Marth: Official Character Discussion

[Ulevo]

Discussion for Marth. Anyone can suggest anything for any of these topics, and it'll be noted. Popular suggestions/values will be marked as such. Final values will be determined by popularity, so voice your opinion!

Suggested Offensive Modifications:

Suggested Defensive Modifications:


Default Physics:
SH:
FH:
FF:
DGrav:
Grav:

Physics Changes:

Specific Move Fixes:


Anything else:

 

[goodoldganon]

We buffed Marth's f-air saying that we were gonna nerf his DB. Sooooooo, it can't come fast enough. How are we gonna do it? Damage nerf and lower KB on the final fits?

 

[CT Chia]

can his overB plz do less damage? especially since its looking like damage stalling may not be possible

 

[leafgreen386]

Pretty much every hitbox needs at least a 1% damage reduction, and the last hits should not be killing until much higher percents. Tbh, we can probably fix the kill problem and the damage problem at the same time by just dropping their damage, will will thus drop their growth.

 

[leafgreen386]

K, so we've nerfed the sideB and upB and agree marth needs more nerfs. There are a ton of things we can do to tone him down, but we'd run into MK syndrome where he's either too good or horrible; a lot of things we can do would literally ruin marth. 200% ALR on fair was a suggestion I saw. I think this is an absolutely horrible idea, since it would ruin legit tactics marth has, such as fair -> dtilt, or removing his ability to ken combo. It would destroy marth as a character.

So what I propose is a damage reduction, like squirtle. We would of course compensate his growth so the moves still act the same just with less damage output. I think we're really overlooking how powerful damage reductions can be to nerf characters, while still keeping their playstyle completely in tact.

Oh yeah, and to fix the cinematic hitlag problem... we might be able to fix it just by changing the hit type of his moves from slash to something else. Problem solved.

 

[_Yes!_]

Quoting what I said in another thread:

Marth's upB: It's true that this move was too powerful, but it was nerfed way too hard. Not being able to kill Squirtle at 150% (as vex proved in tourney at BTL) is pretty ludicrous. The only way Marth can kill is a hard to land tipper and gimping, but since his recovery is meh the latter option is rather risky.

 

[storm92]

Quoting what I said in another thread:

Agreed here.
The upB is overall a pretty gay move with the invincibility frames abound and all, but I think we overnerfed it in KO power. Although Marth remains one of the top characters, he is seriously missing that move. Is there any way we could change up the invincibility frames, or are they still untouchable/unmovable?

 

[Revven]

The invinc frames are still unable to be gotten rid of and or cannot be changed in any way yet.

 

[Magus420]

The invincibility shouldn't be removed even if it were possible to do so =/

Dunno why the idea of invincible startup on a rather punishable move seems so foreign and requires 'fixing'.

 

[Dark Sonic]

If it makes you guys feel any better Sonic's side B is invincible on release, can be jump canceled and shield canceled, and is still not ****** people <_<.

Invincibility on moves is not as big a deal as you make it out to be.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Its not nearly as fast though lol.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Its not nearly as fast though lol.

That wasn't the point. The conotation was that it's invincibility will make it spammable.

Would it be better if I used Bowser's up B as an example? It's hitbox stays out longer, it has less ending lag, and currently kills better than Marth's up B.

Lot's of moves can look broken when taken out of context. Unless your strings are within 3 frames from being a combo, Marth could also just counter instead of up B (which is much, much safer and right now is not that inferior in terms of rewards).

Marth's up B was overnerfed. Sure it has invincibility frames and comes out fast, but it also has a very breif strong hitbox (and the weak hitbox is pretty punishable on hit unless you're all the way at the top or something <_<) and has ridiculous end lag (not to mention the time it takes to fall to the ground). Even with it killing at high percentages, it's still a balanced move (you DIE if you miss it and you can't reliably combo into it).

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Marth's Up+B doesn't need to kill to be effective. What make it ridiculous before was that it was not only a combo breaker, but even with the ending lag it hit hard enough to put the target in extremely bad spots to give a nice advantage for Marth. The knockback of Marth's Side-B sequence did a similar thing.

If you have to use Up+B for its instant combo breaking properties, it doesn't need to kill, too.

 

[GHNeko]

Marth's up B isnt a combo breaker, its a string breaker. If he can up B you, that means he's out of hitstun and you're being too aggressive against marth.That and he doesn't even half to use up B against you and he can use other options. (Lolfair) It's like fighting against a luigi and getting nair'd. You know that if you got nair'd by luigi, you were either not quick enough or your being too aggressive at the wrong time.

The up B can be teched on reaction guys. What is that? That's not right. There is nothing wrong with giving Marth a reliable kill move that kills at proportionately high percents based on weight classes. You know, the percents for each class that start making you wonder why you havn't kill your opponent yet.

It was over-nerfed, it was never inteneded to be this weak. Ever.

Hell, Its Up B OOS option is nerfed due to shield stun. :/

 

[_Yes!_]

His upb sucks. Ryoko we talked about it in the Brawl+ ideas by Yes! thread...

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I looked at that discussion and sort of found it baffling.

It matters not to differentiate between strings and combos if there's nothing you can respond quickly enough with out of hitstun anyway. Marth's Up+B is the only move he has which does something important on frame 1 that comes close to frame 1.

If it's actually punishable on a sure hit, then it probably needs more BKB because I can see that being silly. I can't agree with a 1 frame counterattack as fast as that though, being able to kill at "reasonable percents." It just does not need to do all that for something you use when you're already under pressure despite Marth's ability to zone.

 

[GHNeko]

Well, we are trying to give it more BKB you know. :V

 

[goodoldganon]

Marth doesn't need help and he doesn't need his up-b to kill. Things change and Marth was too good before (and possibly now) with a killing Up-b. Buck up and learn the new game if you character was decided to be too good.

THAT BEING SAID, we overnerfed Up-b and here is my proposal for the move.

Take a card from Roy and give the initial hit a high base and 0 growth. Make it send people out at a more horizontal angle. 50-55ish sounds good. This change would make Dolphin Slash, like Blazer, a very very situational kill move (usually it only kills if the opponent was doing something stupid) but give it back the moves original function we accidentally took away from it, a string breaker and space maker.

Marth will still punish people who are overly aggressive and he will still be able to throw someone off of him if they are attacking his shield, but he won't be able to rely on it as a killer. Thoughts?

EDIT: Also, return the damage to 13.

 

[VietGeek]

That sounds reasonable GoG, but at that kind of angle, won't people still be able to tech it on reaction?

 

[teh_spamerer]

Marth doesn't need help and he doesn't need his up-b to kill.

Yes he does. He has weak combos, weak damage, unsafe kill moves, and a mediocre recovery.

Things change and Marth was too good before

He was still waaaaaaay worse than he was in Melee and in Melee he wasn't the best character. SOME characters are inevitably going to be better than others. But now he's mediocre at best.

(and possibly now) with a killing Up-b.

Oh no, he might have one kill move that he can use! How unfair!

Buck up and learn the new game if you character was decided to be too good.

Better idea: quit the ultra mediocre character and pick someone better.

 

[_Yes!_]

A more diplomatic answer lol:

Note that I don't main or ever wish to use Marth in tournament. I'm being impartial here.

Marth has no kill moves other than the tipper or gimping. Gimping would mean he has to put himself in danger by being offstage. Being offstage would mean he'd have to use his horrible recovery and risk suicide/death.

Up-b the way it is now isn't even worth using since fairing or airdodging would be safer if it's messed up. If you miss an UpB, you're more susceptible to being combo'd/killed than if you just airdodge or fair or do whatever what want since you're not in hitstun anymore.

IMO Up-b is useless to Marth as of now.

 

[leafgreen386]

Marth may not be as good as his melee self when put in direct comparison, but then again, no character in brawl+ is as good as the melee top tiers were. The best characters in brawl+ would probably only be high or mid in melee, since the top just had so much more power than what you see in brawl+ (or the rest of melee, for that matter). I don't really see how you can get away with calling marth a mediocre character within brawl+, when he has traits that are just plain good. Even if he doesn't have great combos, his zoning game can shut characters down, and his upB (once it gets fixed) means that a player has to just give up on strings that are almost combos, returning the situation back to neutral. He's got speed and range, both of which are great for punishing, and while his combos may not be fox level, they certainly get the job done. And his gimping may not be melee marth level, but he's still one of the better gimpers in brawl+. And if he needs to, he can still outright kill a foe from on the stage if he gets them up to a high percent. Sure, his recovery isn't great, but I really fail to see how all this makes a mediocre character.

Marth doesn't need help and he doesn't need his up-b to kill. Things change and Marth was too good before (and possibly now) with a killing Up-b. Buck up and learn the new game if you character was decided to be too good.

THAT BEING SAID, we overnerfed Up-b and here is my proposal for the move.

Take a card from Roy and give the initial hit a high base and 0 growth. Make it send people out at a more horizontal angle. 50-55ish sounds good. This change would make Dolphin Slash, like Blazer, a very very situational kill move (usually it only kills if the opponent was doing something stupid) but give it back the moves original function we accidentally took away from it, a string breaker and space maker.

Marth will still punish people who are overly aggressive and he will still be able to throw someone off of him if they are attacking his shield, but he won't be able to rely on it as a killer. Thoughts?

EDIT: Also, return the damage to 13.

I think this is the best solution you could take. It makes the move clearly good for getting the foe off of you, but without the ridiculous ability to kill as well.

 

[Shell]

The purpose of the rough internal tier list was to make sure that we're all on the same page for balancing purposes. Marth was ranked second nearly unanimously.

Obviously there's a large disconnect between the feelings of most of the members here and yours, teh_spamerer, and I realize you didn't have the chance to vote or share your feelings at the time.

Perhaps you could elaborate on your feelings regarding Marth and convince us a bit better that he is anything less than excellent.

 

[Magus420]

The purpose of the rough internal tier list was to make sure that we're all on the same page for balancing purposes. Marth was ranked second nearly unanimously.

To be more clear, almost unanimously as being within the top 10 characters, not as the actual 2nd best.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Marth may not be as good as his melee self when put in direct comparison, but then again, no character in brawl+ is as good as the melee top tiers were. The best characters in brawl+ would probably only be high or mid in melee, since the top just had so much more power than what you see in brawl+ (or the rest of melee, for that matter).

I made the comparison because his moves are way worse in the way they behave.

I don't really see how you can get away with calling marth a mediocre character within brawl+, when he has traits that are just plain good. Even if he doesn't have great combos, his zoning game can shut characters down

He has the same zoning tools he had in vBrawl. His combos are slightly better. Up b and down b are a lot weaker. There are a number of characters who were hard for him to zone in vBrawl. Off the top of my head: Meta Knight, Snake, Dedede, Donkey Kong, ROB, Wolf, and Wario. All of those characters except for Wario have a lot of range on fast moves and Wario is hard to zone because he moves around fast in the air. Now his zoning was still solid in vBrawl because no one really got much off of hitting you. In B+ though, you take a hell of a lot of damage for getting hit. Most of those hard to zone characters combo a lot harder than they used to, making it more difficult for Marth.

There are a lot of characters because of the changes in B+ that are hard to zone. Fox is a lot faster and has safer moves now. Squirtle doesn't get tired anymore and has some **** combos. Ike outranges him, can safely hit his shield now, has an up b that can no longer be reliably countered, and kills at significantly lower percents than Marth does.

and his upB (once it gets fixed) means that a player has to just give up on strings that are almost combos, returning the situation back to neutral.

No, they don't have to give up. It turns into a guessing game. If up b is baited then Marth gets ***** up the ***. If up b isn't baited then the situation returns to neutral for the other person taking a minimal amount of damage. If Marth is worried that up b is going to be baited and he doesn't press it but it's not baited then he gets hit by the almost combo. That is pretty bad risk:reward.

He's got speed and range, both of which are great for punishing, and while his combos may not be fox level, they certainly get the job done.

No, his combos certainly don't get the job done. He has no way to reliably combo into a kill move and his combos are weak.

And his gimping may not be melee marth level, but he's still one of the better gimpers in brawl+.

He isn't that great at gimping though. There are far too many recoveries that are impossible/close to impossible for him to gimp in B+ for it to be considered something he's good at.

And if he needs to, he can still outright kill a foe from on the stage if he gets them up to a high percent. Sure, his recovery isn't great, but I really fail to see how all this makes a mediocre character

He has to get them up to pretty absurdly high percents and he doesn't get to combo into a kill move. Most characters don't have to wait until extremely high percents and get to combo into a kill move.

EDIT: His zoning is still fairly good but the problem is he isn't rewarded as much for hitting other characters. It kinda sucks balls that you have to hit everyone way more than they have to hit you to win.

 

[Shell]

@Magus: Well, during the discussion when we actually made a rank on IRC it was pretty well agreed that he was second.

With that said, the exact order isn't completely relevant to what I'm trying to point out: there's a significant divide between "ultra mediocre character" worth quitting and among the best in the game.

What are your thoughts, Magus?

 

[VietGeek]

Marth:

I think we're really close to finishing up Marth. Last thing to do imo:

- Is to match Fsmash hitboxes to animation.
- Try to see if hitlag changes can nerf the spamming potency of DB.
- Decide whether Dash Attack or Bthrow should stay the in the pile of worst moves in the game.

DS: Hitbox B set to X offset 0 from 3. Should we make the Sakurai 20 angle to true 40 degrees?
- [1.03x Size; 13->14 Dmg; 69->68 KBG; 70->69 BKB; (40)°]

Fsmash: Tip (19 dmg) increased 1.1x
-makes it so hitbox trails with animation (doesn't seem to fix problem quite yet)

Utilt: Hitbox A increased to 6.4 from 5, moved to x-offset 2 from 1.1
-should fix problem about beginning hitbox not matching animation

Uair: Growth readjusted from modded 70 to 73

Bthrow: Trying to copy Brawl Dthrow...or something. Didn't really try too hard to document the settings. It might be reverted simply because Bthrow can't stop sucking.

IASA 34 from 44
Trajectory: 120
KBG: 3E
BKB: 42

Dthrow: angle 150 from 135

Trying to get Melee Dthrow. -_-

Uthrow: added IASA at frame 32.

KBG: 80 from 120
BKB: 60

Remove these frame speed changes next release
- universal throw speed-up removed (1114003C 40000000)
- Dancing Blade hit 1 25% slowdown removed (11000113 3F400000)

FitMarth.pac

Err try it and **** before we release it rofl.

 

[GHNeko]

What? The way he is atm is too heavy. After playing with marth all day, I agree that he can be made floatier. If anything, take DS's suggestion into account. :/

 

[VietGeek]

Be quiet Neko, I c/p'd that from a while ago. ;_;

Focus on the hitbox modifications, we'll fix his physics at some other time when we feel like it that time of month to sex it up.

...

=V

 

[Shell]

After watching CK's matches against Thunderhorse, I'm not really sure he needs any more buffs unless accompanied by more significant nerfs. Of course, I yield in my opinion to someone with superior matchup experience with the new Marf, but that's just the way it seems to me.

I'd rather avoid buffing him straight back to the top. I'd say take it slow, fix gravity and major contention points from the previous set, and simmer for another week. Meh.

 

[GHNeko]

...Back to the top?

Hasnt he always been AT the top? You speak as if he's moved down.

 

[VietGeek]

Brawl+ Marth Physics Test 1

Testing: 11AA71D0

Link (based off Cape GSH1): http://www.mediafire.com/?jodmmhmwa5y

I'll let you form your own opinions. Hate, like, what?

This is something I worked on yesterday with Leaf's guidance. Leaf feels it's pretty **** sexy. Reducing Dgrav and proportionally adding it back to Fgrav gives more Ugrav while maintaining relatively the same gravity (no recovery nerfs).

I think some physics could use revising and go in this sort of direction. Leaf noticed Wolf always felt very natural, and concluded it had something to do with having more Ugrav than Dgrav (compared to other characters). Some minor number-crunching and jump height compensation and "I can't believe it's not Melee" Marth was born.

In fact it feels very similar to Melee Marth.

Something to consider for Melee 2.0?

Comment, test, not in that order. But yeah, I think this will solve any user complaints with Marth while maintaining general playstyle. Something to push for.

Cape if we're releasing another nightly, could you include these physic changes in? ^_^