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Marth Matchup thread.
- Thread starter CyberZixx
- Start date
D
Deleted member
Guest
i think marth vs pit is even but i understand why zero thinks pit loses as well.
Comet7
Smash Lord
Do you know what I hate? Marth dittos. Advice PLEASE. I lose in Melee, Project M, and even Brawl. WHAT'S THE SECRET???
D
Deleted member
Guest
be better at DD abuse, grab upthrow to get them above you
also wait better
also wait better
zzzzzzzzzz
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2007
- Messages
- 57
is up throw vs marth really a thing? at what %?
D
Deleted member
Guest
any until KO
AirFair
Marth tho
from what I've heard, grabs are the way to go in a ditto, so just get the first grab off and juggle with a u throw
I've been playing Marth for a few months now, and I have to say this matchup has given me the most trouble out of almost all matchups i've played. I think in melee his worst matchup was possibly sheik, but in PM Marth Sheik is possibly the most even matchup in the game. But anyways, onto opening up this matchup.
The Reason I think this is marths worst match up is for a few reasons.
I made this a separate thread without realizing exactly what this thread was for. So i'm posting it here, and after reading taht some people think pit loses or goes even with marth, i'd like some thought on this subject.
Edit: After reading some of the posts from before I can agree that this match up is definitely more even than I thought. I'd still like to know what his worst match up is though, even if he doesn't have any match-ups that are so bad that I should play someone else.
The Reason I think this is marths worst match up is for a few reasons.
- Pits Gimping Potential ~
Its annoying how hard Pit can gimp Marth with arrows. To play this match up you have to be extremely careful off the stage because of arrows, and the fact that pits recovery is just straight better than Marths in so many ways. Marth's Side+B stall makes it easier for Pit to hit him with arrows. This isn't like a G&W bucket stall or a Mario Cape stall where projectiles don't mean ****, Marths stall leaves him very vulnerable to projectiles, and when you have Rapid fire pit arrows coming at you, theres not much you can do except try to maneuver around them with side+b, which is really hard after the first side+b. After that, your only option is to jump and hope you can sweet spot the ledge.
- Pits Down throw -
Pits down throw on Marth is probably the most annoying part of this match up. If you're at around 100%, expect to get down thrown, and either up+b'd or up+smashed, and don't be suprised when you get star KO'd. Marth is at a damn near perfect weight and fall speed for Pit to kill him really early on with his amazing off the top KO power.
- Pits Recovery -
Pits recovery is extremely hard for Marth to gimp if not played almost perfectly. While yes, the Ken Combo is still an option to kill Pit, as it is with just about everyone, its really hard for Marth to straight gimp pit out side of that. He has multiple jumps, side+b to fly back on to the stage from far away, and an up+b which is farther than one of his jumps and can kill Marth pretty easily.
I made this a separate thread without realizing exactly what this thread was for. So i'm posting it here, and after reading taht some people think pit loses or goes even with marth, i'd like some thought on this subject.
Edit: After reading some of the posts from before I can agree that this match up is definitely more even than I thought. I'd still like to know what his worst match up is though, even if he doesn't have any match-ups that are so bad that I should play someone else.
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Sheik basically has pits down throw in melee so, just imagine pit marth but with needles and a worse recovery. Thats the match up in melee. In this game, sheik should be played much more defensively, as her offensive options are very limited in this game. So, the match up is basically who can bait out who first, and whoever does, wins, and both can do it extremely effectively.
Its so even its frustrating.
Its so even its frustrating.
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Darkoness21
Smash Cadet
Can anyone give any tips about the Pikachu vs Marth MU? I'm always struggling against my buddy.
Stay grounded, rolling through or shielding if they approach with a jump is usually fine (most Pika's won't consider or know how to get around those options effectively once they commit to a jump), basically spacing is key and you treat him kind of like Fox. If they are actually quite good with the character, it boils down to a huge and dangerous waiting game.
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Darkoness21
Smash Cadet
What are my options OoS? I'm thinking of mixing up d-tilts, f-tilts, and SHFFL fade away bairs. My main problem is falling victim to the dreaded Up smash.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Just try to be prepared for the dash attack, otherwise you are outranging Kirby so much it shouldn't be that hard.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Not sure if this works for real though.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
Regrabs should be avoidable with better DI but you should get an up-air instead
Jacob29
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jul 17, 2013
- Messages
- 530
Can we quickly run over the MewTwo MU Gameplan?
All of his tilts have such little end lag and are so easily spammable I am finding it hard to dash dance and wait for an opportunity because it's so god damn small if there at all.
And his up and back air outrange us so hard. What tends to happen is I combo him pretty hard, but if I end up above him it's pretty much all over with up-airs and up-tilts I can't get down at all.
Then I can't edgeguard him due to his crazy recovery amount and teleport. Only reason I am able to kill him at all is because the player is so predictable with his teleports so I just punish him hard for that with usually a nair waiting for him.
but his bair edgeguards us so hard. then he has amazing rolls, which I've heard Marth has trouble dealing with unless he is able to read them.
All of his tilts have such little end lag and are so easily spammable I am finding it hard to dash dance and wait for an opportunity because it's so god damn small if there at all.
And his up and back air outrange us so hard. What tends to happen is I combo him pretty hard, but if I end up above him it's pretty much all over with up-airs and up-tilts I can't get down at all.
Then I can't edgeguard him due to his crazy recovery amount and teleport. Only reason I am able to kill him at all is because the player is so predictable with his teleports so I just punish him hard for that with usually a nair waiting for him.
but his bair edgeguards us so hard. then he has amazing rolls, which I've heard Marth has trouble dealing with unless he is able to read them.
Keep regrabbing the edge
Waveland onstage
Jump from edge (can be decent with PM's much quicker response window for that option, used to be **** in Melee)
Jump with spaced Fair/Nair without landing onstage
Jump onstage with Nair if they are overcrowding the edge since you will probably cross up their shield
Not necessarily super duper strong options, but you gotta make do
Waveland onstage
Jump from edge (can be decent with PM's much quicker response window for that option, used to be **** in Melee)
Jump with spaced Fair/Nair without landing onstage
Jump onstage with Nair if they are overcrowding the edge since you will probably cross up their shield
Not necessarily super duper strong options, but you gotta make do
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NonSequtur
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2014
- Messages
- 35
Waveland grab/cross-up?
If your waveland timing is sloppy, or your edge drop timing is sloppy, you won't be fully invincible and can get punished in waveland lag. I don't know the list of chars, but I was fairly sure Marth was one that could waveland with 100% invincibility
InfinityCollision
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,245
Marth wavelands with invincibility, but he only gets a few frames (4 iirc?) of invincibility after exiting landfallspecial even if you're frame perfect.
If anything I think the biggest obstacle with punishing Mewtwo isn't so much watching for any one thing as it is the fact that you're trying to watch for tilts, command grabs, woops, projectiles, etc all at the same time.
Mewtwo's tilts do still have some endlag (especially ftilt) and fare poorly on block, particularly for someone like Marth that's fast and can challenge his range. Dtilt is his best at -12 and ~18 frames endlag; the others are worse on block and have >20 frames of endlag relative to the forward hitboxes. The timing's tight for punishing whiffs but it's doable; punishing on block is very doable but it's possible he'd throw out Confusion as a mixup. His rolls have good range but he's pretty vulnerable on the back end, given Marth's mobility and range it should definitely be punishable.
If anything I think the biggest obstacle with punishing Mewtwo isn't so much watching for any one thing as it is the fact that you're trying to watch for tilts, command grabs, woops, projectiles, etc all at the same time.
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shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
So yesterday I lost to DK, and it made me wonder about how I should go about the matchup. What mostly got me were shield grabs (DK's grab range is insane) and CC dtilt/grab. Approaching DK as Marth seemed like a pretty futile endeavour taking in account his grab range, and it felt like he could stuff out all my options at the ledge simply by crouching, even well past 50%. I still have work to do in my option coverage when DK is recovering, but if anybody else has tips I'd like to hear them.
EDIT: You can see the match here at 3h22 if you so desire
EDIT: You can see the match here at 3h22 if you so desire
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If you approach DK, it's 90% with your own grab due to the mentioned shield/CC issues. The only attack you can generally throw out with respect is your Dtilt, but that can be CC'd and countered if you are too close with it (maybe even at max range if they are really good at timing a dash grab afterwards). Dtilt and most attacking moves are also generally a bad idea if DK is running up into shield: you can respect the distance from his dashing attempts, or you can opt to stuff them with your own grabs. If their DD spacing is tight, they will just forgo the shield and go for the grab, but vs sloppier spacing or less patient DDing by the DK player, you can 95% bait out those grabs and get your own punish
Watching just Game 1, I can already tell why you'd have trouble with the MU. Your 3 biggest issues or problem areas were this from what I can tell:
1. Very anxious to get back to the ground once DK got a grab or launch. Obviously it's a bad spot to be in as Marth, but I think you overused counter as an option for getting out. Counter loses to most options, except for immediate followups that are not timed well or aren't true combo links. In those scenarios, you might want to just jump out instead and figure out a Side B reverse stall? Or if you want an immediate stopper move, Dair is probably harder to respect. A few times, you even countered his aerial but missed due to spacing issues, and still ate a hit afterwards. Those concerns are enough to only use Down B sporadically in that manner
2. A lot of whiffed attacks after throws or lower %'s. DK is one of those characters where they generally accept the tech chase position defensively, and force you to read them to keep any true combo going. You'll notice that below 50% or so, with DI away or DI away + down, they tend to avoid 98% of followups. You cannot afford to Fthrow into Whiffed Fsmash: those are lost opportunities that will haunt you. Even if it's not a lot of damage, you need to take what you can get with multiple Fthrows/read their tech roll options, and try to get a positional advantage near the edge or with a platform etc. DK is one of those MU's where you can't afford to lose your positional advantage once you obtain a decent one, and the quickest way to lose it is to attack in spots where a more patient read or grab is required.
3. Edgeguarding DK. You kept setting up for Bairs a lot, and there's not much advantage to using Bair over facing him directly. Bairs and Fairs generally won't threaten DK very much offstage, unless he has bad DI on the hit and allows another hit/Dair to come. Fairs and Bairs usually allow them to gain some vertical height on their Upb attempts or refresh their Upb attempt. Sweetspot attempts are best dealt with Dtilt and stealing the edge first (technically stage spiking them is possible but not safe). Going slightly above the edge is also dealt with by Dtilt, Fsmash, and Dair. Going any higher usually gives you a free hit, but if that is the case you'll want something better than Fair or Bair. Maybe there's a platform you can rise through and land on after the attack. If so, you might like Uair. If you read that they will go high, you can try for the ballsy backward Dair spike as well: backward Dair is a pretty decent DK edgeguard tool once you get used to it. I've had tournament matches where I literally take 2-3 of their stocks with that once they come back.
TL:DR
You need to keep positional advantage vs bigger heavier chars like DK, D3, Zard, etc. Whiffing attacks, or being predictable in defensive situations is the most likely way to lose to them. Way more so than the average character. You need to accept, and possibly grow, your positional advantage instead of going for damage. What difference does 30-50% make to a heavier character, if it means you run out of steam and go back to neutral? Vs only taking 10-15% from Fthrows, but being throw offstage and legitimately having a chance of death WHILE you can also generally keep an edge positionally?
Watching just Game 1, I can already tell why you'd have trouble with the MU. Your 3 biggest issues or problem areas were this from what I can tell:
1. Very anxious to get back to the ground once DK got a grab or launch. Obviously it's a bad spot to be in as Marth, but I think you overused counter as an option for getting out. Counter loses to most options, except for immediate followups that are not timed well or aren't true combo links. In those scenarios, you might want to just jump out instead and figure out a Side B reverse stall? Or if you want an immediate stopper move, Dair is probably harder to respect. A few times, you even countered his aerial but missed due to spacing issues, and still ate a hit afterwards. Those concerns are enough to only use Down B sporadically in that manner
2. A lot of whiffed attacks after throws or lower %'s. DK is one of those characters where they generally accept the tech chase position defensively, and force you to read them to keep any true combo going. You'll notice that below 50% or so, with DI away or DI away + down, they tend to avoid 98% of followups. You cannot afford to Fthrow into Whiffed Fsmash: those are lost opportunities that will haunt you. Even if it's not a lot of damage, you need to take what you can get with multiple Fthrows/read their tech roll options, and try to get a positional advantage near the edge or with a platform etc. DK is one of those MU's where you can't afford to lose your positional advantage once you obtain a decent one, and the quickest way to lose it is to attack in spots where a more patient read or grab is required.
3. Edgeguarding DK. You kept setting up for Bairs a lot, and there's not much advantage to using Bair over facing him directly. Bairs and Fairs generally won't threaten DK very much offstage, unless he has bad DI on the hit and allows another hit/Dair to come. Fairs and Bairs usually allow them to gain some vertical height on their Upb attempts or refresh their Upb attempt. Sweetspot attempts are best dealt with Dtilt and stealing the edge first (technically stage spiking them is possible but not safe). Going slightly above the edge is also dealt with by Dtilt, Fsmash, and Dair. Going any higher usually gives you a free hit, but if that is the case you'll want something better than Fair or Bair. Maybe there's a platform you can rise through and land on after the attack. If so, you might like Uair. If you read that they will go high, you can try for the ballsy backward Dair spike as well: backward Dair is a pretty decent DK edgeguard tool once you get used to it. I've had tournament matches where I literally take 2-3 of their stocks with that once they come back.
TL:DR
You need to keep positional advantage vs bigger heavier chars like DK, D3, Zard, etc. Whiffing attacks, or being predictable in defensive situations is the most likely way to lose to them. Way more so than the average character. You need to accept, and possibly grow, your positional advantage instead of going for damage. What difference does 30-50% make to a heavier character, if it means you run out of steam and go back to neutral? Vs only taking 10-15% from Fthrows, but being throw offstage and legitimately having a chance of death WHILE you can also generally keep an edge positionally?
Player -0
Smash Hero
I have a TON of trouble gimping DK for some reason, I might just suck at spacing but his arm hitboxes always hit me, any advice besides not sucking?
I don't have advice for that besides not sucking LOL. I can't explain it, but after playing against DK for awhile you'll understand how to deal with it. The main thing to understand if you aren't totally confident, is that being under DK keeps you in a decent position. Challenging it on horizontal terms is doable, but you usually want to be grounded when doing it. This covers low and mid recovery choices decently, and I can't imagine you'd need more help for those scenarios. If he's higher up, you can allow him to go above you instead of trying to Fair or challenge him. If he's above you, he's still in a bad spot and vulnerable if you don't goof.
Nair is a pretty easy move to try and get him with, lot of active frames. It's a tad lazy and sometimes inefficient, but you can always try that move more if they are going higher. To be at a height where Fsmash or Ftilt do not connect though is pretty high and a tad predictable.
Nair is a pretty easy move to try and get him with, lot of active frames. It's a tad lazy and sometimes inefficient, but you can always try that move more if they are going higher. To be at a height where Fsmash or Ftilt do not connect though is pretty high and a tad predictable.
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
If nothing else helps you can also CC the arm hits and f-smash afterwards but taking no damage is obviously prefered.
D
Deleted member
Guest
don't try to gimp him, just keep stuffing his options. when you get him off the stage just keep hitting him back off with tip bair or non-tip fair, if he goes high upair him, just never let him land or back on the stage. on one hand it's single hits from like 40-220 sometimes and take a full minute, on the other hand if you're patient enough there's no reason to lose position and it's a free kill. just remember that it's frustrating for both sides and don't punt.
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menotyou135
Smash Journeyman
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/projectm/character/marth/
What out of this is true and what out of this is BS? I feel like a lot of the "unfavorable" and "favorable" matchups are actually even, while charizard is not actually an even matchup.
Thoughts?
What out of this is true and what out of this is BS? I feel like a lot of the "unfavorable" and "favorable" matchups are actually even, while charizard is not actually an even matchup.
Thoughts?
I don't think the PM ratings are accurate past Top 10 or so. If I'm counting the votes correctly, there's like roughly 20 votes per MU lol. The list literally means nothing: I could draft a more accurate mu chart for Marth in like 20 min lol
Chesstiger2612
Smash Lord
D
Deleted member
Guest
i feel like marth bodies zard pretty easily. any char that doesnt have a way to beat his general plan from melee is still going to lose to marth pretty hard and zard fits that description
How does Zard lack the ability to fight Marth? He can fight Marth similar to DK in many aspects: huge grab, decent dash, hold down for lulz, great combos on Marth's weight, etc. If you think DK does fine, but Zard doesn't, I'm not sure you're playing or seeing the lamo Zards.