Marth Matchup thread.

[Chesstiger2612]

Plus Zards aerials are more viable for the spacing war than DK's and Marth can even have issues of beng outspaced.

 

[DMG]

Neither DK nor Zard really needs to space aerials though. It's probably easier with DK as well, since Bair is so swift and you don't have to "line it up" as much as Zard Bair + Nair. They are troublesome for Marth for other reasons: heavy + fast dudes that hold down force you to play very solid and near passive. You can't afford to get touched or grabbed as many times as they can, they have comparable grab ranges + attack ranges + dash speeds, oh and they eat up Marth's weight/size for combos.

 

[menotyou135]

Zard can outspace marth to a decent degree. Ftilt, Nair, Fsmash, Glide attack, and jab can all reliably hit marth, and if Zard gets under marth, he can destroy marth with Usmash, jab, Uair, Nair, Utilt, and up B. A marth has to be super cautious not to slip up because Zard can punish him pretty hard.

 

[shairn]

Zard definitely doesn't kill Marth as easily as DK, from my experience. His grab range is also shorter than Marth's AFAIK. I've never had as much trouble fighting Zard as I have had fighting DK, but that might just be the players' levels.

@ DMG Thanks, I played the DK again today and won the set. Ended up taking 4th. Now I need to get used to Lucas it seems.

 

[DMG]

Actually, I'm fairly positive Zard outranges Marth. Either Zard or D3 has the longest non-tether grab range iirc: Marth is lower than both of them from what I can remember. Even if Marth somehow edged them out, their ranges are highly comparable (characters with obviously amazing grab ranges, instead of them being like Sonic or something miniscule) and the dash speed on DK/Zard means you better be damn confident if you think you can outgrab them 100%

 

[shairn]

From the statistics thread, Marth's standing grab outranges Charizard's but his pivot/dash grab doesn't. Longest grab is D3.

 

[DMG]

Ah so it's D3. Guess that makes sense, he was the longest non tether in Brawl.

 

[Heero Yuy]

How do you guys handle Link? I figured that since Link is awful under pressure that Marths should play aggressively and go for grabs as much as possible to start combos. However, haven't faced a solid Link with my Marth yet so I'm just curious if I'm right or wrong.

 

[menotyou135]

How do you guys handle Link? I figured that since Link is awful under pressure that Marths should play aggressively and go for grabs as much as possible to start combos. However, haven't faced a solid Link with my Marth yet so I'm just curious if I'm right or wrong.

I'm going to be real with you here. You have to read the link player like a book. Take them to a stage with platforms (it is easier to get past his projectiles when you can approach from multiple heights.

Get him above you (that means use Up throw unless you can throw him off the map). He has basically 4 options when he is above you. Come down with a Dair, land on the top platform, come down to the edge and try to use the ledge to get back, come down with some other attack. For the first one, simply dodge the attack and punish. The Dair has enough lag that even an L-canceled one can be punished. For the top plat one (if the stage has a top plat) Full hop Uair can hit him 70% of the time if you time it well. For the edge option, Marth has a lot of edgeguarding tools to deal with link. For the last option, your Uair and Utilt have priority over every option he has and they hit through platforms.

In order to get past the projectile wall, you have to read when he will use them. All 3 require different responses so you have to deal with them on reaction or read. Boomerang can be swatted by Fair/Ftilt. Arrow usually has to be jumped over, dodged, or shielded. Bombs require you to not get your ass blown up, but are predictable to get around since he has to pull them out.

Spin attack will always come on the edge barring some off stage edgeguard. You have to sweetspot the edge or recover over link. Do not under any circumstances recover on stage. You will die. If you can shield the start of the spin attack, you actually do not have to keep shielding. You can attack him out of the attack.

If they are trying to zone you out with his jab combo, DI/SDI until you are just out of range and Fsmash. Unless he stops the second he sees you starting to DI, you can get the fsmash in before he can get out of the attack and it is a guaranteed tipper.

When you are above link, you are combo food. His Up smash and uptilt beat out all of your moves on priority (I believe) and if counter works against them, I have never gotten it to work. He can juggle you forever with Uair if he does it right. Because of this, you have to land away from link (usually on to a platform). If you can't land on a platform, usually that means that a boomerang/bomb will be waiting for you the second you land so either shield or do something like that.

Once you get enough damage on link, you can combo Fairs into more fairs and carry him across the screen that way into an easy ken combo. It is easy to edgeguard link if you read his options. You can counter or fair the spin recovery and you can jump out and fair him off stage/edge drop bair him to avoid the chain recovery.

Basically, just play exactly like ken and you will be fine. Stay on him with Fair pressure, a few nairs, Fsmash tippers, dtilts, sword dances, and throws. He wants to be outside your sword range so if you can stay close to him, he has virtually no options. The only time he should get far away from you is when you hit him super hard.

 

[SSBM_Sora]

I'm going to be real with you here. You have to read the link player like a book. Take them to a stage with platforms (it is easier to get past his projectiles when you can approach from multiple heights.

Get him above you (that means use Up throw unless you can throw him off the map). He has basically 4 options when he is above you. Come down with a Dair, land on the top platform, come down to the edge and try to use the ledge to get back, come down with some other attack. For the first one, simply dodge the attack and punish. The Dair has enough lag that even an L-canceled one can be punished. For the top plat one (if the stage has a top plat) Full hop Uair can hit him 70% of the time if you time it well. For the edge option, Marth has a lot of edgeguarding tools to deal with link. For the last option, your Uair and Utilt have priority over every option he has and they hit through platforms.

In order to get past the projectile wall, you have to read when he will use them. All 3 require different responses so you have to deal with them on reaction or read. Boomerang can be swatted by Fair/Ftilt. Arrow usually has to be jumped over, dodged, or shielded. Bombs require you to not get your *** blown up, but are predictable to get around since he has to pull them out.

Spin attack will always come on the edge barring some off stage edgeguard. You have to sweetspot the edge or recover over link. Do not under any circumstances recover on stage. You will die. If you can shield the start of the spin attack, you actually do not have to keep shielding. You can attack him out of the attack.

If they are trying to zone you out with his jab combo, DI/SDI until you are just out of range and Fsmash. Unless he stops the second he sees you starting to DI, you can get the fsmash in before he can get out of the attack and it is a guaranteed tipper.

When you are above link, you are combo food. His Up smash and uptilt beat out all of your moves on priority (I believe) and if counter works against them, I have never gotten it to work. He can juggle you forever with Uair if he does it right. Because of this, you have to land away from link (usually on to a platform). If you can't land on a platform, usually that means that a boomerang/bomb will be waiting for you the second you land so either shield or do something like that.

Once you get enough damage on link, you can combo Fairs into more fairs and carry him across the screen that way into an easy ken combo. It is easy to edgeguard link if you read his options. You can counter or fair the spin recovery and you can jump out and fair him off stage/edge drop bair him to avoid the chain recovery.

Basically, just play exactly like ken and you will be fine. Stay on him with Fair pressure, a few nairs, Fsmash tippers, dtilts, sword dances, and throws. He wants to be outside your sword range so if you can stay close to him, he has virtually no options. The only time he should get far away from you is when you hit him super hard.

I hate this match up more than the mewtwo match up!

 

[Kaoak]

I'd like to add that when it comes to the Marth Link MU, Marth's tech chases are important, and nair is an incredibly useful tool for punishing, due to having so many active frames.

The problem that mid-level Marths have with the Link MU is just the fact that it's hard to find a strategy that works. For the most part Link will win neutral due to his plethora of projectiles and sizable melee range, and as a result the only place Marth can be that is favorable for him is just outside Link's Melee range, simply because Marth is far more mobile than Link is and Link has few options that out-range and out prioritize Marth once you get close, but not too close. Overall in that MU the Marth has to be very patient, because to win the neutral against Link you have to be focused and know your spacing. Don't let Link get back into the neutral and if you do, be patient and don't try to go for the "no breathing room approach", because Link has far more options up close and personal than Marth does (namely Up B oos).

I personally have a lot of trouble with the Zelda MU, and would like to know what my best tools for approaching are. A big problem I have is that at early %s, Zelda leaves fair hitstun and can Nairu's before I'm out of my fair's ending lag (unless I get the tip), however if I hit the tip of the fair, because Zelda is so light she flies too high for me to combo. Zelda's punish game is brutal and the fact that lightning kick has about the same spacing as a tipper fair does not help. Any pointers on the matchup? It's certainly not fun.

 

[Player -0]

Don't play the Zelda MU as you would the CF matchup where you can combo the peanuts out of them.

Play a "campy" Neutral which consists D-Tilt and dash dancing. Try not to jump into the air unless pressuring her from below with Up Air or comboing with Fair. You can also run up shield because of her slow grab speed, they'll often retreat with Fair/Bair or do Nayru's or something.

Play close enough so she can't hit you but she can't set up Din's. Once you get below her Up-Air for days, doesn't matter about comboing. When she's using Farore's Wind, the screen will stretch or get smaller depending on where she goes most of the time, you can use this to your advantage if she's recovering. She shouldn't be able to teledash because you'll be able to punish the startlag of the move.

 

[TreK]

Hi Marth doods, I need a secondary, I've got two top level Marths in my region and my main Ivysaur is like 3-7 on him if I'm being generous. What are Marth's bad matchup outside of characters which are going to be nerfed in the next 6ish months ? :V

 

[DMG]

???

Ivysaur should be fine vs Marth. Arguably even MU or slightly Ivy's favor. 3-7 losing as Ivy should mean you're getting pooped on harder than needed, I recommend 200x more dtilt

Marth's arguably bad MU's (includes 45:55 against his favor)

Zard
Diddy
M2
MK
Any Spacie??

Even or stage dependent:

Sonic (likely wins if ur poon enough as Sanic)
Sheik
Falcon
Mario
DK
Wolf kinda?
Yoshi after buffs
Pikachu
ESAM level Samus

 

[Jacob29]

Sheik even really? huh. I see her heralded as one of his really bad MUs in Melee and really she was barely nerfed. or at least from a pal perspective she is even better.

 

[shairn]

Sheik traded guaranteed kill setups and a guaranteed cg at certain percents for a maybe cg and maybe kill setups, which hurts her against Marth who can still juggle her just fine. I still think it's in her favor, but it's not as significant as in Melee.

I don't see how Marth wins over Ivy either. Maybe you can try the Ivy boards and see how they deal with Marth. As a Marth main I personally don't like going on small stages against Ivy, since it makes it hard to maneuver around her large disjoints and great projectiles.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I'm genuinely baffled by the number of Ivy players that seem to think Ivy outright loses the Marth matchup.

 

[Jacob29]

Because they have played it a couple of times and been caught by the f-throw chaingrab to f-smash.

 

[Iremia]

Any advice against Samus and projectile heavy characters?

 

[DMG]

PS or jab/swat them in safe ways

 

[menotyou135]

Sheik traded guaranteed kill setups and a guaranteed cg at certain percents for a maybe cg and maybe kill setups, which hurts her against Marth who can still juggle her just fine. I still think it's in her favor, but it's not as significant as in Melee.

I don't see how Marth wins over Ivy either. Maybe you can try the Ivy boards and see how they deal with Marth. As a Marth main I personally don't like going on small stages against Ivy, since it makes it hard to maneuver around her large disjoints and great projectiles.

I feel like low level to intermediate level, sheik still poops on marth, but at the top level, the matchup is almost even.

It was kinda the same in melee where a decent sheik vs a decent marth would be like 65-70 percent in sheiks favor because her defensive options lead to great setups and required you to play better than her to get around, while top level sheik vs top level marth would be like 60 at most because good marths can get around the defensive play. In PM, you can remove somewhere between 5 and 10 percent off everything.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Sheik's dthrow nerf really hurts her as a character. Makes the matchup much, much easier for Marth.

I still get PTSD flashbacks when she downthrows in PM. Thankfully, they're stupid easy to DI and escape.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Until she catches you slipping and starts bthrowing you for free. Hence what @ menotyou135 said - the matchup is only even(ish) when you have enough awareness of her nuances to intelligently handle all of her options, and while she lost the free dthrow followups she did gain other things.

 

[Charby]

You only need one thing against Sheik : Abuse Dtilt so you can push her in a bad position then kill her. It's even on p:m tho no more dthrow to anything NTSC Bull****

 

[X0dus]

Tips Against Zero Suit Samus?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Used to be a bad matchup for Marth, now it's not. Play neutral like you would against Falcon, keep her in the air once you get a hit in, most things should be DI'd away (nearly everything that shouldn't is heavily telegraphed). If she's forced to tether to ledge you can either try to read her getup options (fade back to regrab ledge or try to land onstage), try and cover both with nair, or go for a dropzone aerial. Paralyzer is stupid easy to powershield, even for Marth.

 

[hamyojo]

What is Marth's worst matchup? I'm trying to find a co-character for my main, G&W, and since I feel Marth is my worst match-up I would like to choose a secondary character that I can pull out to **** marth in tourney.

This is a super old question, but I am pretty sure Yoshi is his worst MU. With good DI and frame 1 double jump armor in to frame 3 nair Marth simply cannot combo Yoshi. Neutral can be in Marth's favor on some stages, but not nearly enough or often enough for the difference in punish game. All of Yoshi's moves also perfectly combo Marth/send him off stage in destructive angles. It's a very unique MU and one that I don't think a good Yoshi should lose to often.

 

[Preacher]

Yoshi is a bit difficult at first but he is fairly predictable. He has a poor ground game and very bad grab, plus he's not as fast as Marth. The only thing yoshi has is the weird movements that he can do with platforms and super armor. Once those 2 things, which many yoshi mains build their game around, are exploited they lose to marth players like nothing. The real worst match up is the ditto where one grab can mean the stock for either player.

 

[hamyojo]

Yoshi is a bit difficult at first but he is fairly predictable. He has a poor ground game and very bad grab, plus he's not as fast as Marth. The only thing yoshi has is the weird movements that he can do with platforms and super armor. Once those 2 things, which many yoshi mains build their game around, are exploited they lose to marth players like nothing. The real worst match up is the ditto where one grab can mean the stock for either player.

I'm talking about at the highest level. At a, well, lower level player Marth is very good against Yoshi. At a national level that's not so true. A good Yoshi isn't nearly as predictable as you say, and his grab is far better than you think, especially his pivot grab. Yoshi throws also lead in to much more than Marth throws.

 

[Preacher]

At a national level that's not so true. A good Yoshi isn't nearly as predictable as you say.

With Yoshi's parry you have to realize that people are going to expect Yoshi players to do it. That's just the way the meta is being developed at the moment, but that could change over night (though why I couldn't say). It's like how people expect Marth players to start countering when they're in a corner, they just adapt a different pace and bait it out. When the super armor is over, Yoshi can be juggled like any other character.

In a situation where marth hits against super armor over and over again throughout the match I fully yield to the belief that that marth player had absolutely no adaptability/idea what they're doing. But, in national levels you won't see many players repeating that mistake. At the end of the day Yoshi's parry works like a moving counter, nothing that can't be avoided and exploited.

His grab is far better than you think, especially his pivot grab. Yoshi throws also lead in to much more than Marth throws.

There are several zones where yoshi's grab won't actually grab and marth can outreach yoshi's grab anyway. Factor in that it comes out a bit faster and we can see the reasons I feel he has a bad grab overall (not to insinuate that it isn't viable or isn't effective). Marth's grab is used to gain positional advantage instead of damaging follow ups anyway. The grab the results of throwing are completely different. For damage, yea, Yoshi takes the cake being able to juggle Marth almost like he's in a ditto.

A formidable match up at best, but not Marth's worse.

 

[hamyojo]

With Yoshi's parry you have to realize that people are going to expect Yoshi players to do it. That's just the way the meta is being developed at the moment, but that could change over night (though why I couldn't say). It's like how people expect Marth players to start countering when they're in a corner, they just adapt a different pace and bait it out. When the super armor is over, Yoshi can be juggled like any other character.

In a situation where marth hits against super armor over and over again throughout the match I fully yield to the belief that that marth player had absolutely no adaptability/idea what they're doing. But, in national levels you won't see many players repeating that mistake. At the end of the day Yoshi's parry works like a moving counter, nothing that can't be avoided and exploited.



There are several zones where yoshi's grab won't actually grab and marth can outreach yoshi's grab anyway. Factor in that it comes out a bit faster and we can see the reasons I feel he has a bad grab overall (not to insinuate that it isn't viable or isn't effective). Marth's grab is used to gain positional advantage instead of damaging follow ups anyway. The grab the results of throwing are completely different. For damage, yea, Yoshi takes the cake being able to juggle Marth almost like he's in a ditto.

A formidable match up at best, but not Marth's worse.

Wha? I'm not sure you know what a parry is. Yoshi's don't double jump randomly, but even if they do... The armor lasts EVERY FRAME of his double jump animation, and he has SO MUCH mobility that he can easily move out of the way of any attack with a lot of safety. Yoshi is the worst of Puff ( crazy good air control, hard to combo, can't get grabbed where others can ), and the worst of Sheik (destructive combos, all of Yoshi's moves send at INSANE killing angles vs Marth). This MU has very little redeeming values for Marth, I've deeply considered every other character and Marth just has so little dirt on Yoshi in this game. It's pretty wild.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yoshi has a good MU against Marth in my opinion, but never forget the footstool option.

 

[Dan G.]

Hey, guys. Some recent discussions about Marth's placement in the tier list motivated me to hop in on this. Specifically, every one of the players on Salt Mines yesterday sans Lunchables said Marth was top tier and one of the game's absolute best. In response, I drafted a Marth match-up chart. The categorization within the groups is in no particular order. Also a closing thought, let it be known that I do not fully agree with this list and probably never will. There are a few MUs I know very little about so that's that. Tell me what you guys think:

Extremely advantageous / 70 : 30


Very advantageous / 65 : 35


Mostly advantageous / 60 : 40


Slightly advantageous / 55 : 45


Dead even / 50 : 50


Slightly disadvantageous / 45 : 55


Mostly disadvantageous / 40 : 60


Very disadvantageous / 35 : 65


Extremely disadvantageous / 30 : 70

 

[Player -0]

That looks almost completely wrong.

Ness doesn't do that bad. I think Soft Serve said Diddy does well vs. Marth. Umbreon would say that Fox beats Marth. I'm not sure about Wolf/Marth being even, might me. Marth beats Zelda I'm pretty sure. Also Marth beats Samus by a bit. Also Marth beats Jiggz. And most of tho-

IT'S JUST WRONG

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yoshi is maybe slightly disadvantegous, not worse. Dedede is maybe very, but not extremely disadvantegous. Samus might be even or slightly better for Marth. ROB does well against Marth (probably slightly better for ROB). Diddy does better against Marth, Marth does way better against Pit, Mewtwo, Kirby, Link, Sonic, Mario.

Also, Lunchables was probably right in the Salt Mines discussion. Marth is perceived as very strong because he has a kind of gatekeeper function against a multitude of characters (Snake, Wario, Lucario, ...), however, it is not as easy if you play Marth yourself because you don't have a top tier's level of dominance against most of the cast like for example Fox or Sheik has, with >3/4 of matchups at least slightly advantageous.
I'd probably say Marth is between 5th and 10th, so being an upper high tier rather than a top tier.

 

[ObdurateMARio]

Yoshi is 50:50 IMO. Yeah, he has eggs, yeah he has armor, but if you play him smart, Marth still wins all the things that Marth usually wins. Being neutral game and edgeguards. You just have to win the neutral game over and over again, but Marth has the tools to do that over Yoshi's relatively poor range.

 

[DethM]

Thoughts on the Tink matchup? It's hard to decide and I'm not fully sure, but I think Tink wins. Very dependent on the Tink's style at the moment.

Finally posting this in the right place. Yay.

 

[Deleted member]

i firmly believe that fox beats marth in PM

i had a discussion with @Lunchables about marth vs tink when we played it in person, where i lost most of our games, and he said marth beats tink, and i said well im like the best marth and im losing so if no marth can functionally beat your tink you cant really claim that you lose the MU

lunchables also said that he thinks marth is in the top half, wheres i think marth is somewhere around the middle of the cast, although i admit that i may underrate the character because i understand his flaws particularly well, not sure yet

 

[Deleted member]

Theres no actual good marths who play PM tbh. PP n' stuff are the only real good marths that can push the character and they don't exist in pm

Also tink loses to marth because of marths superior ground game. Marth can stay at a range with dash dancing to where toon link can't really threaten marth with his usual SHFFL stuff, but he also can't pull a bomb because marth is really close by. Its a constant game of toon link trying to find room to breath, and if the marth is actually good at the game then be can deny toon link of that pleasure.

Oh and your pseudo shield pressure vs most characters is real pressure vs mine due to poor OOS options in terms of frame advantage

 

[Deleted member]

Theres no actual good marths who play PM tbh.

you wound me

you know my marth is like the exact same as PPs right >_>