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Marth Mentality: A Brief Analysis of Marth's Psychological Game

feardragon64

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Marth Mentality
A Brief Analysis of Marth’s Psychological Game

Marth is a fictional character in the Fire Emblem series. He’s a guy. Yes, in fact he is a guy. But that’s not what I’m here to discuss. What I aim to talk about is who the player him or herself is. The person actually controlling Marth, and the psychology behind a safe Marth player. Note that I am not here to dispense wisdom concerning actual Marth tactics, nor am I here to elaborate on the mechanics of Marth’s character. This is solely a discussion on the analysis of the mental logic for a safe Marth player. Also, this is going to attempt to address to a wide audience of people(from noobs to not as noob but still noob) and dispel myths about how to play Marth. I'm not commanding you to play as I've suggested. I'm suggesting to you what myself, and what I believe the Marth boards thinks is an incredibly effective way to play Marth.

Firstly, it has been well established that defensive fighting in Brawl works. It just does and it’s an undisputable fact. Unfortunately, lesser informed(for lack of a better word) members of the community believe that Marth is incapable of being defensive because he lacks a ranged projectile of some sort. Allow me to correct this.

You’re wrong.

How’s that? Marth is used best as a defensive fighter. Defensive in the sense that he plays it safe. What do I mean by safe? The first priority is not taking unnecessary damage. The second priority is dealing damage. The BEST way to do this, obviously, is to be able to attack the enemy while not being able to be attacked. So how does someone with no projectiles accomplish this?

Oh ya, he has a sword.

Marth’s version of camping results from his ability to fight with RANGED MELEE COMBAT. Basically, think of it like this. You’re getting into a fight with a guy that has a 20 foot pole. You have to figure out how the hell to cover a good 19 feet distance where he can hit you, but you can’t hit him(assuming you can hit the guy about a foot away). That means he is 100% safe those 19 feet, while at the same time he can hit you. This concept probably sounds familiar to you. It’s also commonly referred to as spacing.

The crux of the psychology of a safe Marth revolves around perfectly spacing and general efficiency. Following Isai’s famous quote, “Don’t get hit.” Good Marth players seek to stay within the perfect range where Marth can attack the opponent but the opponent cannot attack Marth. Because of this, Marth utilizes what is known as poking tools to attack from a safe distance. Emblem Lord clearly explains this in the Marth Strategies thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=164063
“"Once he gets close enough he can camp at a certain "optimal" range with SH fairs…”

Still, just having a poking tool does not suffice. Characters like R.O.B. or DDD have ftilts that outrange all of Marth’s attacks, so Marth must resort to finding an opportunity to attack based upon spacing AND timing. In other words Marth has to wait for the correct opportunity between attacks, spot dodges, etc. during which he can cover the distance(similar to the 20 foot pole example, only you’re attacking with a 15 foot pole now so there’s much less distance to cover). Luckily, Marth has a great run speed AND good aerial maneuverability. An obvious example of this would be DDD’s fsmash. Ike has a rather slow forward smash with lots of lag afterwards. Still, this move outranges Marth’s moves. The proper way a safe Marth(or any other character for that matter) should deal with this is either wait at the edge of the attack as close as you can get to the hitbox without actually touching it, and the moment the hitbox disappears(i.e. DDD drops the hammer), Marth dashes in and attacks the moment he can with the attack that deals the most damage but is still a guaranteed hit and leaves Marth safe.

Efficiency. Sounds hard to implement though right? It is. Marth is one of those “great on paper” characters who when you actually take to a battle, things don’t really come together as well as you’d hope. That’s because Marth has a very steep learning curve. When you pick up Marth, you will make mistakes constantly. There are only a handful of good Marth’s who are actually really skilled and play smart. Understand it, accept it, and work to be one of those Marth’s.

On this note, I’d like to add that you should realize that the Marth community is considered highly elitist. Why? It stems from the way that we deal with scrubs, i.e. people who complain about what is wrong with Marth with no attempts to fix it, people who post stupid questions and fail to understand the Marth is about playing not just smart, but logically. Almost everyone(though it rarely appears this way) has logic. If you want to be a good Marth player, think logically and perfect your skill. Again, as Emblem Lord so aptly puts it: ”Post garbage like that and prepare to be verbally abused.”

Anyways, enough of that. Moving on to the next section about Marth’s “meta-game.” That is brickwalls(so called by EL). A brickwall is the metaphorical manifestation of a literal “brick wall,” something you can’t seemingly get around. Marth’s spacing is his first and primary brickwall. When Marth constantly maintains a properly spaced distanced, a feeling of hopelessness is usually generated by the opponent. After all, how can they win if they can’t hit you? Good question, ask yourself that before your next match. Marth’s other brickwall is his ability to punish mistakes. Marth has a good move-set in that his moves range from a variety of purposes. Generally, dancing blades is the default punisher because it racks up damage. Shieldbreaker is another punisher, but a punisher for over-shielding. Obviously, this move results in a shield break which is often viewed as an instant stock at decent %’s. Dancing blades is also a punisher for spot dodgers because the moves can be chained together and timed so that spot dodgers will get hit in the frames during which they are vulnerable. Dolphin Slash, which has invincibility on frames 1-5 is another amazing punisher which(when used for defensive purposes), can even interrupt attacks and occasionally steal a stock. Counter is another punisher that punishes the opponent for being predictable. Obviously, Marth has a plethora of brickwalls to choose from.

Marth’s brickwalls serve the purpose of logically defeating an opponent. Making them question themselves, how can I win if I can’t hit him, or getting them to second-guess themselves about doing what could be their only viable defense against an attack(such as dancing blade conditions spot dodgers not to spot dodge a shieldbreaker or how a shielder can be conditioned not to shield and grab a short hopped fair). But if you want to accomplish all of this against a skilled player, a lot of patience has to be put in to bring EVERYTHING together.

I hope you understand after reading this why there are not many good Marth players. Many simply spam fsmash, a move that cannot reliably kill opponents due to start up and ending lag and the need to tip the attack. Others will resort to what is known as Melee Marth and simple spam SHFF(short hop double fair) approaching and not realizing how vulnerable they are during this tactic to a shield grab. Thus, a calm Marth has to make use of his poking tools like dtilt, his damage builders like retreating fairs and dancing blade(not used in the air), and his reliable kill moves(lol what reliable kill moves) like the final hit of dancing blades forward, a tippered fsmash, or dolphin slash, as well as his entire brickwall strategy. There’s a good reason why Marth has only 3 “bad” match-ups against god tier mk(20 point difference), top tier snake(10 point difference), and DDD(10 point difference). The rest of his match-ups are either his advantage or even. Marth doesn’t destroy anyone(mostly because he doesn’t depend on gimmicks like a chain grab), nor does he really get destroyed by anyone. If you play it safe, you can go really far with Marth.

tl;dr version:
1) Play safe.
2) Play smart.
3) Post smart.

10tipperedMarths
 

Remzi

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Good read feardragon, felt like i was reading one of EL's articles...

almost xD

but seriously it should be helpful to those who don't have as much experience with the character. and a reminder to those of us who have been here for a while.
 

grandmaster192

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I don't wanna play all defence.... I wanna attack and do some really nice looking stuff like Roy_R does and be fast like NEO does.

Playing Marth the camping way is boring and lame. Seriously, if it comes down to that, I'll just not play and wait for SF4, a game I know will be good because Capcom is amazing.

For me it's either fast Marth or no Marth at all.
 

VietGeek

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For those with the misfortune to often take guides like this quite literally...remember this is Brawl.

Isai famous words: "Don't get hit" applied to two Smash games where punishment could well mean 0-death, or a large damage intake (64 and Melee respectively). In Brawl, punishment usually is roughly 1-2 moves, with some of attempt to ledgeguard, and rack up damage for a kill move.

That being said, playing safe is still the goal, however, as a player, you must learn when it is to make instantaneous judgment calls on how to react. To assess the risk-reward ratio and see what is worth doing and what is not. Atempting to play extremely safe doesn't cut it unless you are versed with a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience of fighting theory.

Learn when to take risk and capitalize on mistakes, but learn when to back off. To play completely safe cannot cut it as you are simply human, and prone to mistakes. But so is your opponent. That is what any game with some sort of competition is all about.
 

Remzi

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Playing defensive is the general mindset required to play marth effectively. It by no means has to dictate every movement you make. Also:

fast =/= offensive
slow =/= defensive

My Marth moves and attacks quickly, yet I play with a defensive mindset. Even playing aggro but still zoning works sometimes.
 

VietGeek

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Playing defensive is the general mindset required to play marth effectively. It by no means has to dictate every movement you make. Also:

fast =/= offensive
slow =/= defensive

My Marth moves and attacks quickly, yet I play with a defensive mindset. Even playing aggro but still zoning works sometimes.
People like you who can summarize my wall of text into 4 sentences piss me off so...

._.

j/k

Not really. <_<

We can still be friends imirite?
 

Remzi

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i wasnt summarizing, just replyiing to grandmaster.
 

ZHMT

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Playing defensive is the general mindset required to play marth effectively. It by no means has to dictate every movement you make. Also:

fast =/= offensive
slow =/= defensive

My Marth moves and attacks quickly, yet I play with a defensive mindset. Even playing aggro but still zoning works sometimes.
Exactly...

By setting up Walls and staying on the defensive, it will be more of a suprise when you actually attack. My Marth is a hit and defend Marth, and its fun and effective. You wont be getting hit often if you space correctly, and you can sneak in a dancing blade or grab when you find the time is right. I mix more defense in then offense, but yeah, everyone has their own style.

Really nice Post Feardragon, I see you have a lot of similar attributes with my Marth. Defend, wait for openings, strike, retreat, repeat.
 

grandmaster192

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and why can't Marth be played offensively at a high level? He has all the tools needed to do so...

Playing him definsively is only the lazy and easy way to play him. I think he can be played just as good with offence, it's just more work, but it's worth it.
 

Steel

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I don't wanna play all defence.... I wanna attack and do some really nice looking stuff like Roy_R does and be fast like NEO does.

Playing Marth the camping way is boring and lame. Seriously, if it comes down to that, I'll just not play and wait for SF4, a game I know will be good because Capcom is amazing.

For me it's either fast Marth or no Marth at all.
NEO has an aggressive Marth. Did you know you can be aggressive AND safe?
 

Remzi

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IMO playing Marth defensive is harder to master, and more rewarding. If you play an offensive marth effectively, then continue to do so and dont let anyone tell you otherwise. Most experienced Marths (including myself) just feel that a defensive marth is more effective.
 

grandmaster192

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NEO has an aggressive Marth. Did you know you can be aggressive AND safe?
Yes, and that's exactly what I'm trying to say. Marth can be played at a high level just fine without having to be all campy and lame. The most effective way IS NOT camp and play defence when the best Marth on Earth is an aggressive one.

Marth has a lot tools, and he has the tools needed to play aggrsseively at a high level unlike what this says.

In all honestly, most good Marth's that do place well play nothing like what this forum says you should.

Marth can play aggressively and campy because he's that good.
 

Steel

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Yes, and that's exactly what I'm trying to say. Marth can be played at a high level just fine without having to be all campy and lame. The most effective way IS NOT camp and play defence when the best Marth on Earth is an aggressive one.

Marth has a lot tools, and he has the tools needed to play aggrsseively at a high level unlike what this says.

In all honestly, most good Marth's that do place well play nothing like what this forum says you should.

Marth can play aggressively and campy because he's that good.
But even when you are aggressive you are basically being a camping ghey because you have a sword.

Like I said when I critiqued your Marth, you have to keep your sword in front of you. Be it you are aggressive or defensive, it doesn't matter.

If you are aggressive AND safe you can limit your opponent's options more effectively than if you were mostly on the defensive. This is fact.
 

feardragon64

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AS bengals put it, aggressive =/= fast, and defensive =/= slow. Don't mix them up. I don't think I put it that way in my post.

Similarly(sorta) safe =/= defensive. It's just the easiest way to be safe.

You CAN be aggressive AND safe(mk and yes NEO), but it's much more difficult. Also, against particular opponents, it's even more difficult since Marth has no safe way to approach and CAN'T safely be aggressive...

....again....mk....

And lol this hardly represents my Marth. It represents what I'm striving for, far from what my Marth actually is.

To address what viet said, the point is to minimize mistakes(obviously), but also to minimize the damage made by the mistakes by playing safe. If you attack the opponent with a retreating fair, the point of it being retreating is so that even if it's shielded, the opponent can't punish you for it. Yes, you're human, but that doesn't mean you don't have the capabilities to minimize the punishment dealt for your mistakes. Thanks for touching upon that viet. =]

Thanks to everyone for complements. Critiques on what I should fix would be appreciated to.
 

Pr0phetic

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Good stuff to read fear, it was nice too see this accessed.

I personally also like the fast style, while still not rushing blindly into unnecessary attacks and traps. All mindgames guys, all mindgames... (jokes) But still, follow what was sum'd up.
 

Nibbity

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When you say aggressive and safe, do you mean putting more pressure with stronger attacks? Forcing out smashes can change the way your opponent plays, gets things on your terms if you wanna switch it up I guess.
 

Steel

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When you say aggressive and safe, do you mean putting more pressure with stronger attacks? Forcing out smashes can change the way your opponent plays, gets things on your terms if you wanna switch it up I guess.
Uh, how are smashes safe?

That's not what I mean at all.
 

Pierce7d

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Wow, this was a really good read actually, and while my style somewhat differs from NEOs, I play an aggressive safe (unless I'm fighting MK, because Marth has plenty of options vs Tornado, but you need to be playing defensive to use them.)

Good stuffs guys
 

Steel

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lol, exactly. I mean to say I don't exactly understand what you mean when you say aggressive and safe.
Staying at tipper range and abusing the fact that you have a sword so it is hard to hit you.... while being aggressive. In a nutshell, anyway.
 

Nibbity

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Staying at tipper range and abusing the fact that you have a sword so it is hard to hit you.... while being aggressive. In a nutshell, anyway.
Alright, my bad, maybe I should have understood that, I don't think I play aggressive at all.
 

Emblem Lord

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Sounds like you want to make excuses as to why it's ok for you to suck grandmaster.

The guides on the Marth boards are just that. Guidelines. No one is saying you have to play a certain way in terms of style. Yes there are certian things you should be doing to be successful like up b out of shield to punish, but after stuff like that it's just all up to your style and preference.

But there has to be a game plan to your movements. When I watched Roy_R play, he did things that I didn't like, BUT...I could FEEL his rhythm and his movement.

Maybe you can't which is an indicator of your skill level, but when I watched him and you the difference is clear. He is not blindly attacking. He is deliberately putting his sword where it needs to be to keep Azen at bay. Now I think he had better ways to do this then full hops all day, but he still knew how to play. Which is more then I can say for you.

There is no rhyme or reason behind your movements.

Battle is like a dance. It's an art form. So to watch someone with no sense of the flow of battle is like watching a terrible dancer wing it on the dance floor. It looks ugly and it feels ugly.

You wanna attack and aggro all day? That's fine. But recognize that it takes skill, very precise spacing and you have to be able to play super safe. You need to be perfect and I think it's much harder to play an aggro Marth and do well. You also need to fully master Marth's frame traps.

So, hey..do what works for you. But don't say the Marth boards is wrong because I just won't hear of it. The Marth boards has the respect and admiration of every single character board and for good reason. I'll not have you slander that knowledge and reputation just because your Marth is garbage.
 

feardragon64

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(11:44:23 PM) JunkInTheTrunk: oh wait
(11:44:28 PM) JunkInTheTrunk: that wasn't a recent thread?
(11:44:30 PM) JunkInTheTrunk: i responded to it
(11:44:35 PM) feardragon: oh crap
(11:44:44 PM) feardragon: you bumped my shame

Don't look at it! It's hideous!
 

legion598

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I think its best to go on the offensive after uve broken your opponents spirit with constant brick walls, at this point they are bound to be sloppy on their defense and u can just juggle them to death.

edit: thought this was new
 

Sake-Hato

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Good Read,
this is the kind of stuff that would turn a scrub into a advanced player if they apply this the right way
 
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