit can rack damage, it's pretty hard to KO Mario, but it's not hard to KO Pit.

Pit's Smashes are pretty fast, you can punish them if Pit is predictable with them but with any competent Pit a Mario shouldn't be able to capitalize too much on his smash attacks. The same can be said for the most part about his tilts albeit his F-Tilit. As far as KOing goes. Pit has 5 moves he can kill with. F-Tilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair and Glide Attack, this is in addition to his ability to gimp characters like Mario pretty easily offstage. I wouldn't say it's really hard to KO Mario.

Also, I believe Pit can reverse Mario's Up-B with his shield, although it's relatively hard to do with the strict timing, and Mario can cape stall.

Honestly, the timing isn't that strict and Mario's Up B is fairly predictable.

I can go with Even. Maybe 55:45 Mario. The fight really depends on who can keep the pace.

In my opinion I'd say the fight is in Pit's favor, probably 55:45. Mario has a better aerial game, and the ability to reflect Pit's arrows but that's really about it.

 

[Da Man]

I'm going with 50:50 here. Why no one is going with it is a question.

 

[Matador]

None of Pits Aerials can Autocancel, and I'd highly disagree that he's as easy to combo or kill as you are making it sound.

Lol, ALL of Pit's aerials autocancel from SH. No lag or anything.

My thoughts on the matchup:

This is a pretty close one because we both have similar playstyles. I don't think either party has a real advantage on ground or in the air. Both have great combo starters from grabs, jabs, and aerials, both have reflectors and projectiles, both are very capable of gimping each other.

Subtle differences like Pit's projectile purpose, reflector usage, and gimping strategies are what separate us. Pit's projectile can be used for camping and following up aerials for racking up damage (and I'm sure more purposes), but the ending lag doesn't make it as good for approaching. Mario's is solely for approach and spacing.

Pit's reflectors require you to hit them, but stay out much longer so timing isn't an issue. Mario's is the opposite.

Mario is CAPABLE of gimping Pit, but it isn't going to happen if the Pit is wary of this. Cape outranges all of Pit's aerials (check me on this), and can easily force Pit in the other direction, wasting jumps. Fireballs and Fludd also force him back, and help gimp. If Pit is in range, we've got him. The only way he can stop us is by flying too high or too low for our gimps to matter...or do a bit of fancy gliding. Unfortunately for us, this isn't a difficult task for Pit.

Pit, on the other hand, can gimp us regardless of our position. His arrows force us to cape or move in directions we shouldn't, his reflector can easily force our upB in the other direction like our cape, and he can chase hit us with an aerial of his own offstage. We have fireballs, cape, Fludd, and our spiking upB (incase you mis-time that reflector) to protect us leaving the gimp only to us screwing up most of the time.

The only true differences in this matchup are KO power and range. I've lived to insane % fighting Pits and only consistently dying to glide attack. Mario's Fsmash kills Pit around 100% and Usmash around 120%(?) and are relatively easy to land on Pit because of the range. Since gimping is usually in the equation for Pit and Mario alike, being able to consistently KO is a big deal.

Range is also a big deal, however, and is where Pit pretty much has the edge. He can get hit momentum in the match going easier by getting one of his many combo starters going first and keeping it going. Both have annoying defensive games with Pit and his arrows and Mario with his broken upB. Both having reflectors...I can see the clock running.

I, personally, believe that it's 55:45 Mario, but it could EASILY be the other way. Especially if Pit has one of those many ATs to shift the scale. It's definitely not 60:40 either way. The characters are too much alike.

Edit: I...I can't stop typing this much. Sorry fellas.

 

[Coffee™]

For the most part, your post is correct, however you have a couple things I'd like to address. Again I will repeat. NONE of Pits Aerials are autocancelable, if you don't believe me then go test them yourself. There is some lag for each and every one of them if used too close to the ground. All of them can be done just fine from a short hop with no lag but they are still not autocancelable.

I never knew Mario could spike with his up B, but it shouldn't really matter as Pit is going to be using it from the stage. He has no reason to chase Mario offstage to then use Up B when he could simply gimp Mario with Arrows and Fairs.

And about living to insanely high percentages against opposing Pits, I don't find that especially hard to believe since a lot of Pit's tend to spam Fsmash and Dsmash as spacing moves and never give them time to recharge before trying to use them to kill. IIRC, Fsmash has roughly the same killing power as his Glide Attack, and if your dying from Glide Attack just fine I would say that my first statement about refreshing moves is probably true. Pit shouldn't have that much problems killing.

 

[BoTastic!]

Mario of all characters should never be able to force a good Pit to use up all 3 midair jumps and UP B while remaining in a position that he can still take out Pit.

I agree with you with Pit having the adv, but make sure you know what your talking about. Mario can easily force Pit's recovery with fireballs and fludd.

 

[HeroMystic]

Your exaggerating a bit here, all of Pits moves aren't punishable, certain moves like F-Tilt and Fair and Angel Ring are a bit laggy, but I would definitely say you would be going a too far to state that all of Pit's moves are punishable. And Pit is only slightly lighter than Mario, so it's not as easy as it may seem to simply KO him, especially with good DI.

I should clarify. Pit's ground moves are capable of being punished. All of his ground moves in some way or fashion can be punished.

And Pit is pretty easy to KO, especially compared to all the other characters Mario has to go against. Matador explained it already.

Pit's Smashes are pretty fast, you can punish them if Pit is predictable with them but with any competent Pit a Mario shouldn't be able to capitalize too much on his smash attacks. The same can be said for the most part about his tilts albeit his F-Tilit. As far as KOing goes. Pit has 5 moves he can kill with. F-Tilt, Fsmash, Dsmash, Bair and Glide Attack, this is in addition to his ability to gimp characters like Mario pretty easily offstage. I wouldn't say it's really hard to KO Mario.

I'll give you the fact that Pit mains shouldn't be predictable with their moves, but the advantage is still there. All of his ground moves got some ending lag that makes them punishable.

As for Glide Attack, Mario can do three things. IF space correctly, he can cape Pit in the other direction. Secondly, he can B-air Pit if, again, spaced correctly. Lastly, he can FLUDD the glide attack and captialize from the use of FIHL.

Honestly, the timing isn't that strict and Mario's Up B is fairly predictable.

I'll agree, but don't make it sound like it's so easy.

In my opinion I'd say the fight is in Pit's favor, probably 55:45. Mario has a better aerial game, and the ability to reflect Pit's arrows but that's really about it.

I'd say that better aerial game is a good advantage if you want to push it to Mario's favor. And keep in mind what I said about Pit's ground moves.

A 55:45 isn't really an advantage anyways. I'd rather just stick to even for the sake of avoiding a neverending dispute.