Match-Up Week #16 : Donkey Kong

[Blad01]

Week #16 : Donkey Kong​

Donkey Kong is a beast :D Lol seriously, good tilts, good mobility, powerful and heavie. The chaingrab doesn't even seem to work at his best.
Discuss !

 

[Fluke]

With no projectile and large body, he is easily abused by SH(D)L.

Chaingrab does ****, spike is deadly to his average vertical recovery.


Watch out for the bair. It hurts.
Dair is a spike = flattened bird.

Fully charged punch as invincibility super armour frames, so care. However nine punch (nine arm swings of charge, not fully charged) has more knockback but no invincibility frames. So don't feel comfortable if their isn't smoke coming out of donkey kong.

His Up B is spikeable, but you have to watch for those invinciblity frames there as well.

His Side B and Fair are also spikes, so be warned. Side B to Donkey Punch is ****.


Use lasers to disrupt him charging punches whenever you can.




(Hey Blade, you learning diddy too?! :D)

 

[CY]

basically the way i play this match up is camp lasers hard and make him approach, and abuse the CG it ***** DK hard. if you grab him it's a pretty much guaranteed CG > Spike off the ledge. up close though DK can **** falco with his range and his amazing tilts. his bair is dangerous and goes through our side-b so watch out for that.

pretty much in this match up space yourself with lasers and play it cautious. DK can kill you early, but we have a hard time to kill him, so just play it cool, and pick the right moments to punish his laggy attacks.

this is just a brief summary, i'm at school right now so i can't really get into it.

 

[8AngeL8]

First off, I want to stress that Donkey Kong CAN SURVIVE THE CG TO SPIKE. I play a DK main every single day and I haven't killed him with it in over a month. Smash DI up, and IMMEDIATELY Up-B and DK survives.

The danger moves that DK has are 1. Dtilt 2. Bair and 3. 9 punch.

Dtilt has ridiculous range, it's completely broken. Not only that , it almost always trips and sets you up into something else. If you're going to beat DK, you need to know exactly what the range on this is, and never let DK space you that distance. Either be closer where your speed can win out, or farther where your lasers will.

Bair WoP's really well. It's got a huge hitbox and good priority, too. Always be on the lookout for this, especially off stage. If you're both onstage, throw a nair out to put a stop to this. If he's edgeguarding, be careful, because it outprioritizes phantasm.

The 9 punch kills. I've died at, like, 50 to it before. You need to KNOW if the DK you're facing has one these charged up. When he does, watch him closely. DK's like to use this in the air because it takes off some of the lag. If he SH's or is falling from above, be ready to shield. The best strategy against this move is to just not be in range, because if you eat it, you'll be in a world of hurt.

Falco's strategy in this matchup should revolve around his lasers. Play a game of keep away with DK as long as your can. It's pretty easy to get the chaingrab off since he's so big, but it's not lethal, as I said before. Falco CAN fight DK up close, but he's going to have to win by outmaneuvering DK. Bair, A combo, and Nair all work very well. Make sure you always end up behind him so as to not get shield grabbed, though.

The best way to kill is Silent Laser -> Boost Smash. Bair is a possibility but it will be diminished because it's one of your best answers to DK's approaches.

Final verdict: 50/50

 

[GMo]

I second DK and play him in doubles so I'll share my input.

DK is going to kill you early. There isn't much you can do about it. At low percents if you get dthrowed be sure to jump, he'll probably follow-up with the ground pound which has absurd range. His best approach is the bair so expect to see a lot of those and note that he can do two in one short hop. His ftilt's range is absurd, and it might clank with your lasers (it does with Lucario's aura sphere until Lucario is like 135+). Beware of the 8-9 charge punch, it doesn't have super armor but the knockback is increased and is ridiculous. The 10 charge punch has super armor and is demoralizing. His sideb slams you into the ground, but is pretty avoid able. But his sideb coupled with downb can do a number on your shield - fast. His dtilt is amazing, can trip, long range. Grounded up-bs are really important to DK; it eats up shields and finishes with a minute amount of lag. If DK spaces really well this can be a pretty tough matchup. Falco's kill options are already limited so weight makes it that much harder to deal with.

With that said, lasers really hurt DK's approach options. He's going to have to get through them somehow, try to brickwall him as best you can. Obviously the CG is tough for DK to deal with, but I don't think you can zero-death him with it under most circumstances. Gimping his recovery is hard than it looks because he has invincibility frames, BUT you can spike him pretty efficiently.

He has terrible vertical recovery, but great horizontal. So, if possible, keep him low.

 

[Denzi]

Some random stuff:

Lasers = godly

CG = not a gaurenteed kill

Footstoll offstage = suprisingly effective.

These things in addition to what everyone else said.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

you're honestly going to gimp more with the footstool than with the spike.

the spike is much harder to set up in this match due to his upb having a constant high priority hitbox. to gimp his upb, you have to come in from straight above (which is hard if he controls the upb well) , and even then, you have to hit with the last couple frames (not sure on the data) that still spike, since if you do it first frame like what works on most characters, it'll just get eaten by the upb. also, if you screw up, you'll take 10-30% for your failed attempt, probably comboed into a dsmash if he knows how to land his recovery.

dk's lasers can be a pain, but running upb works fairly well against falcos camp game if the dk times the SA to go through the second laser.

even at least. i used to think this was a dk disadvantage, but the more i learn the matchup, the better dk does

 

[Denzi]

dk's lasers can be a pain, but running upb works fairly well against falcos camp game if the dk times the SA to go through the second laser.

You meant Falco's, right?

 

[gunterrsmash01]

Don't get close, his tilts will **** you. play a camping game and use aerials to approach.

 

[Mikey7]

I also play lots of DK's. I find it hard to put a definitive number on this matchup.

Early on, going for a CG is death but still doable...but even if you get it congrats hes not dying til 170% anyway (up smash)

So the main thing to do its just exploit lasers into dair, or lasers into illusion.

Ok so clarification on falco's spacing:
You want to stay out of ftilt range, or completley inside of DK so you can pressure him. If you're at ftilt range...just say goodnight. Even then, DK has got a good grab range to bring the pace back to his speed.

Watch out for his down b...any DK who doesn't use it isn't using DK to his full potential. Its a completley disjointed move that is amazing as a follow up, or roll punisher, or just something to catch you off guard.

So DK's main game is just keeping you away, so he'll try to close the gap between you two to his desired space, and he will eat lasers which really doesn't matter much because hes so huge (just stay away from BF or platforms so you can at least use lasers).

SO with all these tools DK has to keep you away...theres one solution: CAMP, bring him to you and try throw off his spacing (good luck) and get inside DK then pressure him with dairs, jabs, etc.

Uh I still don't know where to put this one, but I can't help but feel Falco has somewhat of an advantage...based on mobility and his ability to exploit DK's major weakness with lasers.

So I'm going to say 55:45 Falco...

 

[Donkey Bong]

With no projectile and large body, he is easily abused by SH(D)L.

DK has projectiles. they're called his arms

 

[itsthebigfoot]

and his magically fsmash/usmash soundwave hitbox that goes past his hands

mikey got most of it, but he didn't iterate how good downb is in this matchup. if the dk abuses downb properly, you won't get a grab. the only set up for grabs that becomes viable is nair - grab, so he just has to watch for one thing. for some reason, all the falco's i've played REALLY want to cg me, and aren't subtle about it, down b greatly limits your ability to get grabs

and again, at first glance, falco does have the edge, but some of the dumb stuff dk can do (hit a dk's shield when they can gfsc headbutt, i dare you) makes it pretty even. you gotta camp the **** out of him though.

also

You meant Falco's, right?

you've never seen dk's lasers? they absolutely destroy mewtwo, it makes it a 90-10 matchup, those things are too good

EDIT: don't let dk get ahead in the match though, he can plank you too. upb invincibility frames ftw

 

[J4pu]

TL;DR

apparently DK's like JJapes as well, so expect them to know the stage and be able to effectively recover from the water.

 

[superglucose]

Not 50-50.

DK is heavy and harder to kill for Falco than normal, but his massive bulk means he's really easy to hit. His range is a problem... so, uh, don't approach. He's slow, though his attacks aren't particularly laggy ('d say around average).

60:40

CG->Dair is not a guaranteed kill. This is understood by me. I've even seen utter newbies pull off a survival here. All the same... you can out space him hard with your lasers and when you're inside his guard, your attacks (specifically, utilt, ftilt, jab, dsmash) come out much faster than his attacks.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

if you get in close, our dtilt/utilt is just as quick as your ftilt and dsmash, utilt comes out as quick as our jab, and jab is actually faster than what dk can do.

but, if you're in the close i can guarantee that the dk already has an attack coming out, prolly downb, since the only reason you'd be close is if you decided to approach for some reason. if the dk is approaching, you're going to be somewhere around ftilt/dtilt range.

falco has the edge online, or on hdtvs, i know this because i played j4pu at jmex's tourney, lost, and couldn't figure out why i didn't win, then champ told me they just banned that tv due to 2 second input lag. get ***** me.

however, from my experience with dehf (best falco west coast now) it's even

 

[J4pu]

wtf there was not 2 second input lag, that's worse than online play

I just outplayed you clearly, no johns

just take the loss as a loss, it happens people don't always beat people that are worse than them.

And I'll give you a MM at Race's if you want it.

 

[Denzi]

You've never seen DK's lasers? they absolutely destroy Mewtwo, it makes it a 90-10 matchup, those things are too good.

I'm sigging this, If you don't mind of course

 

[Vlade]

Difficulty: 6:4 (Falco's advantage)

What to expect:

• Spacing. If a DK knows how to space himself well, especially with his tilts and bair, you're gonna have a hard time getting inside.
• DK can survive the CG > spike. So you may want to follow up with gattling combo, dair him into the ground to tech chase or follow an off-stage spike with a bair (which often kills).
• Falco is going to be dying quickly against DK. DK's smashes are incredibly powerful, and have very good range. Also watch out for DK edgeguarding with bair and dair.
• DK is easy to rack damage up against with lasers and phantasms, but getting the kill is the tricky part.
• DK has the potential to serverely punish your phantasm when you're recovering.
• Cargo Stage Spike (CSS) - this is deadly, just make sure you get out of DK's hands asap!

The Strategy:

Falco easily outcamps DK with lasers. So it is up to DK to space himself appropriately when he approaches. A lot of DK's I verse like using the bair to prod you, then DI'ing away to remain safe (if you put your shield up). It's very difficult to get inside of DK to get the grab, so use lasers to create those opportunities. Don't become predictable with your laser follow-ups though. Anyway, falco can chaingrab DK and inflict over 50%+ from the grab, so that's a huge advantage if you can get it in early.

At the very start of the match (actually, throught any part of the match) if DK is far away from you and is charging his giant punch, it might be worth shooting a grounded laser. Also beware of his side b headbutt, because if it hits you are screwed. It also takes off a large chunk of your shield, so try and spotdodge and punish it with dsmash if possible.

Edgeguarding against DK can be a pain because of his upb, it has invincibility frames. Dair is probably your best bet, since if you try using bair you might get hit by DK's recovery. On the the other hand, DK will be inflicting most damage against falco off-stage.

Killing DK is hard. He is heavy, so usmash doesn't kill until about 140%. Fsmash is hard to land as usual. But those are probably your best bets since bair is often stale when I verse DK, and dair is only useful for killing off-stage.

The key to versing DK is learning the range of his moves, and adapting to them with lasers.

STAGES

Counterpicks:

• Final Destination - Usual keep-away game works great against DK here, and chaingrab > spike > bair can often result in a stage spike against the lip.

Ban These Stages!

• Jungle Japes? - I'm not sure whether or not this is good or bad. But I put it here because DK has the cargo stage spike right into the left platform, sending you into the water. But otherwise it's a great stage as always. I'm just not sure if DK's one major strength outweighs falco's many strengths on this stage.

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falco has the edge online, or on hdtvs, i know this because i played j4pu at jmex's tourney, lost, and couldn't figure out why i didn't win, then champ told me they just banned that tv due to 2 second input lag. get ***** me.

however, from my experience with dehf (best falco west coast now) it's even

No johns.

 

[J4pu]

Remember that non-FF running off-stage Dair I just "discovered" /posted about?
CG > SH Dair spike > land on stage > run-off, non-FF Dair spike.

Looks like I turned it into a 0-death combo, go me,
cuz he ain't recovering from 2 spikes without regaining his 2nd jump

so now that we have 0-death can we agree falco has a huge advantage?

 

[Vlade]

Well thats of course if the DK does not use his invincibility frames of his upb to out-prioritise the 2nd dair.

 

[J4pu]

lol, DK needs the height from his UpB to recover from the first Dair, his DJ doesn't make it back. So he is in no position to be picky about when to time his UpB, and since you can just stand on the stage until you see him start his UpB before you run off Dair, I think it's pretty fullproof.

 

[Vlade]

If your theory is correct then I shall test! Sounds pretty full-proof to me.

 

[J4pu]

I probably shouldn't have mentioned this until after I MM bigfoot... DAMMIT

 

[Shy Guy 86]

Doesn't DK have medicore/average priority on most of his moves?

 

[8AngeL8]

His priority is secondary to the fact that his attacks have more range than almost anything that isn't a projectile.

 

[Luigi player]

Remember that non-FF running off-stage Dair I just "discovered" /posted about?
CG > SH Dair spike > land on stage > run-off, non-FF Dair spike.

Looks like I turned it into a 0-death combo, go me,
cuz he ain't recovering from 2 spikes without regaining his 2nd jump

so now that we have 0-death can we agree falco has a huge advantage?

DK could move back a bit while using upB to avoid the second dair I think.

 

[J4pu]

possibly, I think it depends on how perfectly he meteor cancels the Dair for how well this would work, since if he does a mediocre job at meteor canceling he'll only barely be able to grab the edge with UpB which means more room for your drop off Dair.

 

[JST]

I don't see how Falco can camp DK, when DK's arms are so redonkulous that they might as well projectiles themselves.

I'm with bigfoot. The only real problem that I can see in this match are lasers. Otherwise they seem pretty even, maybe a tiny bit in Falco's favor.

 

[Donkey Bong]

DK could move back a bit while using upB to avoid the second dair I think.

yeah its possible to do that, but its tough timing, i've managed to pull it off a few times even though its definitely risky

the super armor on our upb helps us get through SHDL a lot
the 9 wind punch ends lives... for you guys ~50%

the big thing we have to worry about is that 0-death J4pu was talking about, 8AngeL8 has pulled that off on me more times than i like to tell. after that, its a pretty even fight, actually, one of my favorite matchups to fight against

PS: i know the discussion is over, but these points werent brought up before and i think they're fairly important

 

[Blad01]

PS: i know the discussion is over, but these points werent brought up before and i think they're fairly important

The discussion is never over anyways

 

[smashkng]

I don't think camping DK with lasers is that easy, he has insane mobility for a super heavyweight.

 

[Denzi]

I don't think camping DK with lasers is that easy, he has insane mobility for a super heavyweight.

The discussion kinda ended a long time ago...

And actually it is as long as you play smart and mix in some IAPs with your lasering.

 

[Bloodcross]

Ban Brinstar against DK... DK ***** on Brinstar and Falco gets *****.

DK can hide behind those elastic things as a shield for our lazers, and use ALL of its tilts. It's pretty much all DK could do to win lol. So FALCO will be the one approaching here.

BAN BRINSTAR.

 

[§witch]

How does DK camping behind those arms force falco to approach?

 

[Bloodcross]

How does DK camping behind those arms force falco to approach?

Lazers won't get through the elastics for a while?

My reasons may suck but I know for a fact that banning Brinstar against a DK is a must imo.

 

[Denzi]

He has the right idea in banning the stage vs. DK, as you pretty much have to, but he's using a poor example.

Reasons to ban it include:

Neutral B and smashes kill waaaaaaay earlier
Smaller stage, lasers are less of a problem
Our potential 0%-death is hindered by the acid
DK can safely travel underneath the stage to stall
the bands do block lasers, although it's not as much of a factor as the overall size of the size of the stage is.
Uneven stage throws off already weakened laser game

I'm sure there are some others, but I'm not a DK main, so I'm not sure of them all.

 

[§witch]

I know it's a phenomenal DK stage, I CP it quite frequently with him. I simply feel the need to point out that other characters not being hit by falco's laser, hardly forces falco to approach. This is a common misconception that I need to clear up.

 

[Denzi]

I know it's a phenomenal DK stage, I CP it quite frequently with him. I simply feel the need to point out that other characters not being hit by falco's laser, hardly forces falco to approach. This is a common misconception that I need to clear up.

Oh, i gotcha.

Yeah, Falco's not obliged to do anything.

 

[Pez55]

Depends what stage it is really.

Small stages make laser camping hard thus resulting in DK quickly chasing you down and killing you.

Exact opposite for large stages.