Match Up Discussion: R.O.B. ~

[BacklashMarth]

Ok from my experience with fighting ROB with Marth i have found dancing blade and counter to be my best friend. He has moves that are easy to counter (Nair, Bair, etc.) so throw out an occasionall SH counter here and there if the ROB is bein an agressive pest. For approaching, i have found it best to make it safe for ROB to projectile camp so he wastes his lazer or gyro (mainly the lazer). When he shoots his lazer, dash in and take advantage of the time he has where he cant use it (same goes for the gyro). Dash in and if u see him spot dodge, u can whip out dancing blade and use the down variation at the end to poke him as he loses invicibility frames. Or you can dash into shield and wait for his reaction then act accordingly. Killing rob is the hardest part, giving him damage...not so much.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

For killing ROB you can attempt to bait a Dsmash, shield it if you can, and then Dolphin slash out of shield for the kill at higher percents, it works. SB works as well, although its harder to land.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Ok i wanna augment my last post with this one. Be careful with dancing blade if ROB spotdoges it, his invicibility lasts so long that he can spotdodge 2-4 times and escape completely unharmed from ur attack. I just fougt a ROB online 1-on-1 and i just realised that. However, DB is still a good attack to use against ROB and get him in the air.

 

[feardragon64]

Ok i wanna augment my last post with this one. Be careful with dancing blade if ROB spotdoges it, his invicibility lasts so long that he can spotdodge 2-4 times and escape completely unharmed from ur attack. I just fougt a ROB online 1-on-1 and i just realised that. However, DB is still a good attack to use against ROB and get him in the air.

online=controller input lag. Are you sure you it didn't just end up so that you did dancing blades a bit slower than you normally would? (Although even the fact that doing it a bit slower could let him do that is a bit scary)

P.S. woah topic revive....

 

[Desire]

ehh IIS, u sure? D smash? D: as u know dsmash = HORRIBLE LAG

 

[~ Gheb ~]

45:55 ROBs favour

Robbies Ftilt outranges pretty much everything Marth has and his grabrange punishes the smallest mistake Marth makes...don't space correctly once and you already have to eat a dthrow. ROBs Edgeguarding can easily gimp Marth and Laser + Gyro = camping Galore

 

[Emblem Lord]

Actually ROB boards wanted to give this one to Marth due to his speed and rushdown and awesome defense. ROB has range and camping. Marth has speed and great defense.

Both of them can gimp each other. But Marth is a better killer which is what really evens it up from what I can tell.

ROB's f-tilt is awesome, but Marth's speed is enough to get him in there and plus if he approaches with a run into shield and blocks anything from ROB, then ROB gets punished.

 

[Shaya]

All in all it's consistancy in the moveset that makes the biggest impact.

While Rob does have an f-tilt that outranges all but shieldbreaker, Marth has consistant nicely ranged moves.

D3's ftilt for example I am pretty sure outranges everything Marth has, it doesn't make the match completely in his favour.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth a better killer than ROB? Sure he is, but ROB lives very long and Marth is a leightweight (+poor horicantal recovery) - finishing the other off shouldn't be a problem for either of them.

Punishing: I don't think you can punish spotdodge -> Dsmash very well, regardless of Marths good options out of the shield. Marth is a good punisher but one of ROBs main selling points is, that he's very hard to punish...dsmash, ftilt, dtilt, laser, gyro - none of these (often used) moves leave him open for punishment

Also, how can Marth gimp ROB? The only thing, I've ever seen gimping ROB was MKs Shuttle Loop (that little *******...).

And one last thing: a 45:55 match-up is a neutral match-up so I never said, that ROB has the avantage, although I'm sure he does have an easier time than Marth

 

[Shaya]

Any move that is multi hit and forced (i.e. you can't stop it early), such as the dsmash will result in you getting punished. DI during the dsmash and up b will work. If you hit the shield even easier.

Marth can gimp a rob that is recovering from low. Reasonably situational, but it's food for thought. (Just like how Marth can't 'gimp' Snake, oh wait...)

 

[Emblem Lord]

If Marth hangs on the ledge when ROB is recovering it hurts his options. Basically he would have to come in high and that puts ROB in a bad position.

D-smash can be DIed out of. And Marth can punish any spotdodger with ease. The ROB boards themselves expressed their dislike of Marth's punishment game, since he could punish pretty much any evasive maneuvers that ROB tries.

Marth is a good killer, but ROB is also a bad killer. Marth outspeeds and/or outranges all of ROB's kill moves.

If Marth blocks ANY A move from ROB other then perfectly spaced F-smash, then Marth can punish ROB. This is fact.

ROB has his advantages on Marth and honestly if ROB was a better killer then it would be ROB's advantage. But ROB is not a better killer so it evens out.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth dies much earlier so it does even out...

Also, hanging on the ledge doesn't limit ROBs options. He can just hit Marth with fair and recover again

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth won't be dying earlier though.

They die at the same rate more or less since Marth can kill or gimp and at the very least if he doesn't gimp he can harass ROB since his recovery is slow and he can't dodge out of his up b.

ROB overall has a more solid gimp game, but Marth is slightly harder to edgeguard due to his up b and ROB isn't a good killer at all.

All of ROB's kill moves are outranged by Marth's moves. And they tend to telegraph themselves. This means that ROB has to rely pretty much on gimping alone. But that's nothing new really. I mean..it's ROB. But against Marth his kill moves are even less viable.

If Marth is hanigng on the ledge and ROB is using his up b then Marth has a solid positioning advantage. He could try to Fair. But the risk of getting spiked is great and most ROB's wouldn't want to test that scenario out. It would be safer for them to just recover high and a safe distance away from the ledge.

They both have some good advantages in this match, but it's really ROB's weaknesses that even it out. His lack of solid kill moves in this match, plus his recovery which is very easy to harass means it's easy to build damage or potentially get a kill with a spike.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So you really think Marth can reliably gimp ROB and that the match-up is 50:50 because of that? That's hard to believe for me...

...just another thing, for ROB so-called killing issue: Even his dthrow can finish off Marth JFYI - ROB has enough options, they're just very situational.

ROB isn't easy to finish, due to his weight and his recovery. I doubt, that Marth has much more, than his relatively unsafe fsmash to finish him off, before Marth reaches dangerous %...

 

[bludhoundz]

I haven't seen a Marth vs ROB video where the Marth harrassed ROB offstage.

In fact if anything I'd guess that it would usually be the other way around.

Yes Marth can grab the edge, but ROB's recovery can stall him for half a second until the invincibility frames are gone, and then he can position himself to hit Marth if he wants. He isn't really in danger of a dair if he does a rising nair (above the point where Marth would be able to spike him from, and nair has a hitbox below so if timed right there is no danger of being meteored at all). All ROB really has to worry about from a ledged Marth (unless he positions badly) is a Uair or Bair. ROB's well timed nair, though it has less range, is still a viable tool because ROB has a LOT more air positioning control due to his up b, so he can space himself.

He doesn't have to recover really high, just a little out of Marth's range or in Marth's range while throwing out a fairly large hitbox (though this could be dangerous sometimes, it won't always be).

Also ROB's kill moves are outranged by Marth? Fully charged gyro outranges all of Marth's moves by a ridiculous amount. It may be somewhat easy to see coming but if baited into a certain position Marth can get hit by it. Also Usmash outranges Marth's options if he is above. Nair can also hit Marth fairly easily if he is above ROB (Marth's dair is laggy). Fsmash is outranged but spotdodge -> Fsmash is fairly quick, and can be used to punish some of Marth's slightly laggier attacks. Bair is outranged by Marth but it also pseudo dodges.

Yeah in general ROB will have trouble KOing Marth but it's difficult to argue that Marth outlives ROB. The weight difference makes up for a difference in killing strength and ROB's recovery outshines Marth's by a lot. Their gimp games are comparable -- Marth's moves tend to be better at gimping but he has less leeway in following his opponent offstage for the gimps.

Marth has:
Better rushdown
Slightly better range
Better positioning ability due to quicker speed
Better kill moves
Better shield pressure (SB, DB, tilts)

ROB has:
Better recovery
Heavier weight
Better stage control / zoning (ranged attacks and ftilt)
More aerial mobility

Their gimping game is comparable. Like I said, Marth's moves are better for gimping but ROB can gimp from more places. Against each other however, I'd say at a high level, ROB's gimp game works better against Marth than vice versa. Marth usually won't be able to reach a ROB recovering smart. ROB will have difficulty gimping Marth due to less aerial range but laser / gyro camping from the stage is a powerful tool (not unavoidable) and his aerial positioning ability will give him a few more chances than Marth to gimp.

I'd give it a 50-50.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm not saying Marth is getting gimps left and right, but getting quite a bit of damage on ROB when he is recovering is certainly going to be happening quite a bit.

It's mainly because Marth can potentially gimp and kill while ROB will only be gimping. So Marth ends up with more options for getting those kills.

Plus ROB has to be much more careful since Marth can punish anything he does even a fully spaced f-tilt.

Also hit for hit ROB is weaker then Marth and racks up damage a little more slowly which also helps to even out the match-up.

Like I said the ROB boards were on the verge of giving this one to Marth. I actually gave my thoughts that it was even in their match-up thread. You should check it out.

Also yes ROB can d-throw to kill. When Marth is at like 170%. I hardly call that a solid kill move.

Marth just has an easier time setting up situations where it's a guessing game and he can more easily get kills this way then ROB can. And of course he can throw out a kill move to punish a blocked tilt or a d-smash.

bludhoundz: ROB's f-tilt outranges most of Marth's options.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Forget what I said about the Dthrow. I actually meant Bthrow, which kills Marth far earlier than 170%.
Bthrow from the Edge -> Laser @ 75% = A royally screwed Marth

 

[bludhoundz]

bludhoundz: ROB's f-tilt outranges most of Marth's options.

Yeah I know.

Marth tends to outrange ROB's moves other than Ftilt and his projectiles. Not by a lot though.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Forget what I said about the Dthrow. I actually meant Bthrow, which kills Marth far earlier than 170%.
Bthrow from the Edge -> Laser @ 75% = A royally screwed Marth

Im sorry but this is a very situational kill. 1) marth has to approach R.O.B. while he is at the edge 2) rob has to grab marth 3) marth needs 75%+ damage and 4) the laser has to hit. I'm sure this situation doesnt all that often as to throw the matchup in robs favor. Also, cant marth fair, counter, or airdodge the lazer? for some reason this seems like an escapeable KO but feel free to test it and prove me wrong.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I never said, that it works all the time. It's just a counter argument against the "Marth can Gimp ROB" stuff...neither of these options make a difference in this match-up

 

[VietGeek]

I never said, that it works all the time. It's just a counter argument against the "Marth can Gimp ROB" stuff...neither of these options make a difference in this match-up

It simply implies that both character can take early stocks off each other and therefore strengthens the "even" match-up argument.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes, that pretty much sums it up. However, for other reasons. The "easy" bthrow -> laser kill was just...an example, that has no relevance in a real battle...just like Marth theoretical being able to "gimp" ROB

 

[Emblem Lord]

ROFL.

Marth can gimp ROB.

Is it easy? Not at all. But to say that Marth can't hit ROB during his up b is preposterous.

ROB mains themselves attest to this. They all agree that it's best for ROB to try to come in high, to avoid aerial confrontations since Marth is generally faster and more mobile in the air.

That's all I'm saying.

Anyway, your original point was that ROB had slight advantage due to his f-tilt and gimping ability, but there are other factors that mitigate those advantages is really the main point.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Other factors? Like two punishment proof projectiles? One of them, that can finish Marth off if fully charged?
Beside, you're only argument was Marths punishing. OK, it's great and all but ROB can punish just as good.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth's punishing means that ROB isn't allowed to touch Marth's shield with anything other then retreating aerials or his projectiles.

ROB's punishment game does not compare to Marth's really. Only MK and Snake really equal Marth when it comes to punishing.

Also Marth's rushdown is also an important factor. He doesn't sit there eating projectiles all day.

Hell if that was the case spacies would dominate him.

Also ROB's weakness of being hard pressed to get direct kills means that Marth will live longer and ROB's weight advantage is mitigated. ROB has a better gimp game and more options to keep an opponent away from the stage, but his main problem is getting Marth off or in that bad position when Marth can rush alot better and is a much safer attacker.

Marth will have an easier time getting ROB off the stage, but thanks to ROB's recovery it will be harder to gimp him. But getting in damage is far easier to do because ROB can only attack out of his up b and not dodge. So at the very least Marth can get in damage on ROB when he is off the stage. With Marth if you get him in a bad position you can gimp him, but his up b is fast and very high priority which saves his *** most of the time. ROB can recover from bad positions more easily, but since he is far more vulnerable it's easier to get in damage against him.

Also ROB is generally a bit weaker then Marth hit for hit when you look at the moves that they will both use against each other.

When I look at all the data in front of me, the match just comes off as really really even.

ROB's f-tilt, gimping, and projectiles are nice, but Marth has the tools to even it up. I'm not alone in this either. The ROB boards seem to agree with me from reading their match-up thread.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Whatever you say, man...

 

[Mighty_mo76]

They die at the same rate more or less since Marth can kill or gimp and at the very least if he doesn't gimp he can harass ROB since his recovery is slow and he can't dodge out of his up b.

ROB overall has a more solid gimp game, but Marth is slightly harder to edgeguard due to his up b and ROB isn't a good killer at all.

...but it's really ROB's weaknesses that even it out. His lack of solid kill moves in this match, plus his recovery which is very easy to harass means it's easy to build damage or potentially get a kill with a spike.

ROB = heavier than Marth. Combined with his upB, ROB will defintely survuve longer.
ROB CAN dodge out of his upB. Jus do any aerial or special (most ROBers do fair or nair)

I'm not saying Marth is getting gimps left and right, but getting quite a bit of damage on ROB when he is recovering is certainly going to be happening quite a bit.

Marth just has an easier time setting up situations.

Like I said, ROB will just time their aerials so they can airdodge at the right time and avoid everything.

Setting up situations? ROB can camp and force Marth to take action. ROB has dtilt and jabs in close range guessing games. His spot dodge = great.

Marth will have an easier time getting ROB off the stage, but thanks to ROB's recovery it will be harder to gimp him.

ROB's f-tilt, gimping, and projectiles are nice, but Marth has the tools to even it up. I'm not alone in this either. The ROB boards seem to agree with me from reading their match-up thread.

Are you changing your mind about rob's recovery?

What tools does Marth have?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok...you know what.

Since it's not just Gheb that seems to have a problem with this ratio then...ok.

Clearly, some of you have a problem with this ratio.

I'm just one man and my personal thoughts should only account for so much.

If the rest of you think this match is in ROB's favor then we as a community need to re-discuss it and come up with a more accurate ratio.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm just one man and my personal thoughts should only account for so much.

Not, if that one man has more knowledge about Marth, than somebody, who only uses him as a 2nd (myself)

Honestly, EL, although I think you're often a little too biased, when it comes to Marth, I assume you know a lot more about him than I - or most others on this board - do...

If you think it's even and you have good reasons for it, I can tell, that you're propably closer to the truth than I am.
Besides, by my own definition, a 45:55 is a "neutral" match-up...

 

[Emblem Lord]

More then anything though...is that as a community we need to come together to understand Marth and his metagame.

If the community as a whole looks at the data and they say, "Hmmmmm, I think we should give the nod to ROB", then that's what we should do regardless of what I think. And clearly my evidence was not enough for you to be convinced that the match was even.

I have seen you post. I know you have a good grasp on the fundamentals of fighting games and what elements of a match-up can swing it in either person's favor. So if someone of your intelligence and mindset remains unconvinced then clearly my reasoning is not enough.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I suggest then, that we should invite some ROB players to join the discussion...do you agree?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mmmmmhmmmm.

 

[toasty]

I'll read this eventually...*subscribed*

I'll also play against a Marth a good bunch tonight [I hope]...I'll let you know how it goes and direct him here too (Kadaj...Maverick Ace on the boards)

 

[JCaesar]

Oooh me first! I'm not the greatest ROB ever, but I've played extensively against NEO's Marth so I think I know this matchup pretty well.

ROB's only somewhat safe approach is ftilt, but even that can be dealt with by Marth. This means ROB is pretty much forced to camp, but both of ROB's projectiles are somewhat laggy and can be punished if Marth is nearby because he is so fast in the air.

When either character is above the other one, the one on top is at a severe disadvantage. They both have huge, quick, high-priority utilts and great uairs.

ROB can gimp Marth easier than Marth can gimp him. A well-timed bair from ROB trades hits with the mid and upper parts of Marth's up-B, and it's not hard for ROB to space it. If Marth gets hit by that and has no 2nd jump left, he really shouldn't be making it back, assuming ROB didn't get knocked too far away.

ROB shouldn't be getting gimped much. Up-B -> quick aerial (fair or bair) lets ROB airdodge or use his second jump when he encounters Marth on the way back. A good ROB will rarely be locked in his up-B when he runs into someone edgeguarding him off the stage.

Marth however can outright kill ROB earlier, with a tippered fsmash or an up-B OOS (ugh NEO makes me hate this move so much). ROB can live a VERY long time with good DI though, especially if Marth's up-B is stale. ROB can't outright kill Marth until 120% or so at best, unless he gets a lucky usmash.

ROB also can't do his usual spotdodge -> dsmash shenanigans because of Marth's side-B.

Even after all I've said I still think it's even, 50:50. If ROB runs away firing retreating gyros and lasers and just ftilts the whole match, there isn't much Marth can do about it aside from trying to keep up the pressure as best as he can. It's when ROB tries to fight on even terms that he gets destroyed.

 

[DRaGZ]

Okay, basically everything JCaesar threw in, but I wanna throw in one last thing.

If the Marth is anything but very good, R.O.B. has the advantage, by quite a large margin. That's because spacing against R.O.B. as Marth needs to be perfect whereas R.O.B.'s spacing doesn't have to be.

If the Marth is very good, like high-level good enough to get to the upper echelons of a tournament, and is playing an equally very good R.O.B. (which I assume is what we're all interested in), then R.O.B. and Marth are even, 50:50, and it really just comes to player skill.

I've played both sort of decent Marths and really good Marths (Mike G and P_Noy) and I can tell you, the difference in difficulty is massive.

P.S. Also, one thing I want to add is that Marth can gain a lot of momentum if you let him in this match-up. Like, he can just start battering the **** out of R.O.B. if a good opening presents itself. But R.O.B. has many different things to keep Marth away, but not exactly strong enough to go really aggro against Marth, so most of his game will be keeping Marth away, camping, and poking, then waiting for the kill. It's like Superbowl XXXVII, where it was the Buccaneers, at the time the best defense in the league, versus the Raiders, at the time the best offense in the league. Buccaneers played keep away the whole game while the Raiders kept trying to find holes in the defense to exploit the entire game.

 

[Mighty_mo76]

Sorry EL, I was just being hard on you ^_^

But seriously, JCaesar and DRaGZ have some good opinions.

The reason why I pointed out so many little things was cuz I too main ROB (Marth is also my main.
I don't have a secondary. ROB and Marth receive equal attention form me )

EL is right. We do need to stick together as a community. It's always great when we have discussions like these. Everyone benefits.

 

[cubaisdeath]

gimping rob isn't something I usually go for, unless they are dumb or something. just try to be quick and get inside his range. sometimes you can predict the projectiles, but thats hard. you can see his nair coming a mile away, so if you are playing an edge friendly rob, just wait for that startup, and counter. counter ***** rob's nair, its pretty nice. oh, on the topic of his nair, tipper uairs outrange the nair. thats my 2 cents lol

 

[BacklashMarth]

If you dont like gimping why not jump out at ROB then counter? He has to do an attack to airdodge anyway and they usually do it when you go out to hit them. If they do it before you jump out, then you can try to countering and the worst case scenario is that rob airdodges instead of attacking you. This is just a mix up suggestion for when ROB is trying to recover.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So most ROB players agree with 50:50? If that's the case, I will agree as well

 

[Mighty_mo76]

You know, I'm too tired to think about this matchup right now.

It's 7 in the morning and I is tires. I neez sleeps.

matchup = 50:50