Marth Q&A-Ask your questions here!!

[JBM falcon08]

falco's who spam and place lasers very well seem to be really hard to beat for me.

i know what to do, but i feel that there is more that could be done.

i have started using counter and it helps tons, but the matchup is still difficult probably my hardest matchup.

tips?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

wd shield is good

 

[JBM falcon08]

problem with that is they will simply put pressure on you with lasers, even if you ws around you'll get laser pressure on your sheild making it WAY easier to get grabbed.

 

[IrArby]

@That M2K fast1one vid: You can still tech it though right? His application is much cooler and more useful for sure. That tactic is pretty sweet. I was thinking how I would get around it besides hopefully ledgeteching and I thought oh I'll just airdogde if I'm level with him but then you can still UpB out of shield or wavedash out though that'd be a little dangerous so close the edge.

Then again if you Nair the shield the second hit should hit him before he can hit you right?

Just to clairfy what I was saying is using completely different properties of the shield.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Dashdance shouldn't usually go into fsmash, that's just silly. Use another approach, EmblemLord wrote an entire guide on it.

Fsmash is pretty laggy, most characters (barring like... Zelda) can wavedash to grab you. If you tipper it though, you can avoid it.

Mines are different for ledgeteching 'cause they have a lot more hitstun than you'll ever encounter.

And yeah, fsmash sends pretty much the same direction throughout, DI will change it though.

EDIT: Also, there's a guide from EmblemLord on getting around lasers.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

but isnt it really hte only way you can practice ledgeteching by yourself?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, pretty much. It's good practice, don't get me wrong, but just keep the hitlag in mind.

 

[halcyon.days]

In a Ken vs. M2K vid, Ken used a full Dancing Blade combo (or whatever side B is called) against M2K. M2K blocked and then wavedashed to do something (I'm assuming grab), but Ken was able to get a Dolphin Slash off and kill M2K.

However, it seemed like M2K had a very small window of time to do something, so was Ken just lucky? Or do you have enough time from the shieldstun to up-B after it?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

can you link the vid? just so we can see?

 

[IrArby]

I believe UpB's hitbox comes out sooner than any of his other attacks which explains why Ken used it. Trying to UpB out of a foward B combo is tricky as the game might register as part of the Dancing Blade combo.
If you could link the vid that'd be best since it may be possible that M2K did something to break his combo. Come to think of it, is M2K playing as Fox or Marth? I think they're are more vids of them where he plays Fox rather than Marth dittoing Ken. If he's playing Fox then he may have jabbed him. It could be a lot of things really. So in short, this post answers nothing. I apologize for wasting your time.

 

[JBM falcon08]

ken got lucky, m2k simply just didn't react fast enough for the grab.

yes he was using fox.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I'm kinda ashamed that I know exactly the video you're talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y5iXByT-nI&fmt=18

It starts at 0:39.

The Dolphin Slash comes out at frame seven though, so it's definitely not Marth's fastest attacks. His jab and fair both come out on frame four.

Anyway, it worked mostly because of the wavedash adding lag to Mew2king's next action. Fox's wavedash takes fourteen frames, which is pretty hefty.

 

[ArcNatural]

The Dolphin Slash comes out at frame seven though, so it's definitely not Marth's fastest attacks. His jab and fair both come out on frame four.

For anyone who doesn't realize, Marth's fair does not come out on frame four if Marth is initially grounded.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Okay, yeah, but just saying.

 

[halcyon.days]

Yeah, pretty much. It's good practice, don't get me wrong, but just keep the hitlag in mind.

So the only difference is that you can SDI for more frames when you're practing ledge-teching by mines?

Also, when there's an absence of people to play against, it gets tiring just practicing comboes on level 1 CPUs. What do you guys do to get better when you've no one to play against?

One last thing, does fast-falling after wavedashing back off a stage (to edgehog) or not make a a difference?

 

[SHDW23]

One last thing, does fast-falling after wavedashing back off a stage (to edgehog) or not make a a difference?

yes.

you should probably do it every time.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

The timing can be different too, because some people might wait a little longer whereas mines will always go off at the same point.

And yeah, fast falling after the wavedash does make a difference.

 

[halcyon.days]

The timing can be different too, because some people might wait a little longer whereas mines will always go off at the same point.

And yeah, fast falling after the wavedash does make a difference.

Just press down and towards the stage after wavedashing? I've tried to do it but I just seem to overshoot it.

EDIT: Nvm, got it down pretty fast.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yeah fast falling is huuuuuge...i actually just figured that ish out too

 

[elvenarrow3000]

What you're supposed to do is just tap down as you fall off and immediately let go, so you fastfall without not grabbing the edge.

 

[Ndot]

yea, you don't want to keep holding down or you fall past the ledge, and could possibly get edgeguarded or edgehogged.

 

[ArcNatural]

So the only difference is that you can SDI for more frames when you're practing ledge-teching by mines?

Also, when there's an absence of people to play against, it gets tiring just practicing comboes on level 1 CPUs. What do you guys do to get better when you've no one to play against?

To answer these two questions:

1. The main difference with Marth is that his sword reaches out above and in front of him. So you will often hit the mine well before you would normally have to tech. Other characters have a much easier time teching the mines (not that it isn't doable with Marth, but it is harder).

One big thing I do to practice is plug in two controllers, turn handicap on, pick Bowser as the other human controller and whoever you want to practice with. Turn your handicap to 1 and the Bowser's handicap to 9. Now when you shffl Bowser will barely move until like 400%. This enables you to really practices spamming shffls in a variety of ways really quickly, enabling you to really get the hang of l-canceling every single move quickly. It's also a good way to practice pillaring with any character that can pillar. You can mimic the shield stun too by using stars, or you can use AR to have infinite shields.

The only other thing when not playing friends is to focus on movement tricks. Running around battlefield, yoshi's, etc. just wavelanding everything, wavelanding off to aerials, to edgehog, ledgehop waveland to dash, etc. Just basically doing moves and practicing moving out of them asap.

This to me is all you can really do for practicing alone besides just comboing comps or teching. I feel like you can't really learn proper tactics unless you practice them on an actual person.

 

[SHDW23]

The only other thing when not playing friends is to focus on movement tricks. Running around battlefield, yoshi's, etc. just wavelanding everything, wavelanding off to aerials, to edgehog, ledgehop waveland to dash, etc. Just basically doing moves and practicing moving out of them asap.

this is really good advice. i have to play comps a lot and this translates really easily to playing people. movement has become so critically important to high level play that this is a good thing to know. and there are so many different ways to practice it and combine them that it takes a long time to get old.

 

[halcyon.days]

The main thing that makes me lose stock(s) is when I get on a higher platform than my opponent. I have a very hard time getting down and I usually get combo'd to death. I try to wavedash off, or mindgame my way off but it usually just ends up with me being dead.

Any tips? (<-- lol pun)

 

[ArcNatural]

The main thing that makes me lose stock(s) is when I get on a higher platform than my opponent. I have a very hard time getting down and I usually get combo'd to death. I try to wavedash off, or mindgame my way off but it usually just ends up with me being dead.

Any tips? (<-- lol pun)

Learn to aim your shield, lightshield to get pushed off, jump to another platform, fastfall through platform, etc.

Who do you actually play against that give you problems and what do they do?

 

[IrArby]

Shai dropping helps. Look it up on youtube and that has a smashboards explanation link. Also, Light Shielding will cause you to slide more when someone hits you hopefully right off the platform. Thats my advice but I'm sure some other people will have better advice to add on to that.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Or you could just... run off...

 

[DtJ Jungle]

or you can n00b it and run off...

 

[ComboTurtle]

good things do vs a good peach player, di etc i need to know everything!

 

[DtJ Jungle]

nair or fair to grab to utilt then ust dont let htem hit the ground describe how the peach plays so we can h elp

 

[elvenarrow3000]

What you want to do first is stop their turnip game. You can do this by staying just outside of anything they can do to you, but within threat range, so they can't pull turnips before you can hit them. Turnip pulls are actually pretty slow, so it's not too hard to do.

Then, shut down everything else they can do. Peach is a very slow character. Her float is slow and so is her run. So just space yourself out, don't use anything overly laggy and you'll completely take her apart. Watch the falling fair though, it's got a crazy hitbox that hits like right below her at some point.

Grabs work really well against Peach, as she's floaty, so you can catch her and finish with an fsmash or utilt or something along those lines. Ken Combos work too. Mostly, you'll want to keep her above you, as her options are severely limited there, since her dair has no priority and she can't pull turnips there. If she floats around, just follow her.

If she manages to grab you, look at your percent. At higher percentages (like over a hundred), expect the fthrow. DI up and towards so you don't die. At lower percentages, watch for the dthrow. DI down and behind her so you don't get combo'd after it.

If she manages to pull a turnip, nair through the throw. If she pulls a scary turnip, don't be afraid. Just keep hitting her, and try to avoid getting hit by the turnip.

If you're recovering against Peach and she's standing on the ledge, tap L or R as you're rising with the Dolphin Slash and you'll tech the dsmash if she uses it. It's pretty easy to do. Also, if she throws turnips, save your double jump and try to avoid them the best you can.

Oh yeah, and don't crouch cancel the dsmash.

 

[halcyon.days]

Learn to aim your shield, lightshield to get pushed off, jump to another platform, fastfall through platform, etc.

Who do you actually play against that give you problems and what do they do?

I only started playing against other people in Late August. The person who is ranked number 1 in my city happens to live pretty close so I smash at his place (I usually get destroyed). But his Marth is what always gives me the most problems (with me trying to maneuver around platforms and just the general matchup itself).

 

[Proverbs]

Just out of curiosity but does anyone take advantage of the fact that Marth's over+B pops your opponent up in the air a bit? It could be used to get your opponent into the air to chain into an attack. Reason why I say this is because your opponent typically isn't going to have the reaction of airdodging (if there was time) or trying to attack right afterward. And they can't put up their shield as they'd be in the air.

Just curious if this property of Dancing Blade could be made of use at all.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I've seen it done... I'm not a huge fan. The jab is faster in every way than the Dancing Blade and neither set up anything guaranteed... at least I don't think they do. The spacing is also wonky. But at higher percentages, it's something that Marth can use.

I'd say use it if it works for you. A lot of stuff people do isn't guaranteed anyway... like jab combos. People've started nairing/dsmashing me out of them =(

 

[ArcNatural]

I've seen it done... I'm not a huge fan. The jab is faster in every way than the Dancing Blade and neither set up anything guaranteed... at least I don't think they do. The spacing is also wonky. But at higher percentages, it's something that Marth can use.

I'd say use it if it works for you. A lot of stuff people do isn't guaranteed anyway... like jab combos. People've started nairing/dsmashing me out of them =(

Yeah metagame is increasing waaaay too fast now. I saw the SS vs Tang set at their recent tournament, SS is just... a work of art.

I need to know the answer to the following question:

How much tip could a Marth's tip tip if a tip could tip a tip?

 

[SHDW23]

i sometimes use the DB when coming down out of the air. if it is timed right you can hit your opponent and then the side b causes you to float for enough time to get in a fair before you land. it's a nice 10-15% even if it leads into nothing and it's not that punishable. if you don't do the fair, you can usually avoid a shield grab too. starting with DB also allows you to attack in either direction without of having to worry about the bair's lag and such.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Uh... five?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

i sometimes use the DB when coming down out of the air. if it is timed right you can hit your opponent and then the side b causes you to float for enough time to get in a fair before you land. it's a nice 10-15% even if it leads into nothing and it's not that punishable. if you don't do the fair, you can usually avoid a shield grab too. starting with DB also allows you to attack in either direction without of having to worry about the bair's lag and such.

First hit of falling DB -> FFL (tip I think) Uair -> Utilt ftw

EDIT: I'm pretty sure I've seen Ken juggle Chu's single IC (was it both?) with the first hit of DB on the ground a couple times

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It was a single one, MLG Dallas, long time ago.

FFL? What's that?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Fast fall lcancel