Match Up Export: Metaknight!

[Asdioh]

If you read DMG's planking thread you'd know that MK's planking is literally unbeatable.

And I don't think he even needs to "plank" or "scrooge" to beat Kirby, he just beats Kirby by getting a % lead and playing defensively.

There is

NOTHING

KIRBY

CAN

DO.

This matchup is worse than Ice Climbers, Marth, anything. Personally I think MK should be banned but fjasgfdffgiojf

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

This is why matchup discussions are dumb :/

You're saying (correctly I believe) that it's 70:30, and yet "most MKs don't play that way" so it's 60:40? Think about what you're saying. We're talking about how ideally both players would play.

70:30 sounds good to me

I agree that matchup percentages are dumb for this reason, but matchup discussions are valuable.

Fact of the matter is, while we should definitely discuss the ideal conditions on both sides, what is far more valuable is outlining the general community trends. Non-perfect MK's with insufficient matchup information will spam the crap out of their punishable moves, because all of their spammy moves are traditionally difficult (not even close to impossible) to punish. If we want any hope of beating ANY metaknights, we have to know this information too.

But the percentage should ideally reflect what occurs either in a match or a set, and I believe that Kirby cannot under any circumstances win a set against a well-prepared MK who is willing to play the matchup correctly. Perhaps a single game due to stage differences, good predictions, a few bad spacing punishes, w/e, but then MK gets to counterpick a stage...

I play in a region that likes the ledge grab limit, but generally only enforces them if someone times out a match, and then again only in singles matches. I don't think this is close to sufficient to control how gay MK is, tbh >_>

 

[Kewkky]

Well, Asdioh, I guess my wins against MKs everywhere are lies or something. I mean, not just in PR, but at Pound4 as well. I even did better against Seirbik's MK (1-2) than I did against Pierce's Marth (0-2) in-tourney, and all the friendlies I played against other people's MKs (like Znakeee's, where I lost no matches). But hey, you said so yourself: we can't do anything but lose, even if we gain an advantage and keep it. If the MK is doing it wrong when I win, then the MK is doing it wrong whenever they lose against every other character in the cast, seeing as his MUs are all 55:45+ in his favor, amirite?

>____>

 

[A1lion835]

Well, Asdioh, I guess my wins against MKs everywhere are lies or something. I mean, not just in PR, but at Pound4 as well. I even did better against Seirbik's MK (1-2) than I did against Pierce's Marth (0-2) in-tourney, and all the friendlies I played against other people's MKs (like Znakeee's, where I lost no matches). But hey, you said so yourself: we can't do anything but lose, even if we gain an advantage and keep it. If the MK is doing it wrong when I win, then the MK is doing it wrong whenever they lose against every other character in the cast, seeing as his MUs are all 55:45+ in his favor, amirite?

>____>

If the Meta Knight is less skilled than his opponent, he has a good chance of losing.

If the MK doesn't play the matchup right, he has a good chance of losing.

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) you quoted Seibrik as saying something along the lines of "I could've beaten you if I'd played gayer" when you posted after/during Pound 4. If he could've played gayer, he should have. The fact that MK, if he EVER in the course of the game gets even a 1% lead, can hide behind a defensive wall of planking and air camping for 8 minutes and win the game shows how ridiculously advantaged he is. It only makes it worse when you consider that he can hit us much more easily than we can hit him.

 

[Tiersie]

I pretty sure our Uair beats dair camping.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

I pretty sure our Uair beats dair camping.

^This.

And while I can't find it, there's thi one video of a Meta Knight at Genesis that air camped the entire match while technically not breaking any rules, hence the new revisions to the planking/stalling rules the severely reduce MK's gayness.

But he's still gay and broken. Almost as bad as Kirby in Melee. Seriously, he was so broken, I didn't even use him.

 

[Kewkky]

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) you quoted Seibrik as saying something along the lines of "I could've beaten you if I'd played gayer" when you posted after/during Pound 4. If he could've played gayer, he should have. The fact that MK, if he EVER in the course of the game gets even a 1% lead, can hide behind a defensive wall of planking and air camping for 8 minutes and win the game shows how ridiculously advantaged he is. It only makes it worse when you consider that he can hit us much more easily than we can hit him.

He said that he had to play gay to beat me, and pointed towards platform+dair camping. And our uair might beat his dair, but not dair camping. Remember, his dair starts and ends faster than our uair, so all he has to do is aircamp until we throw out an uair, then he hits us. We might have more range, but not speed... And even though I usually get through dair camping this way, I still feel that it's because I outsmarted them and hit them when they least expected it... If it would've been the other way around, I'm sure I couldn't uair through the dair+uair camping.

Of course MK can hit us easier than we can hit him, which is why the MU is in his favor. He can also kill us easier than we can kill him... But MK is NOT a hard counter. He's got an advantage, and it's obvious, but it's not to the point where the opponent can CP MK and we're probably going to lose because of this (a la Foxika or Wolf:Sheik or DK:DDD). We can go toe-to-toe with MK if he doesn't have his gay tactics. If he has access to some of his gay tactics (excluding scrooging and planking to time us out) then he's at an advantage... But ONLY when MK is allowed full use of his gay tactics can he beat us... Then again, can't he hard-counter EVERYONE this way?

Due to the rules having LGLs lately, and the BBR heavily discussing this topic, I'm guessing some limit will be imposed on ledge-play. Since this is true, I see the MU no worse than 40:60 for us.

 

[Asdioh]

Well, Asdioh, I guess my wins against MKs everywhere are lies or something. I mean, not just in PR, but at Pound4 as well. I even did better against Seirbik's MK (1-2) than I did against Pierce's Marth (0-2) in-tourney, and all the friendlies I played against other people's MKs (like Znakeee's, where I lost no matches). But hey, you said so yourself: we can't do anything but lose, even if we gain an advantage and keep it. If the MK is doing it wrong when I win, then the MK is doing it wrong whenever they lose against every other character in the cast, seeing as his MUs are all 55:45+ in his favor, amirite?

>____>

Yeah, they're doing it wrong.

If a Jigglypuff beats like 5 Kirbys in a row, is it in Jigglypuff's favor? No, the Kirbys are doing it wrong.

I always liked to compare Brawl to Chess (since Brawl is kind of like a strategy game, since it's a bit too slow to be a fighting game lolz) so:

Imagine if your opponent (MK) started the game with 2 queens and 2 kings, and you beat him anyway. Did he still not have the advantage? He did, but he just suxxed it up.

Well, Asdioh, I guess my wins against MKs everywhere are lies or something. I mean, not just in PR, but at Pound4 as well. I even did better against Seirbik's MK (1-2) than I did against Pierce's Marth (0-2) in-tourney, and all the friendlies I played against other people's MKs (like Znakeee's, where I lost no matches).

Yes, I've beaten tons of MKs too, but then I play the ones that are
1. good
2. have Kirby experience

and I realize how futile it really is.

I'm not saying you won't beat them ever, I'm just saying that realistically, if you're playing in a tournemant match against a MK that knows what he's doing and wants to win, you're going to find yourself in the corner with few options and you really should not win.

Also, http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=267257
it's kind of sad how MK's planking has been proven to be enough to make him banworthy, but people still insist on making tons of changes just to keep him in the game :[

He said that he had to play gay to beat me, and pointed towards platform+dair camping. And our uair might beat his dair, but not dair camping. Remember, his dair starts and ends faster than our uair, so all he has to do is aircamp until we throw out an uair, then he hits us. We might have more range, but not speed... And even though I usually get through dair camping this way, I still feel that it's because I outsmarted them and hit them when they least expected it... If it would've been the other way around, I'm sure I couldn't uair through the dair+uair camping.

I'm glad you said that. I agree, just because our Uair can beat his Dair, doesn't mean it shouldn't. Our Aerial Hammer can beat his Tornado, that also doesn't mean it should. You know?






and I say 65:35 at least :/

I consider characters like Snake and maybe Lucario and some others, even including, yes, Ice Climbers, to be around the 60:40 range. They have clear advantages over us, but by outsmarting them we can win. No matter how hard it is, you can maneuver around Snake's stuff, it's just that he has more room for mistakes which makes it in his advantage. Same with Lucario, though he probably has less room for mistakes. Same with Ice Climbers: they're difficult, to a point, but once you separate them you can and should get rid of one, making the matchup in your favor.

Metaknight, like Snake, has lots of room for mistakes, and more importantly, his mistakes are hard to work around. I've always thought of the matchup as "If Kirby is hitting MK, MK is either:
1. doing totally the wrong move at the wrong time (Bairing/Uairing when we're like, below him, Dsmashing when we're say, approaching with Bair or whatever)
2. relying on defensive options (such as shielding, dodging) too much... he doesn't really need to use those much when his offensive options are simply way better than ours.
3. standing there and doing nothing.

 

[A1lion835]

He said that he had to play gay to beat me, and pointed towards platform+dair camping. And our uair might beat his dair, but not dair camping. Remember, his dair starts and ends faster than our uair, so all he has to do is aircamp until we throw out an uair, then he hits us. We might have more range, but not speed... And even though I usually get through dair camping this way, I still feel that it's because I outsmarted them and hit them when they least expected it... If it would've been the other way around, I'm sure I couldn't uair through the dair+uair camping.

This seems to agree with my statement about air camping and planking.

Of course MK can hit us easier than we can hit him, which is why the MU is in his favor. He can also kill us easier than we can kill him... But MK is NOT a hard counter. He's got an advantage, and it's obvious, but it's not to the point where the opponent can CP MK and we're probably going to lose because of this (a la Foxika or Wolf:Sheik or DK:DDD). We can go toe-to-toe with MK if he doesn't have his gay tactics. If he has access to some of his gay tactics (excluding scrooging and planking to time us out) then he's at an advantage... But ONLY when MK is allowed full use of his gay tactics can he beat us... Then again, can't he hard-counter EVERYONE this way?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say Kirby can go toe-to-toe with Meta Knight.

Meta Knight has an easier time hitting and killing us (we agree on that). He is also faster. His sword hitboxes have high priority and are comparable in size to our own, but they're disjointed.

For the bolded statement, yes, he can, unless they have a good way of dealing with air camping and planking or can maintain a % advantage.

Due to the rules having LGLs lately, and the BBR heavily discussing this topic, I'm guessing some limit will be imposed on ledge-play. Since this is true, I see the MU no worse than 40:60 for us.

But for now, we have the current rules, which do not limit air camping at all. And MK can still take a reasonable amount of time out of the match with planking.

 

[Kewkky]

But for now, we have the current rules, which do not limit air camping at all. And MK can still take a reasonable amount of time out of the match with planking.

So, we would be the only character community in SWF to actually make the MK MU ratio heavily against our favor because of planking/scrooging alone? If his gameplay is bound to change due to upcoming rules, and we know what those rules' effects will have on the game, why not be one step ahead and put the ratio we know will apply to the metagame then? Heck, all the other character boards do their ratios without considering planking/scrooging (since they're pseudo-stalling, they shouldn't be allowed anyway).

 

[A1lion835]

Since there's no guarantee on what the BBR will decide on in the future (unless I use my amazing fortune-telling powers), we can't use that. And if we DO decide on 70-30 vs MK and the new rules somehow DO prevent MK from stalling, we can just change it to 60-40 after.

 

[Kewkky]

It seriously does not help Kirby's image if we're the only character to put a ratio simply because of a tactic that is being limited as we speak. According to this logic, we should make Falco a disadvantage too. And every other projectile-happy character as well. I mean, if they just spam projectiles and retreat, what can we do?

If you want to, you could ask any other character board why they have a closer-to-even MU with MK, instead of a hard-counter one. I mean, planking is supposedly unbeatable right? How can ICs think they're near even? How can Falco think he's near even? How can Snake think he's near even? MK can just jump out of the way to avoid the projectiles, and there's nothing they can do about it, except wait for the timer to run out. Should they change their ratios too? For some reason their communities marked the MU as near-even, maybe it's because they're not taking into account planking/scrooging?

See what I mean, man? :/

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I don't think any matchup in this game is near neutral to a perfect Metaknight, without any control on air camping, or to a greater extent, off stage planking.

I think every board who claims to have such is lying, or ignoring MK's potential. I also think that every person who claims that any character could even come close to usurping MK from his own tier are seriously delusional.

I really think it helps Kirby's image to make our matchup percentages as realistic as possible so that we are subject to less scrutiny. Inflating the numbers gives people a false sense of security. I don't see why you don't see this because you said it yourself. All MK has to do to turn the tide in his favor is camp more. It would be foolish to ignore this hugely broken feature to an already broken character.

Also, if you gander at the Wario matchups, they all factor in Wario's ability to time matches out given a percentage lead. Afaik, that's why he has a positive or neutral matchup on a lot of the characters that he does. Metaknight is better at getting percentage leads than Wario, with equal or better camping abilities. It stands to reason that this should be reflected in every one of this matchup percentages as well.

 

[Tiersie]

I swear the kirby boards are the most emo boards there is. I mean even the ganon boards have a higher esteem of their character. You know you're doing it wrong when the kirby mains themselves debate for a hard counter. And this has been going on for a while now, why do you think we rarely ever come out with a good MU? It's because you gys get all emo, say "X" player ***** me sooo bad blah 60-40 /wrists.

If you lose a set you shouldn't look at characters first, you should look at players. Asdioh you come out saying that when the MK is good he ***** kirby. BUT WHEN AN MK IS GOOD HE ***** EVERYONE, that's nowhere near enough reason to cry yourself into thinking it's 70-30. The player was better than you, get over it.

It's still really saddening that most of these MU discussions are lead by people who rarely even go to tournaments and most of all don't know what they're doing ( I'm looking at you Mr.Ninja-spike-is-UpB-spiking).

Lastly, you guys should stop debating the scrooging/planking scenario's. Fact is, it's rarely done. Actually only the top players do it because they make money that way, therefore like 90% of the kirby boards will never even encounter a scrooging/planking MK EVER. So just factor that out, because the only regulars here that have even a slight possibility to encounter said gay MK are Kewkky and me.

 

[A1lion835]

While I appreciate good emo jokes and oxymorons, I'm have to disagree with most of your post.

The fact that you think it's insane for me to debate for the matchup ratio (the most useless part of a discussion) I think it should be instead of a better one is so childish that it amazes me. It's like when you're playing a game with your friend and he forgets your score, and you take advantage and say you had 10 more points than you actually did. When was the last time that happened? When you were 5.

I'm sure Asdioh is looking for a way out of his pit of self-despair for losing a set in a 40-60 matchup and is trying to make it more justified, because that's completely something he would do. Meeting Asdioh and my arguments with "Well you must have thought it out wrong because I disagree with the result" is so pro, I'm not even going to give it a response.

It's really sad that, judging by the members of this board, tournament attendance and knowledge of what someone's doing seem to be completely uncorrelated.

Fine, let's stop debating the gays. Honestly, that should be the end of this thread and we should have it decided, but it won't be.

Tourney results would help me see whether or not the last sentence was written at the same time the rest of your post was.

 

[Kewkky]

I seriously think the ratio should be 40:60... After a bit of though, I don't know why we should consider this MU a worse disadvantage just because of a defensive strategy. In Melee, Sheik had her invincible upB ledgegrab and it never got banned... No one could get through that, and if you would grab the ledge she would get back on-stage and now you would be in a disadvantaged position (yes, planking in MELEE! And worse because she's always invincible!)... But MUs never factored that in. Why should we factor planking/scrooging into ours? And with the knowledge that striking SV takes care of the worst scrooging scenario, all that's left is planking as a bothersome threat.

I also barely ever see an MK planking in tourneys because it's such a frowned-upon tactic that the community dislikes and is working on getting rid of. It's a form of stalling that can be forced to stop (grab the ledge, he lands on the stage and you're at a disadvantage... Thus, pseudo-stalling), and the rules state against stalling... I don't think we should count it towards the MU... PLUS it seems to be the only thing preventing us from making it a 40:60.

And if the MK has to completely change his strategy to win... Don't you think that it means something? If it was truly THAT against our favor, he could just kick our ***** and be done with it.

---------
Marth, ROB, Olimar, TL, Peach, Luigi, Wolf, PT, Lucas, Ike, Mario and Link all have 35:65/30:70 MUs with MK. ICs, Wario, DDD, Lucario, G&W, Pit, DK, Fox, Sheik, Sonic, Ness and Yoshi all have 40:60 MUs with MK. Snake, Diddy, Falco, ZSS, Bowser and jigglypuff all have 45:55/50:50 MUs with MK.

Now according to the MK boards' recent MU discussions...
Snake, Diddy, ICs, Falco and Wario are 55:45 MUs for MK. DDD, Olimar, ZSS, Lucario, G&W and marth are 40:60 for MK...
---------

Why aren't these MUs drastically in his favor, then? I mean, they put alco as 55:45, and Falco can do NOOOOOTHING to planking, he literally auto-loses the moment MK gains a stock lead and gets to a ledge. Why should kirby be the only one to deflate his actual MU ratio, when no other board is doing so? Clearly they're addressing everything BUT planking/scrooging... And if this is so, then the MU should be 40:60 for us as well.

Planking/scrooging are literally the only things bothering Kirby in this MU. ICs are worse for Kirby, and I personally find Marth to be a tougher match (40:60 still, though).

 

[Sage JoWii]

Alright Kewkky; with the info from the MK MU thread percentage on how THEY view match-ups, I can see that they don't factor in the invincible MK tactics of planking, scrooging, etc..

The match-up is 40-60.

Also, the Kirby boards are not emo and we are NOT the other boards. We aren't looking to bash ourselves but keep this tournament realistic when discussing this MU. Likewise I don't care what the other boards are doing, they're not Kirbies. If you want Kirby to 'look good' or contrariwise not look bad, perfect this matchup, get out there and place. MU thread discussions are based, a substantial amount, on our opinions but with so few of us having large quantities of tournament experience (Asdioh, Kewkky, myself, and I can't think who else) in and out of our own regions, it's improbable the board will be happy with the ratios because they're based from a tournament standpoint. Now....go to the Snake export and discuss! or go to a tournament and win.

 

[demonictoonlink]

If you read DMG's planking thread you'd know that MK's planking is literally unbeatable.

Just have to call you out here...This statement in wrong in every way. The MK has to have the lead to even start the planking...

Actually there's too much wrong here, but I think you were just trying to exaggerate your pro-ban status. Literally unbeatable...

 

[A1lion835]

Okay, I agree with 60-40. Kewkky made a strong point, and I was already leaning towards it before that.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

<- Thinks it would be a more concise and comprehensive solution to ban Metaknight as a whole character.

I admit to my bias because as I said, in my region, there ARE Metaknights who are willing to play like that.

 

[TaterSalad0811]

(I'm looking at you Mr.Ninja-spike-is-UpB-spiking)

Well excuse me (princess) for forgetting the name of a near-worthless AT.

So in conclusion, it's 40-60 against the MK majority, 45-55 against bad MKs, and 40-70 against gay MKs, and in the end, they learned that individual player skill and knowledge is more important than a MU ratio, and we all need to stop arguing with massive posts.

The Game End.

 

[Ledger_Damayn]

I agree. Metaknight would be able to make matchup percentages go over 100%

 

[TaterSalad0811]

I agree. Metaknight would be able to make matchup percentages go over 100%

...and 40-70 against gay MKs...

Darn, didn't think anyone would catch that. But is gay enough to bring matchups to such high numbers, dare I even ask...

Lol, but this is a gay MU, as is any MK MU, so just learn it and get it over with.

 

[Pez55]

Had to do it

 

[jbandrew]

are u guys using b-air enough? Kirby's best move is Bair as it serves to zone, space and edgeguards nicely. The MK matchup is hard but you just have to be all the more careful. Then again I don't have much exp in it, just reminding ya'll that Bair is for prez!

 

[Sage JoWii]

>.>; Of course BAir is primary for this match up.

 

[C~Dog]

Oh of course, use bair! How did we forget about bair???

 

[Staz]

recent discovery by gkirbz


uair ruins nado

like COMPLETELY shuts it down

kirby can uair nado while IN IT and cause more damage to the mk than what happend to the kirby

plus its hitbox hits mk from every angle before nado can reach you

kirbys uair is the best nado breaker in the game.

 

[Vinylic.]

Not working dude. I dont know if i'm doing it right, but it's not working...

 

[Kewkky]

Uair doesn't do anything to MK's tornado.

 

[Vinylic.]

I'm guessing doing a Special+up would stop it's nado.

 

[Kewkky]

I'm guessing doing a Special+up would stop it's nado.

Hmmmmm.... I don't think so. Only thing I'm 100,000,000% sure stops the tornado AND hits MK is an fsmash (up-angled for maximum range).

Only things that can hit MK out of his tornado are *grounded attacks when his tornado touches the ground, or *very strong attacks with enough range, or *well-timed grabs (pivot grabs do the trick, but I don't about aerial grabs like Yoshi's swallow), or *disjointed multi-hit aerials that can reach inside the tornado and hit MK (dair), or *transcendent-priority attacks (Falco's laser, Kirby's sword [I think its range is too small, and you'll get tornado'd for trying]). Otherwise, you're not going to break through that there tornado.

 

[SkylerSilver]

Hmmmmm.... I don't think so. Only thing I'm 100,000,000% sure stops the tornado AND hits MK is an fsmash (up-angled for maximum range).

The final cutter beam thingy also stops and hits MK out of tornado.

 

[Vinylic.]

Very true. Try reaserching other characters that stops nado. There could be a connection so kirby can copy that specific character and it could stop nado also.

 

[Kewkky]

Hmmmmm.... I don't think so. Only thing I'm 100,000,000% sure stops the tornado AND hits MK is an fsmash (up-angled for maximum range).

The final cutter beam thingy also stops and hits MK out of tornado.

Let's see...

Hmmmmm.... I don't think so. Only thing I'm 100,000,000% sure stops the tornado AND hits MK is an fsmash (up-angled for maximum range).

Only things that can hit MK out of his tornado are blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah or *transcendent-priority attacks (Falco's laser, Kirby's sword [I think its range is too small, and you'll get tornado'd for trying]). Otherwise, you're not going to break through that there tornado.

It's transcendent and disjointed... But the most probable scenario is that MK will hit you with the tornado for trying, or just go the other way and avoid your upB. I wouldn't recommend upB'ing MK's tornado.

 

[SkylerSilver]

It's transcendent and disjointed... But the most probable scenario is that MK will hit you with the tornado for trying, or just go the other way and avoid your upB. I wouldn't recommend upB'ing MK's tornado.

Oh gawd, Me being stupid again for not reading correctly, I thought you talking about the actual sword and not the beam it makes.
I always though UpB was useless against the tornado because its almost always in the air.

 

[Kewkky]

Oh gawd, Me being stupid again for not reading correctly, I thought you talking about the actual sword and not the beam it makes.
I always though UpB was useless against the tornado because its almost always in the air.

Ooooh, riiiight, the beeeeeam. I forgot about that, I just mentioned the sword by itself.

The beam works, actually. It's transcendent too, so it goes straight through the tornado's hitboxes into MK and knocks him out of his attack. Setting it up is a problem though, since tornado moves fast and we have to go through the whole upB animation to get the beam.

 

[MikeKirby]

Quick, deploy the Quick Cutter!

Well if anything just try squeeze as much distance as you can on the projectile. Even, then it would probably never work cause you see it coming and a Metaknight wouldn't start the 'nado that far.

 

[C~Dog]

If you are ever in a position to successfully FC Nado, they are doing something very wrong.

 

[Vinylic.]

Man, this looks almost impossible!