Marth's Zones

[Steel]

In fighting games, each character controls a certain amount of space with the tools that they are given. For example, in Street Fighter Ryu can control the ground with his fireballs while having a very reliable anti-air approach move with his Shoryuken. This can really limit your opponent's options in how they approach and how they must condition you in order to get inside and deal damage.

Imagine Ryu, or even Sagat if you want a gayer character, standing a good distance away from their opponent, now put imaginary "zones" for the space that they control and where it is not safe for their opponent to go... Got it? Their opponent can only advance slowly through their projectiles and going to the air is not a safe approach option due to their anti-air moves. These are very rewarding zones for these characters to be in because they must force their opponent to get around them which may not be easy, all the while they are completely safe.

That was just a short introduction to zones for those who may not be fully familiar with what I'm talking about. Now I'll apply it to Smash and more importantly Marth's game. Do note that this isn't "just spacing."

Marth's Good Zone

I'll be using Sheik for our dummy opponent in this demonstration.

So let's see here...

Sheik is right at Marth's tipper range in this situation. Precisely the area where Marth wants to keep her throughout the match. Why? Sheik can't reach. Let's take a more in depth look at this situation...

Obviously, Green is good, yellow is meh, and red is bad.

When Sheik is in the green zone that means the tip of your sword is in the green zone. Your sword is your pew pew laser and is how you maintain safety while dishing out damage. Notice how the green zone even extends for aerial approaches by Sheik, that's because Marth's hit boxes extend to this zone and/or his aerials beat Sheik's. Not to mention, Sheik isn't exactly the best at being safe even when her aerials are spaced.

Your dtilt easily extends into this zone and your fair does as well when slightly leaning forward. Your up tilt, ftilt, and fair destroy the upper green zone.

Now for the inner yellow zone (the one closest to Marth). This is actually Sheik's primary spacing location because it's where her ftilt (her bread and butter) will start to reach. Marth isn't at a total loss here, but he did give up his safest and most effective zone and is no longer at tipper range. However, dancing blade punishment is at its prime here and Marth can still retreat a fair to reset the situation.

When we come to the inner red zone Marth's options are... grab? And obviously this isn't a good idea unless you're shield grabbing in this situation. If you use Marth's jab you will be hitting them with your wrist basically, very un safe. SHEIK however, has a very good jab and debatably a more rewarding grab game. She will win out here, Marth has no safe options unless Sheik hits his shield with something laggy. Find a way out to reset your zoning.. Getting grabbed by any character is a bad thing with Marth. Marth has a hard time getting out of certain traps, especially if he's put into the air.

Outer yellow. This isn't too bad, Sheik is still relatively close to Marth's tipper range.. he just has to jump forward a tad more for his fair or take a step forward. However, Sheik is starting to gain some more free room.. not want Marth wants in this match. Also, Sheik can attempt to stand just outside Marth's fair range and punish in between his attacks. NOTE: with characters that have more range than Marth (MK, DK, ROB etc), this is the zone they will try to keep you in. You'll be just outside your tipper range while being held back by their tilts.

Outer red. If you let Sheik into this zone then she has plenty of space to move about and **** you as she pleases. She can throw needles, find ways in with her dart like approaches, and if you resort to camping you'll get ***** twice as hard because it doesn't work vs her, just like a lot of characters. If this happens you want to close the distance quickly to limit her options back to nil. Go back and look at the green zone. Exactly WHAT can she do besides run away here? Marth is in full control, especially if Sheik is cornered in that situation.

Understand these zones. Understand Marth's options in these particular zones and even your OPPONENTS options. Knowledge of what your opponent can do vs Marth's range is vital.


Marth's Bad Zones

Below him

We've been over this situation a lot. Marth's laggy dair is very risky to use here, especially because the hit box doesn't stay underneath him for that long. Basically every character attempts to get Marth in this situation because they can all take advantage. Marth is juggle bait and his tools against it are very limited. Avoid this situation at all costs. When recovering don't land high every time, go for the ledge. It's safer.

Another bad zone...

Another bad zone is giving your opponent too much space. When your opponent has space they will take advantage. Falco for example, has one of the best control tools in the game with his lasers. He can bait, camp, condition, and set up with them.

Obviously, Marth can't do anything here. He has to close the distance to get back into that beautiful green zone. Because what happens when you get too close for Falco to laser? He can't do anything. He can't reach you and you can shut down his close-range game. His best option here is phantasm'ng away to reset the situation. This is the case with a LOT of the cast and is why Marth's green zone is super amazing.

---

Under no circumstances in most matches should Marth willingly go beyond that green zone. You can safely attack here. Even if you are facing a character like Dedede, being able to dtilt him outside of his grab range is a great tool. A lot of characters will get frustrated and try and roll around Marth's green zone. Dancing blade easily takes care of this.

I may have forgotten some stuff, but we as a community should discuss Marth's zones more in depth and how certain characters can get around them/force Marth into them (his bad ones). Please, post away.

---

This thread was inspired by HugS' blog: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=16108

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

When they are in the inner red zone can't you DS or DB so that you can get out of that situation?

 

[Steel]

I clearly explained these options are not safe unless your opponent does something stupid.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I clearly explained these options are not safe unless your opponent does something stupid.

When we come to the inner red zone Marth's options are... grab? And obviously this isn't a good idea unless you're shield grabbing in this situation. If you use Marth's jab you will be hitting them with your wrist basically, very un safe. SHEIK however, has a very good jab and debatably a more rewarding grab game. She will win out here, Marth has no safe options unless Sheik hits his shield with something laggy. Find a way out to reset your zoning.. Getting grabbed by any character is a bad thing with Marth. Marth has a hard time getting out of certain traps, especially if he's put into the air.

Actually thats what you said about the inner red I don't see a mention about DB or DS but whatever I'm off time bed thanks for the guide.

 

[Steel]

"Marth has no safe options unless Sheik hits his shield with something laggy"

I thought it was implied >_>

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

"Marth has no safe options unless Sheik hits his shield with something laggy"

I thought it was implied >_>

I think there's a big difference between that and

I clearly explained these options are not safe unless your opponent does something stupid.

So you can clearly explain why DS OOS wouldn't be safe while in the redzone. Plz don't respond with your opponent could be baiting the DS and wait to punish.

 

[ZHMT]

Great thread. Pictures are too good. Hopefully after people read this they will understand where to keep Marth during the match. I have nothing to really add, everything seems fine.

@AlMoStLeGeNdArY, the majority of characters have jabs that beat out all Marths moves in terms of speed. Think of risk over reward when you think of Dolphin Slash, its not worth it really. (Unless your under BF's platform or something)

 

[Pr0phetic]

Good read Steel! I'll try and dig more into this tomorrow. Like ZMT said, this covered the most general idea.

 

[Vitamin_x]

Ah.
Marth's sword is his pew pew laser.

Great thread.
*reads over again*

 

[Albert.]

Steel you should maybe elaborate more on what to do if caught in the red zone.

(in the first one)

It might seem obvious but I usually get ***** by what Pierce would call "Falco's superior Boxing game"

just jump back and swing your sword?

 

[Atria]

Excellent and informative guide IMO. Hopefully I can zone better and improve my spacing game with this! =D

Also, how do MK and ROB have more range than Marth? The only moves I can think of that out range Marth is the final hit of MK's F-tilt and maybe his D-tilt and ROB's F-tilt. (I'm aware that he has projectiles BTW.) Is there anything else? Also, can't shield breaker out range these? Or wouldn't you recommend me to use it even if it's just for out ranging certain attacks? Also, I think Bowser's F-tilt can out range Marth's Fair if I remember correctly...

@AlMoStLeGeNdArY: I think that Math's ^B and >B are primarily used as punishing moves when your opponent hits your shield due to how quick they are which can relate to the shield grab. So, I'm assuming that the only options Marth has in the red zone are that he can either shield grab, ^B or >B his opponent OoS. Although those are good moves, it's still not a favorable position for Marth to be in because he can't take full advantage of his opponent because they aren't getting attacked at the maximum range of his sword. Plus, it's harder for your opponent to retaliate when they are that far away from Marth. Also, on some rare occasions, your opponent can escape the >B combo if you initiate when you are really close to your opponent. I did that once against someone who used Marth and I punished them pretty badly for it.

 

[Sam3231]

Nice colors

lul at the purple monster guy

 

[∫unk]

i dont get it

 

[HugS™]

Thank you for citing my blog when you did this. I'm honored that you would use my blog as an inspiration for this thread. And it's actually quite good. The diagrams are amazing and help bring the point home.

There should be one for every character.

 

[OmegaXF]

Thank you for citing my blog when you did this. I'm honored that you would use my blog as an inspiration for this thread. And it's actually quite good. The diagrams are amazing and help bring the point home.

There should be one for every character.

Steel makes revolutions happen. This is the start of an epidemic.

Onto the actual thread, it was great and I'm just going to say
Marths Good Zone is a Godsend. What character can dramatically increase his attack and knock back on roughly all his moves when zoned in correctly? Which is also why it is so hard Zoning with him because most opponents would prefer to try and keep you in your Neutral Zone. With all the chaos and commotion going on Marth will relatively be Neutral in the Matchup. But every time Marth succeeds in netting attacks in his Good zone he makes a tremendous mark on opponents and changes the game around dramatically. Other characters Green Zones can easily Rack up Damage but Marths Racks up Damage and sets him up and great postions, not to mention a fair amount of knock back to boot. Marth Zoned=**** for all of his matchups...KO's at around 80%.....to good!

 

[Steel]

Steel you should maybe elaborate more on what to do if caught in the red zone.

(in the first one)

It might seem obvious but I usually get ***** by what Pierce would call "Falco's superior Boxing game"

just jump back and swing your sword?

Well I could have put there, but I want some community discussion to happen. But if you're getting ***** by Falco's jabs then you are letting him inside your green zone way to easily. Keep him at tipper range.

@ Atria

One of ROB's best tools in the match is his ftilt because it out ranges us and is tricky to punish if we shield it. MK outranges us with his final ftilt and dtilt. Shield breaker is a very slow move, it's not reliable. Also a lot of ground moves can outrange our fair, but our dtilt is still better than bowser's ftilt.

@HugS

Absolutely, I loved reading that blog and was glad to see someone view the game from a different stand point. I felt it was a necessity to relate it to Marth's game for the community. Thanks for the compliment

 

[Atria]

One of ROB's best tools in the match is his ftilt because it out ranges us and is tricky to punish if we shield it. MK outranges us with his final ftilt and dtilt. Shield breaker is a very slow move, it's not reliable. Also a lot of ground moves can outrange our fair, but our dtilt is still better than bowser's ftilt.

Really? I didn't know that. (Apart from the exception of smash attacks obviously cause most of them have large range to them.) I thought Marth's Fair had a reasonable amount of range and priority to it...Are there many ground moves that out range/prioritize his Fair? If so, why do people use SH Fairs to try and attack grounded opponents then if that's the case? Also, when you say that Marth's D-tilt is better than Bowser's F-tilt, what exactly do you mean when you say that? Does it out range or out prioritize it?

 

[BBoyindo]

Good thread Steel! The pictures are nice and clear as always. I personally do think Dtilt is one of the safer moves when in the red zone, because it is safe on shield, and you can quickly grab, DB, DS, or jab during the IASA frames. Dtilt is one of your best zoning tools anyways because it is so safe on shield, it shield pokes, it has great reach and it is fast. Also when at lower % Dtilt when in the yellow zone puts them right into the green zone again. <3 Dtilt ^^

@ atria
Marth has disjointed and faster attacks, Bowsers Ftilt is not disjointed and much slower. Same reason that Fair and Dtilt are the basis of your walls.

 

[Odigo]

I clearly explained these options are not safe unless your opponent does something stupid.

I thought it was implied >_>

Hmmm.

Anyway, good read. In the end, it still seems like spacing to me. But meh, I get it.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Good read Steel.

 

[Steel]

Really? I didn't know that. (Apart from the exception of smash attacks obviously cause most of them have large range to them.) I thought Marth's Fair had a reasonable amount of range and priority to it...Are there many ground moves that out range/prioritize his Fair? If so, why do people use SH Fairs to try and attack grounded opponents then if that's the case? Also, when you say that Marth's D-tilt is better than Bowser's F-tilt, what exactly do you mean when you say that? Does it out range or out prioritize it?

It out ranges it

I personally do think Dtilt is one of the safer moves when in the red zone

Dtilt isn't safe at all when that close >_>

@odigo

>_>

I’m not catering to the noob here, I’m hoping we’re all smart enough to figure out what I mean without me having to write unnecessary words.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@AlMoStLeGeNdArY, the majority of characters have jabs that beat out all Marths moves in terms of speed. Think of risk over reward when you think of Dolphin Slash, its not worth it really. (Unless your under BF's platform or something)

In the pic he's clearly under the platform on BF. I still think that DS OoS is a good when they are in the red zone. I'll ask another question since you answer responded with a better explanation that steel2nd. Wouldn't DB be safe against a jab considering it has transcendent properties? Also would a retreating fair or bair OoS be safe?

@AlMoStLeGeNdArY: I think that Math's ^B and >B are primarily used as punishing moves when your opponent hits your shield due to how quick they are which can relate to the shield grab. So, I'm assuming that the only options Marth has in the red zone are that he can either shield grab, ^B or >B his opponent OoS. Although those are good moves, it's still not a favorable position for Marth to be in because he can't take full advantage of his opponent because they aren't getting attacked at the maximum range of his sword. Plus, it's harder for your opponent to retaliate when they are that far away from Marth. Also, on some rare occasions, your opponent can escape the >B combo if you initiate when you are really close to your opponent. I did that once against someone who used Marth and I punished them pretty badly for it.

I know this however you can stop the combo after the 1st strike or the 3 strike wouldn't that be enough to at least push them back into the yellow zone? If you do DS OoS wouldn't that be a way to reset spacing and totally get your self out of the red zone?

I’m not catering to the noob here, I’m hoping we’re all smart enough to figure out what I mean without me having to write unnecessary words.

I'm not asking you to cater to me. I asked a simple question because I didn't understand which you didn't explain in clear detail which you suggested that you did. With that said I don't get what your problem is with me however I really am getting tired of you attacking me everytime I post when I'm unsure of something. So with that said What ever problems you have with me can be taken to PM or you can stop being such an elitist douche bag I prefer the latter.

 

[ZHMT]

For the people saying "this works in the close red zone", "that works too", "what about Marth's jab?", "he can dolphin slash btw"...

The reason that Marth is weak when your opponent is right up in Marth's face is because after the opponent shields a move, Marth will always be able to get punished for it. If the opponent spot dodges, and you didnt DB or perhaps dtilt, your definitely getting hit with something. Fast jabs **** Marth. Ike's Jabs, Squirtle, ZSS, exc...

The best thing you can do when your opponent is close up is to either walk away, retreat a nair/fair putting yourself at tipper range, or even ROLLING backwards can be a good decision. Just remember, marth is vunerable until frame 4 with his roll, and most jabs beat that.

When the opponent is up in in my face, I try to spot dodge a move and grab (dsmash at higher percents), grabs will allow me to respace AND follow up at the same time.

When a character like ROB, ZSS, Metaknight outrange you. Stay outside their range and approach more cautiously.

Look at Dedede...his ftilt allows him to hurt you when hes in your green zone. However you can easily PS that move and you get the advantage. But if you get too close your gonna get grabbed, plus there is the chance he can use that ghey spot dodge. Zones are SLIGHTLY different on some characters, just play against them more and ask questions to find out where exactly they are.

 

[Steel]

In the pic he's clearly under the platform on BF. I still think that DS OoS is a good when they are in the red zone. I'll ask another question since you answer responded with a better explanation that steel2nd. Wouldn't DB be safe against a jab considering it has transcendent properties? Also would a retreating fair or bair OoS be safe?



I know this however you can stop the combo after the 1st strike or the 3 strike wouldn't that be enough to at least push them back into the yellow zone? If you do DS OoS wouldn't that be a way to reset spacing and totally get your self out of the red zone?




I'm not asking you to cater to me. I asked a simple question because I didn't understand which you didn't explain in clear detail which you suggested that you did. With that said I don't get what your problem is with me however I really am getting tired of you attacking me everytime I post when I'm unsure of something. So with that said What ever problems you have with me can be taken to PM or you can stop being such an elitist douche bag I prefer the latter.

Because I am elitist and expect you to understand from all the guides that we have on this board. It's frustrating for me to repeat information. I hate repeating myself when I and other members have said it again and again. It's almost spam to me if I have to make a post and I ask myself, ".... How many times have i typed this up again?"

I'll explain fully this time.

DS OoS isn't safe if your opponent doesn't hit your shield with something laggy, good players will bait this or just shield. It's also not safe if you're under the BF platform. You'll still get hit.

If you stop your DB at any time you will suffer major lag and get hit.

You can still USE these options, however unless your opponent messed up they're not RECOMMENDED.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

For the people saying "this works in the close red zone", "that works too", "what about Marth's jab?", "he can dolphin slash btw"...

The reason that Marth is weak when your opponent is right up in Marth's face is because after the opponent shields a move, Marth will always be able to get punished for it. If the opponent spot dodges, and you didnt DB or perhaps dtilt, your getting hit with something. Fast jabs **** Marth. Ike's Jabs, Squirtle, ZSS, exc...

The best thing you can do when your opponent is close up is to either walk away, retreat a nair/fair putting yourself at tipper range, or even ROLLING backwards can be a good decision. Just remember, marth is vunerable until frame 4 with his roll, and most jabs beat that.

When the opponent is up in in my face, I try to spot dodge a move and grab (dsmash at higher percents), grabs will allow me to respace AND follow up at the same time.

When a character like ROB, ZSS, Metaknight outrange you. Stay outside their range and approach more cautiously.

Look at Dedede...his ftilt allows him to hurt you when hes in your green zone. However you can easily PS that move and you get the advantage. But if you get too close your gonna get grabbed, plus there is the chance he can use that ghey spot dodge. Zones are SLIGHTLY different on some characters, just play against them more and ask questions to find out where exactly they are.

So the safestresponse would be a retreating fair or nair while your opponent is in the redzone ?

Because I am elitist and expect you to understand from all the guides that we have on this board. It's frustrating for me to repeat information. I hate repeating myself when I and other members have said it again and again. It's almost spam to me if I have to make a post and I ask myself, ".... How many times have i typed this up again?"

I'll explain fully this time.

DS OoS isn't safe if your opponent doesn't hit your shield with something laggy, good players will bait this or just shield. It's also not safe if you're under the BF platform. You'll still get hit.

If you stop your DB at any time you will suffer major lag and get hit.

You can still USE these options, however unless your opponent messed up they're not RECOMMENDED.

I've read the guides and re-read all of them. In some of the guides it says that DS is Marths best OoS option. Because of the invincibility frames for the first five frames of the attack. So Why does it matter if they are jabbing at you if you can just DS OoS. What does the attack that they do matter?

I thought DB 1st strike was okay to stop at because it gives you options to either jab or grab and great more space even though you are at a disadvantage frame wise. Also I thought stop after DB 3rd strike was a good point because it gives distance and Marth takes a step backwards during the 3rd strike.

 

[ZHMT]

When the opponent is in your face, it takes frames to jump and initiate a nair or fair, some jabs and moves like mk's dsmash even beat this....

Just walking away is the safest option imo.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

When the opponent is in your face, it takes frames to jump and initiate a nair or fair, some jabs and moves like mk's dsmash even beat this....

Just walking away is the safest option imo.

yea but if you're in your shield you would have to drop your shield and then walk away right? Wouldn't you still get hit?

 

[ZHMT]

yea but if you're in your shield you would have to drop your shield and then walk away right? Wouldn't you still get hit?

This is called LETTING your opponent get into the red zone. Your gonna get punished for this mistake you made. What I listed earlier were possible options to escape the situation, however not guarenteed.

Your lucky if you dont get hit when your opponent gets up close, there are no sure fire options here. If there were, the zone would be yellow.

 

[KRiMz0N]

sheik's dash attack would **** you if you walk away

 

[ZHMT]

Like I said, if your opponent is in your red zone, you messed up, and should get punished. If you dont get punished, your opponent messed up and missed an opportunity.

 

[KRiMz0N]

there are plenty of ways for an opponent to get into your red zone without it being your fault though...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is called LETTING your opponent get into the red zone. Your gonna get punished for this mistake you made. What I listed earlier were possible options to escape the situation, however not guarenteed.

Your lucky if you dont get hit when your opponent gets up close, there are no sure fire options here. If there were, the zone would be yellow.

So how do I prevent my opponent from getting into my redzone? I'm not trying to annoy you but I'm just trying to learn and pick your brain since you're a pro. Also I'm trying to figure out what to get out of the red zone since that isn't an ideal situation for Marth.

 

[ZHMT]

If you keep your sword in front of you, use pokes wisely, and mix up your moves, your opponent will have a very difficult time getting into your red zone. (exception Metaknight)

Its still possible, as there are moves that outrange Marth's and there are projectiles. You just gotta know your matchups and play them accordingly.

Note: It is HARD to keep your opponent always in your green zone constantly, VERY hard. Every one makes mistakes, which is when your opponent theoretically should get inside you.

If your opponent is simply abusing sh approaches, shield grab and jab works well here.

 

[KRiMz0N]

it's hard to keep them in any zone, the real problem is reacting right to which zone they're in

 

[Atria]

I know this however you can stop the combo after the 1st strike or the 3 strike wouldn't that be enough to at least push them back into the yellow zone? If you do DS OoS wouldn't that be a way to reset spacing and totally get your self out of the red zone?

Yeah, all of the above would apply IF they do hit. However, there have been some matches where I've managed to SDI out of Marth's >B and have punished him for it, even when they stop it after they realized that I got out of the attack. At worst, I can get a jab in. At other times depending on the opponent's reaction time, an F-tilt.

I've read the guides and re-read all of them. In some of the guides it says that DS is Marths best OoS option. Because of the invincibility frames for the first five frames of the attack. So Why does it matter if they are jabbing at you if you can just DS OoS. What does the attack that they do matter?

I thought DB 1st strike was okay to stop at because it gives you options to either jab or grab and great more space even though you are at a disadvantage frame wise. Also I thought stop after DB 3rd strike was a good point because it gives distance and Marth takes a step backwards during the 3rd strike.

Well, this is true to some extent however, good players can bait you into doing your ^B attack which they will punish. Steel's explained this already I'm sure.

For the >B, remember it's only for the Down B variation. Also, the distance isn't THAT great. Also, Steel already mentioned that Marth suffers from lag when you stop at ANY variation, including the first. You're probably better off shield grabbing if you really wanted to get a grab in.

 

[KRiMz0N]

oh right, good job steel on making us look like we know what we're doing, i see other zone threads popping up now

or maybe you guys know what you're doing and i don't

either way cool stuff

 

[Atria]

oh right, good job steel on making us look like we know what we're doing, i see other zone threads popping up now

or maybe you guys know what you're doing and i don't

either way cool stuff

Yeah, I've found this stuff to be quite interesting, well detailed/explained and informative. I really should study frames more. That stuff is as useful as hell to know IMO. However, I find it a bit hard to grasp. Especially since I can't put I learn into practicality since my Wii stopped working... -_-

Oh well...I've learned quite a lot today. I've got more sections and information to add to my guide now!

 

[VietGeek]

Many people have written zoning guides roughly around the time Steel2nd put his. So far it seems his is more comprehensive but I would not say he's the first. You just noticed them more after you read his.

Anyway I read this earlier in the morning before heading off to bed and it was quite interesting to say the least. Although I don't quite use characters with as long of a sword as Marth anymore.

I'm not jealous. /just proud to know someone who gets sh*t done.

 

[Atria]

Oh, I forgot to ask, would the zoning change by any chance against a certain character or is this just the general one for Marth against the majority of the cast?

 

[Face124]

oh right, good job steel on making us look like we know what we're doing, i see other zone threads popping up now.

Steel makes revolutions happen. This is the start of an epidemic.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=229109

bam!