Marth in Brawl-

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So I'm running this project, Brawl-, and I was planning on working on marth until it hit me-I don't know **** about how to break marth. The idea of "double sword length" was thrown out the window because, well, it's stupidly polarizing, and now I don't know what to do. So how can marth be broken, and gain a very special, interesting new style while doing so? Where are buffs most needed/most obvious, what do you guys want most?

Please keep in mind that I'm not looking for OHKOs, instant easy 0-death chains, or conventional chaingrabs (DI-based uthrow cg could work though).

 

[Zankoku]

Just eliminate cooldown on his attacks, haha. It worked for Meta Knight.

 

[Steel]

make his dtilt iasa at 14 or maybe speed up the hit frame to like 3 or 4 and if u do that then make the iasa like 7-9

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Oh BTW guys, keep in mind that while there are no sweeping physics changes (like, everyone's dgrav x1.2) or physic template changes to all chars (our motto on ground work: "what's ground work?"), the hitstun is 0.54.

Wouldn't a dtilt sped up like that make dtilt locks stupidly easy/make you able to dtilt your opponent across the stage?

 

[Steel]

I dunno just make it like boner knights

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You guys really, really don't like MK around here, am I right?

I suppose I should more accurately ask: how should marth play if we were to break him wide open? How should he run, what should his style be? How would he be fun, but not really polarizing, and still marth?

(They shot down my idea of "replace marth with roy", before anyone mentions that :V)

 

[Zankoku]

You guys really, really don't like MK around here, am I right?

I suppose I should more accurately ask: how should marth play if we were to break him wide open? How should he run, what should his style be? How would he be fun, but not really polarizing, and still marth?

(They shot down my idea of "replace marth with roy", before anyone mentions that :V)

I'm quite certain that Meta Knight is a nerfed version of breaking Marth. They "eliminated his cooldown" by making his aerials multihit (fair/bair) or just severely reducing cooldown (uair/dair/dsmash/dtilt), and then gave him a nerfed "infinite jump" by only giving him five. That was still too good so they removed the tipper and made him lighter.

So all you need to do is make Marth get back his jump whenever he does his side+B, eliminate cooldown on his attacks so he can fair 6 times a second, and make his shieldbreaker actually break shields.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Well, the problem with that is that it creates a char that completely ***** the rest of the cast. Infinite recovery is a huge no-no, and while making marth way faster is considerable, it seems... kinda dull, ionno. The shieldbreaker idea is clearly on the list. Maybe make it so that it charges longer, lower charges break shields, higher charges are an unblockable version of Eruption.

 

[Zankoku]

In that case just give him back his Melee everything. Except the Counter and Dolphin Slash.

 

[Rubberbandman]

Make Shield Breaker pierce PerfectShielding.
A dream come true imo.

SB should push marth forward even more. Reduce cooldown on his aerials. and the IASA on Dash sounds nice.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Make Shield Breaker pierce PerfectShielding.
A dream come true imo.

SB should push marth forward even more. Reduce cooldown on his aerials. and the IASA on Dash sounds nice.

Make Shield Breaker also Break the shield no matter what.

Oh and Marth should be able to shoot beams out of his sword lol

 

[MK26]

BPC, i think it would be easier for them to visualize what youre doing by showing them the characters that youve already done so far

like, say, this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbS2s-xTVM0

 

[Zankoku]

I don't think you can do much to Marth of that degree of ridiculousness unless you do something like Assassin.

 

[phi1ny3]

^lol I remember that video

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I don't think you can do much to Marth of that degree of ridiculousness unless you do something like Assassin.

that looks awesome hope they implement that

 

[Rubberbandman]

Lol, I never saw that before Ankoku. That inspires me to say REMOVE ALL COOLDOWN FROM DB, make it the longest stringing combo possible.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Ironically, I noticed the Brawl- forums were drawing a blank on breaking Marth, so I thought up some ideas of my own (at least for Dancing Blade):

-DB1 should be dramatically increased in hitstun, to the point of actually comboing into things like grab, D-smash, and perhaps aerials if Marth performs it in the air.

-Dancing Blade's counter tends to be its punishable nature on shields, so I thought of some traits to its individual hits to make Dancing Blade diverse and even more difficult to deal with:

DB1: included above

DB2mid: Nothing really except shieldstun, to keep the opponent locked inside his/her shield if applicable, probably increased damage as well. (Most of dancing blade's hits should have increased damage)

DB2up: Same as DB2mid, with slightly more knock-back heading upwards.

DB3mid: This hit will have more range, and will actually have knockback comparable to the original DB4mid, only with a set knockback for the finale.

DB3down: High shield damage, so the DB4down will certainly shield-poke, if the opponent had very low shield at this point, the shield will break.

DB3up: Should have significant upwards knockback to set up for a potential DB4up tipper, higher hitstun so you have time to consider what finale to use depending on opponents DI.

DB4mid: The actual damage and knockback might be raised, but the biggest change I have in mind is a fire slash projectile (that DB3 mid set up into) with some knockback, but this is mostly for damage purposes rather than getting the kill.

DB4down: Should be harder to DI out of, but not impossible. (The hitstun for the individual stabs should be high so if they do DI out, it isnt easily punishable) It should semi-spike, and perhaps even give a flower condition out.

DB4up: This is where the attack kills. The only change made to this should be a windbox heading up and forward. This attack shouldn't kill as early as 60%, but at the same time the reward for setting up a tipper for this attack should be extravagant. The windboxes heading forward should blend well with DB3mid's set knockback.

I liked the idea of Shield Breaker breaking shields 100% of the time, maybe increase shieldstun so that even a perfect shield stays out long enough for another Shield Breaker to hit?

Brawl- looks awesome by the way, I can't wait to see the finished product.

 

[Shaya]

Okay:

Increase fast fall speed (not normal fall) to about 150%+ of what it is now.
Make DB1 come out in 2 frames, barely any stun, barely any damage, but finishes in 10 frames (or whatever amount of frames that have Marth move up vertically)
Dair has 20+ less frames cool down. Non tipper dairs have a constant damage and trajectory of sending up.
Uair/nair/bair/fair 5-10 frames cool down.

dancing blade down 4 does A LOT MORE DAMAGE. Make it harder to SDI, but the move requires any SDI otherwise you get hurt -a lot- (I'm thinking smash 64 samus' completely fair or yoshi's dair here [lol]).

dancing blade down 3 has IASA frames on cool down.

Dancing Blades 1-3 forward are of the same speed and cooldown of meta knight's ftilt (except make the 3rd hit not as much cool down).

fsmash -10 cool down
dsmash -15 (minimum) cool down
up smash does its big damage but then sends them down into a forced tech chase akin to Snake's dthrow.

tippers on smash attacks are more of the entire sword length.

Nair's hitbox covers most of his body and each 'hit' has it's own potential hitbox (i.e. atm the frame 6 hit out front is its own hit, whilst the next 3 hits (front, back, front) is only one hitbox, hence only one potential hit. Make the hits combo into eachother.

uair has slightly faster start up, does less knockback untippered (make the untippered hitbox easier to hit with) and less cool down.

bair doesn't turn you around. Has trajectory that will send you more downwards.

Fair trips.

Shieldbreaker has IASA frames from 14-18 (is this possible?) so to give up using the move before it hits if wanted (like diddy using peanut gun and shielding to stop it with no lag).

Shieldbreaker has more damage (hence shield stun/distance) at low charge up times.

Utilt hits 'bigger' (maybe it replicate the animation for the hitbox at least plus also reasonable range around his legs), cut lag by 5-10 frames.

Ftilt kills, well.

Dash attack is like Melee's again (trajectories that set up combos). But faster start up and cool down.

Back throw kills.


So my broken Marth:
a) Combos the **** out of you in the air like a boss.
b) Can teleport from any vertical height almost.
c) mindgames your shields forevers.
d) FTILTS

Also remember that even though i said reduce cool down of many moves, you should probably do it to every move for up to 20-50% or so of its cool down.

Changes in jump heights to accomodate ****.

Make dolphin slash not have free fall.
Make counter auto cancel.

 

[Nic64]

Make him like this

 

[LooftWaffles]

Guys, you're trying pretty hard, but I'm actually disappointed.

Give Marth 3 more jumps.

Dolphin Slash doesnt leave in helpless.

Make Dair a stomp.



Everything after that is window dressing.

 

[Roy_R]

ve him his elee grab back and keep everything else the same.. that sounds fair.

 

[-Ran]

ve him his elee grab back and keep everything else the same.. that sounds fair.

-translates.-

Give him melee grab range back, and keep everything else the same. That would sound fair.


<3

 

[PK-ow!]

Make it so some attacks pull characters toward Marth?

Similar for Shield push?

There is technology in the game for "pulling" shield pushes.


As to which moves to give it to, that would be, whatever helps him.
It would also be a ninteresting way to give some characters hope for getting through the wall. Although that goes against the 100% broken mission statement, lol.


Ooh, and I like that flashy, teleporting, colorful Assassin set.


Definitely make DB have turbo punishment. Plus you could maybe get some mileage out of the 18 versions.


Marth, in Smash and even his origin game, moves about the field of battle with lethal tactical precision. Giving Marth alarming movement abilities seems to line up with that, making him "more of himself."

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Make it so some attacks pull characters toward Marth?

Similar for Shield push?

There is technology in the game for "pulling" shield pushes.


As to which moves to give it to, that would be, whatever helps him.
It would also be a ninteresting way to give some characters hope for getting through the wall. Although that goes against the 100% broken mission statement, lol.

how about one move that brings the foe twards him that way he can still tipper and one of Marth's weaknesses are gone.

 

[feardragon64]

How about you let him Dolphin Slash during hitstun. I think that would make him pretty competitive.

 

[JOE!]

why not make all his hitboxes tippers, but keep him the same otherwise?

 

[Rubberbandman]

Increase tipper range and grab range. Make grabs combo-able like in melee. 'nuff said

 

[-Ran]

Let his up throw and Forward throw have no knockback growth. Increase the hitstun slightly so that Marth can truly combo out of them for one hit, and then read reactions after that. Make nontipper F-air, b-air, and Uair have barely any knockback but more hitstun to allow for sexiness.

 

[[TSON]]

Okay:

Increase fast fall speed (not normal fall) to about 150%+ of what it is now.
Make DB1 come out in 2 frames, barely any stun, barely any damage, but finishes in 10 frames (or whatever amount of frames that have Marth move up vertically)
Dair has 20+ less frames cool down. Non tipper dairs have a constant damage and trajectory of sending up.
Uair/nair/bair/fair 5-10 frames cool down.

dancing blade down 4 does A LOT MORE DAMAGE. Make it harder to SDI, but the move requires any SDI otherwise you get hurt -a lot- (I'm thinking smash 64 samus' completely fair or yoshi's dair here [lol]).

dancing blade down 3 has IASA frames on cool down.

Dancing Blades 1-3 forward are of the same speed and cooldown of meta knight's ftilt (except make the 3rd hit not as much cool down).

fsmash -10 cool down
dsmash -15 (minimum) cool down
up smash does its big damage but then sends them down into a forced tech chase akin to Snake's dthrow.

tippers on smash attacks are more of the entire sword length.

Nair's hitbox covers most of his body and each 'hit' has it's own potential hitbox (i.e. atm the frame 6 hit out front is its own hit, whilst the next 3 hits (front, back, front) is only one hitbox, hence only one potential hit. Make the hits combo into eachother.

uair has slightly faster start up, does less knockback untippered (make the untippered hitbox easier to hit with) and less cool down.

bair doesn't turn you around. Has trajectory that will send you more downwards.

Fair trips.

Shieldbreaker has IASA frames from 14-18 (is this possible?) so to give up using the move before it hits if wanted (like diddy using peanut gun and shielding to stop it with no lag).

Shieldbreaker has more damage (hence shield stun/distance) at low charge up times.

Utilt hits 'bigger' (maybe it replicate the animation for the hitbox at least plus also reasonable range around his legs), cut lag by 5-10 frames.

Ftilt kills, well.

Dash attack is like Melee's again (trajectories that set up combos). But faster start up and cool down.

Back throw kills.


So my broken Marth:
a) Combos the **** out of you in the air like a boss.
b) Can teleport from any vertical height almost.
c) mindgames your shields forevers.
d) FTILTS

Also remember that even though i said reduce cool down of many moves, you should probably do it to every move for up to 20-50% or so of its cool down.

Changes in jump heights to accomodate ****.

see i was stoked for this i was ready to code it

Make dolphin slash not have free fall.
Make counter auto cancel.

ok what

you threw off my groove bro

 

[Shaya]

Well those last two things were like,
a bonus :D

 

[Albert.]

Marth should be able to throw his sword at people.

But have unlimmited swords conealed in his tiara.

(projectile)

 

[LooftWaffles]

Marth should be able to throw his sword at people.

But have unlimmited swords conealed in his tiara.

(projectile)

Tiara boomerang FTW

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

lol Tiara lasers FTW

 

[legion598]

make the tipped portion of his hit boxes larger and have more priority. viable spikes, and Fsmashes anyone? maybe less cool down on Fsmash and other attacks, Melee style grab range and a shorter Dash would also be good

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ironically, I noticed the Brawl- forums were drawing a blank on breaking Marth, so I thought up some ideas of my own (at least for Dancing Blade):

-DB1 should be dramatically increased in hitstun, to the point of actually comboing into things like grab, D-smash, and perhaps aerials if Marth performs it in the air.

-Dancing Blade's counter tends to be its punishable nature on shields, so I thought of some traits to its individual hits to make Dancing Blade diverse and even more difficult to deal with:

DB1: included above

DB2mid: Nothing really except shieldstun, to keep the opponent locked inside his/her shield if applicable, probably increased damage as well. (Most of dancing blade's hits should have increased damage)

DB2up: Same as DB2mid, with slightly more knock-back heading upwards.

DB3mid: This hit will have more range, and will actually have knockback comparable to the original DB4mid, only with a set knockback for the finale.

DB3down: High shield damage, so the DB4down will certainly shield-poke, if the opponent had very low shield at this point, the shield will break.

DB3up: Should have significant upwards knockback to set up for a potential DB4up tipper, higher hitstun so you have time to consider what finale to use depending on opponents DI.

DB4mid: The actual damage and knockback might be raised, but the biggest change I have in mind is a fire slash projectile (that DB3 mid set up into) with some knockback, but this is mostly for damage purposes rather than getting the kill.

DB4down: Should be harder to DI out of, but not impossible. (The hitstun for the individual stabs should be high so if they do DI out, it isnt easily punishable) It should semi-spike, and perhaps even give a flower condition out.

DB4up: This is where the attack kills. The only change made to this should be a windbox heading up and forward. This attack shouldn't kill as early as 60%, but at the same time the reward for setting up a tipper for this attack should be extravagant. The windboxes heading forward should blend well with DB3mid's set knockback.

I liked the idea of Shield Breaker breaking shields 100% of the time, maybe increase shieldstun so that even a perfect shield stays out long enough for another Shield Breaker to hit?

Brawl- looks awesome by the way, I can't wait to see the finished product.

Kewl. I'll add some of that stuff to the list.

Okay:

Increase fast fall speed (not normal fall) to about 150%+ of what it is now. K. Sounds like helpful stuff.
Make DB1 come out in 2 frames, barely any stun, barely any damage, but finishes in 10 frames (or whatever amount of frames that have Marth move up vertically) ? What is this supposed to do? Also, dunno how many frames that is :V
Dair has 20+ less frames cool down. Non tipper dairs have a constant damage and trajectory of sending up. K, that sounds busted as ****.
Uair/nair/bair/fair 5-10 frames cool down. This is gonna be one fast, fast marth.

dancing blade down 4 does A LOT MORE DAMAGE. Make it harder to SDI, but the move requires any SDI otherwise you get hurt -a lot- (I'm thinking smash 64 samus' completely fair or yoshi's dair here [lol]). What if it also busted shields? It just hit me that with the higher shieldstun, making the down hit wreck shields could be really, really cool.

dancing blade down 3 has IASA frames on cool down. ? Why?

Dancing Blades 1-3 forward are of the same speed and cooldown of meta knight's ftilt (except make the 3rd hit not as much cool down). okay...

fsmash -10 cool down Yep
dsmash -15 (minimum) cool down Yep
up smash does its big damage but then sends them down into a forced tech chase akin to Snake's dthrow. O.o Okay...

tippers on smash attacks are more of the entire sword length. Given.

Nair's hitbox covers most of his body and each 'hit' has it's own potential hitbox (i.e. atm the frame 6 hit out front is its own hit, whilst the next 3 hits (front, back, front) is only one hitbox, hence only one potential hit. Make the hits combo into eachother. Could be tricky... I can try though or give it to someone who is good with PSA :V

uair has slightly faster start up, does less knockback untippered (make the untippered hitbox easier to hit with) and less cool down. Ok

bair doesn't turn you around. Has trajectory that will send you more downwards. k

Fair trips. O.o Why? Not combos into itself stupidly easy?

Shieldbreaker has IASA frames from 14-18 (is this possible?) so to give up using the move before it hits if wanted (like diddy using peanut gun and shielding to stop it with no lag). That would work.

Shieldbreaker has more damage (hence shield stun/distance) at low charge up times. K. Still think it should just bust the crap out of shields.

Utilt hits 'bigger' (maybe it replicate the animation for the hitbox at least plus also reasonable range around his legs), cut lag by 5-10 frames.

Ftilt kills, well.

Dash attack is like Melee's again (trajectories that set up combos). But faster start up and cool down.

Back throw kills.

k, wat, k, and wat

So my broken Marth:
a) Combos the **** out of you in the air like a boss.
b) Can teleport from any vertical height almost.
c) mindgames your shields forevers.
d) FTILTS

Also remember that even though i said reduce cool down of many moves, you should probably do it to every move for up to 20-50% or so of its cool down.

Changes in jump heights to accomodate ****.

Make dolphin slash not have free fall.
Make counter auto cancel.

Sure thing. Also, maybe we should just say "**** it" and make him an MK ripoff :V (AKA like 3-4 more jumps)

Make him like this

That is a sexy marth. That sideB should be the new DownB, because counter sucks. :V

ve him his elee grab back and keep everything else the same.. that sounds fair.

Melee grab=win.

How about you let him Dolphin Slash during hitstun. I think that would make him pretty competitive.

1. Don't think that will even work, lol.
2. That would be so stupidly broken... Basically, immune to multihit attacks and combos of all kinds.

why not make all his hitboxes tippers, but keep him the same otherwise?

Well, we're gonna buff the range on the tipper AFAIK.

Let his up throw and Forward throw have no knockback growth. Increase the hitstun slightly so that Marth can truly combo out of them for one hit, and then read reactions after that. Make nontipper F-air, b-air, and Uair have barely any knockback but more hitstun to allow for sexiness.

Ok. I'll check this **** out.

 

[Merce]

How about make his up B kind of like sonics, in that he can attack out of it? That would give him the ninja-strike-from-anywhere feel.

 

[Diddyknight]

up B to upB to upB to upB....

lawl

 

[Merce]

...no. His up-b would be analogous to sonics. Sonic can attack out of his spring, but cannot spring again.

Marth could up-B without going into free-fall, and therefore could Shoot up with the dolphin slash hit box, then be free to follow the opponent down with his aerial attacks.

I wasn't proposing an infinite up b...

 

[Shaya]

Make DB1 come out in 2 frames, barely any stun, barely any damage, but finishes in 10 frames (or whatever amount of frames that have Marth move up vertically) ? What is this supposed to do? Also, dunno how many frames that is :V

This would allow Marth with his stupidly FAST FAST FALL SPEED OF TELEPORTATION PROPORTIONS to be cancelled by the db1. Which I'm reasonably sure it does this (i.e. if you fast fall then DB1 you'll stop fast falling). If I'm wrong about this... doh

dancing blade down 3 has IASA frames on cool down. ? Why?

Safe retreat, ability to combo into other moves.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Give him a projectile that comes out of SB, and SB is comes out as fast as dsmash and has less lag than fsmash.

Then give him back 1.5x his sword range of melee and let his taunts speed him up to allow for combo's like fsmash to SB to bair.

Give his throws more damage, like atleast 7%.

Make his jab faster, his utilt kills earlier.

Make his smash attacks be safe on shield.

I think putting less knockback on untippered moves would be nice.

uuummmm......take off his tiara and put some other royal beast jewelry on his head.

EDIT: Dont take his tiara off and give him unlimited tiaras so he doesnt have to wait like link does.

Let his Sword glow like Frodo's does when orcs are near him in LOTR