Marth Matchup thread.

[Deleted member]

I'd count you if you actually ENTERED TOURNAMENTS

 

[DethM]

But Tink has far better combos on Marth, and a tether recovery. His recovery overall is just bs for a Marth to challenge.

Also; the boomerang/bombs. And uthrow.

His uthrow leads to a free uspecial at the right percents, and at very low percents it's pretty much whatever Tink wants. I think Marth wins if the Tink is playing badly, but that the Tink should win.

 

[Player -0]

Tether recoveries suck now. Marth can challenge TLink's recovery fine. TLink is coming low? ledgehop dair. TLink is coming middle kinda? React to his whatever and ledgedrop Bair. TLink is going high? LolF-Smash.

To most of your boomerang/bomb stuff I could just say that Marth has a sword. Also bombs/boomerangs didn't really make Link/YLink good in Melee.

 

[Keman]

Incase you all didn't already know, everything is heavy Marth's favor

 

[DethM]

Tether recoveries suck now. Marth can challenge TLink's recovery fine. TLink is coming low? ledgehop dair. TLink is coming middle kinda? React to his whatever and ledgedrop Bair. TLink is going high? LolF-Smash.

To most of your boomerang/bomb stuff I could just say that Marth has a sword. Also bombs/boomerangs didn't really make Link/YLink good in Melee.

No, he actually can't. Those are some pretty big blanket statements. Tink's tether is still good enough to stop Marth's edgegaurding, as is most of his other recovery options. If the Tink recovers high then he's just a free meal, though.

Uh, this is not Melee. Tink has different projectiles.

Also; they weren't necessarily good, but they had a pretty good matchup against Marth.

 

[Player -0]

TLink's projectile's are fairly similar iirc. Arrows are different I know for sure but negligible.

Tether recoveries suck pretty bad in 3.5. If TLink uses tether at all Marth can hold into the ledge and wait for the forced ledgehop -> Tipper F-Smash. Marth can also ledgedrop Nair/Fair (Nair messes with timing if they try to tech).

Marth's Bair can cover TLink's Up-B if he's recovering from the side, if TLink is covering low Marth can just edge hog then ledgehop Dair if need be.

TLink can cover ledge with a bomb throw but even so if it's mis-spaced Marth gets a free Bair. Marth can also grab it -> throw back.

Marth can pressure TLink to the point where he can't really pull out projectiles unless Marth is hit offstage or he puts himself in a bad position and then if TLink grabs a projectile while Marth is offstage then he's giving up an egdeguard opportunity.

I feel like Marth-TLink is a tad bit in Marth's favor with the power of speculation.

 

[DethM]

TLink's projectile's are fairly similar iirc. Arrows are different I know for sure but negligible.

Tether recoveries suck pretty bad in 3.5. If TLink uses tether at all Marth can hold into the ledge and wait for the forced ledgehop -> Tipper F-Smash. Marth can also ledgedrop Nair/Fair (Nair messes with timing if they try to tech).

Marth's Bair can cover TLink's Up-B if he's recovering from the side, if TLink is covering low Marth can just edge hog then ledgehop Dair if need be.

TLink can cover ledge with a bomb throw but even so if it's mis-spaced Marth gets a free Bair. Marth can also grab it -> throw back.

Marth can pressure TLink to the point where he can't really pull out projectiles unless Marth is hit offstage or he puts himself in a bad position and then if TLink grabs a projectile while Marth is offstage then he's giving up an egdeguard opportunity.

I feel like Marth-TLink is a tad bit in Marth's favor with the power of speculation.

Tink always has ledgehop fair, and his nair is both fast and covers quite a bit for him.

Some tethers really aren't all that bad, like Tink and Samus's.


His pressure on Tink is one of his best things in the matchup, but if the Tink plays intelligently enough, he should be able to give Marth quite a bit of that back and abuse his projectiles.

Marth's bair does **** up Tink's recovery, though. Unless he has a bomb already.

 

[Player -0]

Ledgehop Fair? I'm talking about the forced tether hop. You can't do anything (but awkwardly drift) during it. Tethers currently are limited to getting to the stage relatively quickly, using it from an AD offstage, or if tether is your only option (aka one of the reasons why Olimar sucks).

I know TLink's punish game is amazing, hence why I think it's almost even. Combined with TLink's fairly quick movement and stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

I wouldn't say toon link has better combos on marth, they both combo eachother pretty heavily since if toon link is above marth he can't just like... multijump away and mk dive kick or something silly. He still gets juggled, and still has neutral game issues. I've already addressed why marths neutral is great vs toon links, it doesn't matter if tink has projectiles if the marth is on top of things.

btw toon links recovery is incredibly exploitable to marth, tether recoveries suck vs him and tinks up b has significant landing lag. I'm curious as to what toon links you play vs?

 

[Player -0]

I'm talking about the nature of TLink's combos, his tend to send offstage via Up-B or Fair which then leads to an easy exploit of Marth's recovery. Even if you mess up and end the combo with an Up-Air or something then Marth is still above you.

I'd say Marth can juggle TLink well, I think TLink has an edge in the combo department though.

I assume you're talking to DethM for the last part.

 

[Deleted member]

The argument of if you mess up the combo, marth is still above you is actually the same for marth

If marth throws toonlink into the air and can't hit him again, oh look, toon link still has to land.

 

[Player -0]

The difference is that if you don't mess up with Marth you still don't have many strong sending horizontal moves. TLink has a lot more slack because he has more moves that send fairly powerfully horizontally and has more tools to set up to them. Although if you miss a grab, lol.

 

[DethM]

I suppose that I could be wrong about the recovery, I'll have to look into it some more. I still think that you're underestimating it, though.


Just a theory here, and I'm pretty sure I'm wrong-but can't Tink AGT down for some coverage when above Marth, and nair if he misses? This is just a theory.

Tink's uthrow is still ridiculous on Marth.


The main Tinks I've played against are TC1 and 2Rad. 2Rad is pretty unkown outside of our local region, though.

 

[Player -0]

Lunchables, you suck. TLink's recovery is gahlike and you don't know how to use it.


kappa

 

[DethM]

Lunchables, you suck. TLink's recovery is gahlike and you don't know how to use it.


kappa

That's not at all what I'm saying.

 

[Preacher]

Marth's grabs make you move where he wants you to move. He has decent options with where he can throw opponents. Though you wont see things like down throw to down air that can lead to a kill (looking at you angrily Mario). Notice that at "Marth percents" a forward trow is going to throw you toward or off the ledge. For a character that is best when it comes to edge guarding, this is a good thing because a good edge guard game will kill opponents no matter what their percents are. In a simple way Marth's base game can be summed up as - push them off stage and don't let them grab the ledge. The side and top blast zones need not be involved here.

Before saying who has a good or bad match up consider that if Marth controls spacing and positioning better than his opponent he is likely going to win. A character that can control space and position better than Marth is going to have the advantage. Who cares if DK can kill marth at 60% with a punch, Marth can gimp donkey any time he's off the stage. It doesn't matter if yoshi has power armor, throw him off the ledge until he exhausts himself. Tired of being slapped by Sheik? Grab her and toss her like a rag doll over and over again until you can edge guard her. Combos are very helpful, but fundamentals are what makes Marth succeed.

 

[Player -0]

I don't see how that's relevant but sure.

"You get them above you and keep them there until they die."
- Umbreon

 

[DethM]

I don't see how that's relevant but sure.

"You get them above you and keep them there until they die."
- Umbreon

How is it irrelevant?

 

[Player -0]

It's more about P:M Marth's MU's as a whole rather than the currently discussed topic. Seems more like a post for the Tier List Speculation thread or something.

 

[DethM]

I suppose.

 

[Paradoxium]

Marth's grabs make you move where he wants you to move. He has decent options with where he can throw opponents. Though you wont see things like down throw to down air that can lead to a kill (looking at you angrily Mario). Notice that at "Marth percents" a forward trow is going to throw you toward or off the ledge. For a character that is best when it comes to edge guarding, this is a good thing because a good edge guard game will kill opponents no matter what their percents are. In a simple way Marth's base game can be summed up as - push them off stage and don't let them grab the ledge. The side and top blast zones need not be involved here.

Before saying who has a good or bad match up consider that if Marth controls spacing and positioning better than his opponent he is likely going to win. A character that can control space and position better than Marth is going to have the advantage. Who cares if DK can kill marth at 60% with a punch, Marth can gimp donkey any time he's off the stage. It doesn't matter if yoshi has power armor, throw him off the ledge until he exhausts himself. Tired of being slapped by Sheik? Grab her and toss her like a rag doll over and over again until you can edge guard her. Combos are very helpful, but fundamentals are what makes Marth succeed.

Marth is a good edge guarding character, but I don't think that it is his main strength. I think his main strength is his ability to wall your opponent when they are in the corner. his long ranged aerials combined with his amazing dash dance grab game gives him a really good punish game against characters stuck in the corner. he really can just keep them ion that spot until they either get edge guarded or outright killed.

 

[X0dus]

Marth vs. Snake advice? (Not just throw him off stage and spike him).

 

[DethM]

Marth vs. Snake advice? (Not just throw him off stage and spike him).

Just throw him offstage and spike him.



Kappa.



Just space better than him, try to keep the pressure on him. Dtilt loses some power in this matchup.

 

[Player -0]

Snake has no answer to disjointed, safe pressure from the front. Abuse this

 

[Chesstiger2612]

For good ranged shield pressure, there is a gif in Kadano's thread with max range fair&d-tilt pressure that are spaced enough to avoid Link's up-B. Needless to say it works on almost everyone else too.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

So uh I think Pikachu beats Marth. Mainly because he can rush down and play the spacing game with Marth.

Thoughts?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I'd give Pikachu a slight advantage, because it was kinda even in Melee and Pikachu got a few buffs, but they don't turn around the matchup enough to give Pikachu a overwhelming advantage.

 

[Honor]

The DDD matchup... just... ugg.

I'm looking for general thoughts to keep in mind. I know my spacing needs to improve but approaching DDD can just be a nightmare.

 

[Psyant]

I'd give Pikachu a slight advantage, because it was kinda even in Melee and Pikachu got a few buffs, but they don't turn around the matchup enough to give Pikachu a overwhelming advantage.

That's pretty much how I feel about it. The generally larger stages in PM also don't help Marth as far as actually landing the kill on Pikachu goes, which is one of his main problems in that MU. Probably like 55-45 to Pika in PM. It's a fair and honest matchup that pretty much just comes down to who plays better.

 

[X0dus]

The DDD matchup... just... ugg.

I'm looking for general thoughts to keep in mind. I know my spacing needs to improve but approaching DDD can just be a nightmare.

According to Heysuess, the match-up is about even (Not sure if its him sucking against Melee characters or if its actually true). As Marth, you have to do a lot of grabs and do your best to juggle DDD, because Marth juggles the **** out of him and can get a lot of regrabs and chaingrabs on him. Fair is a good way to approach iirc, because it gets rid of any waddle dee's and doo's, it has good range (It might go further than his grab), and its very safe and will juggle him. Never ever ever EVER go off stage. Like ever, you will probably die. Also, you will have to work harder and kill from spikes and tippers (Mostly).

 

[Player -0]

I think Ripple says DDD wins hard.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

DDD has an advantage for sure.

 

[Vorlaith]

Thoughts on the Kirby match up? I'd assume heavily in Marth's favour but what are some things I should look out for against Kirby?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Keep your spacing, don't be overzealous when edgeguarding, watch out for dash attacks in neutral.

 

[Deleted member]

kirby beats marth (and ike badly for the same reasons). dont jump, just crouch and do WD in and out of crouch- marth cant do anything to you but dtilt, which is admittedly pretty good but easy enough to work around.

now imagine if marth didnt have dtilt either. thats the MU for ike.

 

[foxygrandpa]

kirby doesnt really beat marth...its true that its tough for marth at low percents but marth is still heavily winning neutral and has the tools to rack up damage in a safe manner. Crouching is a really good tool for kirby but the IASA frames on marths dtilt are favorable enough so that you really shouldnt be getting punished off it too much. When crouch cancel gets less effective, marth gets a big upper hand too. It's probably slightly in marths favor.

Kirby ike is pretty bad though.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

If the Marth is able to pivot d-tilt consistently Marth wins comfortably

 

[Scaremonger]

Kirby definitely beats Marth in this game, lol. Coming from someone who plays Kirby in Melee, Marth is by far one of his easiest matchups and Kirby got a ton of pretty relevant buffs to make the matchup favorable for him imo. Kirby is basically Puff now with far superior ground movement, tilts that are all twice as fast, but no rest. Rest doesn't even matter much though because Kirby has tons of crazy free ways of killing Marth (platform techchase upairs and gimping with dtilt are really good)

I'm not 100% sure if it's copied over 1:1, but in Melee, Kirby's dtilt will kill Marth up+bing at any percent, and Marth can't space up+b around it. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work in PM as well since the size of the hitbox does not seem to differ in any meaningful way.

I disagree with the idea that Marth "heavily wins neutral" too. Kirby has a lot of really strong methods of staying safe in neutral that Marth has trouble dealing with. Crouch -> wd -> crouch and crouch -> wd -> uptilt are so good against Marth. Dtilt is obviously good for Marth, it's not like Marth is powerless or something, I just don't think Marth "heavily wins neutral". WD -> uptilt is a burst movement action with a giant hitbox out on frame 17 from standing. dtilt also only controls space on the ground and Kirby has really good aerials.

tbh a ton of the PM community overrates the hell out of Marth's neutral game because nobody (as in the vast majority of PM players) actually knows how to bait anything. Marth's neutral game destroys everyone that doesn't know how to bait ****, and people who are used to autowinning neutral get stomped because of that.

 

[Honor]

Getting back into M and am struggling with the Zelda MU. Thoughts?

 

[CelloLuCC]

Idk if this has been asked already, but...

Anyone have tips for Fox? When I get close (enough to hit with tipper) he runs all over me, and if I'm farther back (outside my reach a bit) he spams lasers. If I go for grabs, I get shined. Any tips?