Match-Up Export #7: Diddy Kong (Pre-progress)

[AvaricePanda]

I don't feel that Lylat or Frigate or good CPs either for this match, as both won't really affect either Diddy or Fox to the point of a huge advantage or disadvantage.

I don't understand the whole "Diddy controlling the stage thing". What you should be specifically be concerned with is Diddy's midrange game; Diddy can camp outside your range yet pressure and punish your retreating lasers. Diddy's Fair, banana throws, peanuts, ftilt, grabs, and monkey-flip kicks are all huge assets to midrange game.

To take Fenrir's super TL;DR from the other page:

Ground game: Advantage Diddy

Control Game: Advantage Diddy. Midrange game says hi.

Air game: Evenish? Fair outranges Fox's aerials, and Fox's only real option when you're high above him is Rising Fair, which is not only predictable but easily DIable as well. However, Nair, shine stalling, and Fox's fast fall speed make it hard to actually combat him in the air or juggle him. I don't really consider short hops as air game, and neither character really takes to the skies much in this MU, so yeah.

Approach Game: Definitely Diddy. Fox doesn't really have that safe of approaches (OoS Glide Toss kills Fair and Bair, just as Fair and Ftilt do. Bair->Utilt only works at low percentages and if it hits a sheild, OoS GT says hi). Diddy can approach more safely. If a banana hits a sheild, Fox can OoS Nair, but Diddy can bait this and follow up with an L-cancelled monkey kick or another banana throw if you z-catch the sheild bounce, plus other situations I don't feel like listing x.x

Killing: Slight Advantage Fox? Diddy has a tough time killing anyway, and at killing percents midrange game isn't as safe because one mistake=upsmash in the face. At the same time, it only takes one mistake for the

Edgeguarding vs. Recovery: Advantage Fox. It's much harder to edgehog/edgeguard Fox, and while I've never had a problem recovering against a Fox, it's certainly tougher for Diddy (without a banana in hand, Nair can shut down our ledge-recovery options).

Camping: Definitely Advantage Diddy. Fox can get in lasers, but he can't actually CAMP like Falco/Snake can. The knockback from lasers and the grenades actually make approaching more difficult, whereas with Fox's camping, you can approach, but you just get dealt damage. However, Diddy's midrange game I guess could be considered camping...

Eh, depending on what your definition of camping is, it depends. Diddy can't actually camp long-range against Fox, otherwise...lasers..., but it's easy to approach against Fox's camping.

Comboing/Continuation of attacks: Evenish. Fox can probably chain more stuff at once, but Diddy has more chances to start "combos".

I still think there's a definite advantage to Diddy to the point where the matchup isn't "evenish", but I don't feel that the advantage is large.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I love how this guy disagree's that PS1, LYLAT, NORFAIR AND FRIGATE ARE BAD CP'S AGAINST DIDDY, we might as well CP him to FD, seriously do you hear yourself speak sometimes, wtf

 

[Conviction]

I'm pretty sure we can get inside your inside range DCSG and Shading.

Edit:It's ok Rookie we will breakthrough to him eventually.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

. Please tell me how or why PS1 is so good for Fox to nullify Diddy's being good on the stage?

I dont sit at my desk all day and speak on matchup discussion, i go out and actually play with the ones who KNOW diddy IE: Ninjalink and ADHD soooo yea.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Okay, so please inform me how PS1, Lylat, Norfair (which honestly you can CP along with RC), and Frigate Orpheon are CP worthy. Diddy is good on ALL of those stages.

I'm not asking you to give me an elaborate discussion or anything, I'm just asking of your opinion WHY. Because honestly, when you say, "CP this stage its really good," and call me stupid for saying otherwise when you don't explain yourself, it's not convincing at all, nor does it help any Fox's or Diddy's ACTUALLY know why the stage is good for them and what they can exploit or whatever.

PS1 - This is also one of Diddy's best counterpicks. The main stage is decently sized, and the platforms are a good height for us to short-hop z-catch bananas on. The platforms don't really interfere with our gameplay. On the Fire and Earth transformations, we have chances to double banana lock against the wall. Especially on the Earth transformation, you can d-throw bananas to pressure people in that small space. The grass transformation is neutral for us, while the windmill kind of gets in our way, although overall the stage is a plus. This is really pointless to CP because both characters benefit.

Lylat - This stage honestly isn't bad for Diddy. It really (shouldn't) do anything to either of our recoveries.
Platforms aren't bad for Diddy, but they help you more in this MU (away from short-hop z-catch height for us, they're less accessible overall). It's better, but it's still not as good of a CP as RC or Halberd IMO

Norfair - Diddy's really good on this stage; his throws are great for putting people in the lava, his peanuts arc well across the stage, his side-B across the ledges is good, and if he camps with two bananas at the bottom platform, it's a VERY powerful position, because you don't have many ways to approach and it's easier to predict (and punish) an approach. Again, even though it's a really good Fox stage, it's a really good Diddy stage too, so there isn't a point in CPing it.

Frigate Orpheon - Really neutral, IMO it's better for you than CPing PS1 or Norfair, but RC is still easily a better CP than this, along with most probably Brinstar. The right side of the first part doesn't affect either of us, although the slopes help you a bit more.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Ok just to make you happy, i just want to let you know that i understand your character is broken and that he doesn't take that much skill, im fully aware of that, and CP'ing isn't easy at all. He's good on every stage and i knew that since last year, get it thru your head that these are our stages to choose from because your character is so dumb.

BTW brinstar is a good CP guys but you must learn brinstar with fox its not that easy

 

[ADHD]

Ok just to make you happy, i just want to let you know that i understand your character is broken and that he doesn't take that much skill, im fully aware of that, and CP'ing isn't easy at all. He's good on every stage and i knew that since last year, get it thru your head that these are our stages to choose from because your character is so dumb.

BTW brinstar is a good CP guys but you must learn brinstar with fox its not that easy

That hurts my heart rookie

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't understand the whole "Diddy controlling the stage thing". What you should be specifically be concerned with is Diddy's midrange game; Diddy can camp outside your range yet pressure and punish your retreating lasers. Diddy's Fair, banana throws, peanuts, ftilt, grabs, and monkey-flip kicks are all huge assets to midrange game.

Diddy, thanks to Bananas, good ground speed, his dash attack, and even monkey kick and peanuts, is very good at throwing out quite a few options... covering a lot of ground, and feinting opponents into mistakes. His ability to provide thatk kind of variable pressure and cover the amount of space pretty effectively is what we are calling "controlling the stage". This is mainly focused around his midrange game.

To take Fenrir's super TL;DR from the other page:

I'm verbose, I know

Ground game: Advantage Diddy

Control Game: Advantage Diddy. Midrange game says hi.

Air game: Evenish? Fair outranges Fox's aerials, and Fox's only real option when you're high above him is Rising Fair, which is not only predictable but easily DIable as well. However, Nair, shine stalling, and Fox's fast fall speed make it hard to actually combat him in the air or juggle him. I don't really consider short hops as air game, and neither character really takes to the skies much in this MU, so yeah.

Diddy's Fair trades or is beaten by both Fox's Fair and Bair straight up. And when you are high above Fox, you have to come down. Fox likes to stay on the ground here... and it usually is a very scary option, given that shield usmash is scary. I agree with the last sentence, though.

Approach Game: Definitely Diddy. Fox doesn't really have that safe of approaches (OoS Glide Toss kills Fair and Bair, just as Fair and Ftilt do. Bair->Utilt only works at low percentages and if it hits a sheild, OoS GT says hi). Diddy can approach more safely. If a banana hits a sheild, Fox can OoS Nair, but Diddy can bait this and follow up with an L-cancelled monkey kick or another banana throw if you z-catch the sheild bounce, plus other situations I don't feel like listing x.x

First of all, OoS GT is not an answer to every situation, because Fox plays this game to keep Diddy from controlling with his bananas. You cannot assume that Diddy will always have a banana (yes, I've played good diddys...) I agree that he will usually be holding one, but again, if that is your only answer here, Fox wins.

GT also doesn't kill Bair or Fair.. don't know where that came from. Bair autocancels, and Fox jumps before any GT... or utilt wrecks the GT. Bair Utilt beats OoS GT, as we have more time to perform the move and get out of the way than you do to perform yours. OoS Nair for Fox is always safe when used as I originally called it. It is simply a resetter of spacing on a hit on shield. Why would we OoS Nair a banana?

Killing: Slight Advantage Fox? Diddy has a tough time killing anyway, and at killing percents midrange game isn't as safe because one mistake=upsmash in the face. At the same time, it only takes one mistake for the

One of Diddy's bigger flaws is that he lacks in killing ability... He has kill moves, but they are a bit weaker, don't have guaranteed lead ins (GT forward is not guaranteed...it's a good in, but he will still need more), and Diddy usually will lose the killing game. Especially to one of the better killers in the game.

Edgeguarding vs. Recovery: Advantage Fox. It's much harder to edgehog/edgeguard Fox, and while I've never had a problem recovering against a Fox, it's certainly tougher for Diddy (without a banana in hand, Nair can shut down our ledge-recovery options).

I feel the last two points are what make this match for Fox...he simply kills better, on stage and off... Nair and Dair both set you up in really bad positions, and Diddy has trouble avoiding them...

Camping: Definitely Advantage Diddy. Fox can get in lasers, but he can't actually CAMP like Falco/Snake can. The knockback from lasers and the grenades actually make approaching more difficult, whereas with Fox's camping, you can approach, but you just get dealt damage. However, Diddy's midrange game I guess could be considered camping...

Eh, depending on what your definition of camping is, it depends. Diddy can't actually camp long-range against Fox, otherwise...lasers..., but it's easy to approach against Fox's camping.

Comboing/Continuation of attacks: Evenish. Fox can probably chain more stuff at once, but Diddy has more chances to start "combos".

I still think there's a definite advantage to Diddy to the point where the matchup isn't "evenish", but I don't feel that the advantage is large.

Okay, so please inform me how PS1, Lylat, Norfair (which honestly you can CP along with RC), and Frigate Orpheon are CP worthy. Diddy is good on ALL of those stages.

I'm not asking you to give me an elaborate discussion or anything, I'm just asking of your opinion WHY. Because honestly, when you say, "CP this stage its really good," and call me stupid for saying otherwise when you don't explain yourself, it's not convincing at all, nor does it help any Fox's or Diddy's ACTUALLY know why the stage is good for them and what they can exploit or whatever.

As Rookie said... Diddy is actually pretty adaptable, so a solid CP is hard to find. RC is l losing popularity in the tournament list (at least where I am), so it is not a guaranteed CP...

PS1 - This is also one of Diddy's best counterpicks. The main stage is decently sized, and the platforms are a good height for us to short-hop z-catch bananas on. The platforms don't really interfere with our gameplay. On the Fire and Earth transformations, we have chances to double banana lock against the wall. Especially on the Earth transformation, you can d-throw bananas to pressure people in that small space. The grass transformation is neutral for us, while the windmill kind of gets in our way, although overall the stage is a plus. This is really pointless to CP because both characters benefit.

sure... both players like it. that's ok, though.

Lylat - This stage honestly isn't bad for Diddy. It really (shouldn't) do anything to either of our recoveries.
Platforms aren't bad for Diddy, but they help you more in this MU (away from short-hop z-catch height for us, they're less accessible overall). It's better, but it's still not as good of a CP as RC or Halberd IMO

Tilting also does more to bananas than anything Fox has... it gives Fox a slight upper-hand...and that's an ok CP thought for me.

Norfair - Diddy's really good on this stage; his throws are great for putting people in the lava, his peanuts arc well across the stage, his side-B across the ledges is good, and if he camps with two bananas at the bottom platform, it's a VERY powerful position, because you don't have many ways to approach and it's easier to predict (and punish) an approach. Again, even though it's a really good Fox stage, it's a really good Diddy stage too, so there isn't a point in CPing it.

Some tourneys ban it, and I wouldn't CP this for Diddy even if they didn't...

Frigate Orpheon - Really neutral, IMO it's better for you than CPing PS1 or Norfair, but RC is still easily a better CP than this, along with most probably Brinstar. The right side of the first part doesn't affect either of us, although the slopes help you a bit more.

The right edge not being there hurts your recovery worse than Fox's, since we already established that Fox can put you in bad positions... and he can shine stall to wait out the moving platforms. The slopes help Fox a little bit, too... and overall, I feel it's one of the better Fox CPs out there.

so... yeah

 

[718_ROOKI3]

That hurts my heart rookie

but your the best diddy, so cheer up. how about i take you out to dinner bro, its on me. lmao. i hope to see you soon. sorry for disappearing off the face of the smash tourny scene

 

[AvaricePanda]

@Fenrir (I can't do the quote thing since you're doing that to me, lol).

Approaching

-Before you said that you could OoS Nair an approach from us as a spacing resetter. Often times, an approach is going to be a banana throw from some direction, and sheilding it leaves you open for a grab, so if we approach, you'd OoS Nair. But if you just do a standing OoS nair, we can run in with a sheild and sheild grab it., which we can still do with a retreating nair but retreating is generally safer.

-But if you're approaching, it's not as safe. If you do a Bair and we aren't holding a banana, you either get sheildgrabbed if it's not spaced, or if it is spaced then we can do a retreating Fair before the utilt hits us, or wait for the first utilt and do OoS USmash, or just roll away or something (more time between utilt->utilt than bair->utilt to react). If you do a Bair and we ARE holding a banana and you're spaced to a non-sheildgrabbable point, then yes, we will have time to do a OoS GT before you can utilt. Granted, you can just do a bair and jump or bair and shine before we can GT, but we can also just dribble away instead of throwing away the banana and reset spacing.

-Plus, when are the times that you'll have a chance to actually space a Bair to approach in the first place? Not many, given mid-range pressure; when you come close we'll already be retreating and trying to throw a banana or get in a Fair, or monkey kick, or whatever. The chances of a safe bair hitting a grounded Diddy in this matchup are pretty slim.

-This also kinda ties in with airgame (which I agree with you about Fox wanting you to land, forgot about that) but Diddy's Fair generally beats Fox's Bair. Diddy's Fair, I believe, outranges Fox's Fair, but because of how Fox's Fair is actually used (in an upward motion) then your Fair would actually beat ours. Straight up, Diddy's Fair wins. But again, in this matchup neither character is in the air often.

-And if you do a short-hop fair to approach, we can just sheildgrab or crawl under it and Dtilt if we don't have a banana, and wait for you to land if we do have a banana.

-I forgot to finish the part on Killing. I said slight advantage Fox because while Fox just needs one mistake on our part to get a kill, the same goes with Diddy, but Diddy needs you to be like 40% higher. Plus, if not spaced correctly, a trip to Fsmash/Dsmash won't work (you can stutter step the Fsmash but the Fsmash is more easily DIable). However, flat our running upsmashes (which are really predictable and aren't even that good in the first place unless someone lands from a really laggy aerial) can be sheildgrabbed w.o banana or jump+dthrown with. Still, it only takes one slip up, and Fox can cover a lot of ground with dash+usmash.

-I say slight advantage Fox on Edgeguarding, not because I feel like Fox gimps Diddy easily (I've never had trouble with a Fox actually gimping me unless I'm recovering from directly below, which shouldn't ever happen, just as it shouldn't for you), but Fox can actually edgeguard Diddy and make it difficult for him to get back on stage moreso than Diddy can do the same. Because of your rising fair and shine stalling, your stage gettups are a lot more unpredictable.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Somebody drop a number on this match-up i'd say 50-50

 

[Toronto Joe]

60/40 diddz

 

[AvaricePanda]

55:45 Diddy. IMO only slightly more than that, less than 6:4 but more than 55:45.

 

[Count]

I'll agree with 55:45 diddy, diddy boards used to have it as even but I believe now this is how we consider it.

 

[ADHD]

I'll agree with 55:45 diddy, diddy boards used to have it as even but I believe now this is how we consider it.

Count ftw i second this!

 

[Zhamy]

The way I see it - Diddy has a slight advantage in that Fox can't get around his stage control game completely, but past that, the matchup is more or less even - tipping the scales slightly in favor of Diddy.

55:45 - 60:40 Diddy

 

[Fenrir VII]

Meh, I think Fox is one of the better at getting around the bananas... since SHFair is an applicable way to pick them up, and Fox has ways of punishing hardif he does have a banana...

that and the edgeguarding, I think... really give Fox an edge here...

I'd call it 5-5 still.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

50-50, 55-45 one or the other nothing more or less than that

 

[Area_6]

i'll agree with count.

Edit: me and count just played 4 game which ended 2-2. we played Sv 3 times and frigate once.
Frigate to me is in each players favor. The starting map is small and its hard for me to grab a banana and laser camp diddy. But when it flips it seems to be all for fox. most the time when the banana is thrown it won't make it up the ramp. And the length of the map makes it's easier to camp diddy.

What i may also add is on the starting frigate map its easy to punish diddy's recoveries on the moving platform so that can also be in foxes favor.