Marth Guide?

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I'm considering creating a full length marth guide to rival the best of guides in other character specific forums. Now first off I have to say that I'm only an intermediate marth; M2K 4 stocks me, KM 3 stocks me, Husband 3 stocks me, etc. I've beaten one or two good people in tournament, but that's about it. I'd need help from people like Cactuar, Emblem Lord, Husband, M2K, or simply anyone significantly better than me or who knows something useful that I do not. Since Smash is continually evolving, I want my guide to evolve as well. I want new techniques like the recent fast wavedash to ledge drop explained in this guide. I'd like to use this guide as a place to insert all of the new tricks I observe and learn from the east coast pros. The guide should include material useful to all levels of play.

Seeing how most of the guides on smashboards are old and outdated, an up-to-date marth guide would be nice. I've seen good effort on various topics very recently from Emblem Lord and Cactuar, but no one has stepped up to create a whole marth guide (not a good one, anyway). What are your thoughts and opinions?

 

[~Tac~]

I think thats an excellent idea. Theres been alot of concerns on certain matchups, spacing, tactics and other stuff floating around. Most of which the 2 sticky'd guides don't show due to age. With your experience along with the aid of M2K, Cactuar and the others, it'd truly be an inspirational one and maybe even steal some cheap Shieks to switch to Marth. >

Although I'm only a Novice/Intermediate player, I say you should go for it. You have my support.

 

[Cactuar]

I'd like to take this moment to explain something. Creating a guide doesn't do much more than waste your time, and make scrubs think they are good because they can recite knowledge that they can't use. I have spent a lot of time over the past year (granted, I've only actually been playing this game for a little more than a year, but I've got natural talent *flexes*. I'm just kidding, sort of.) creating lengthy explanations on how certain things work with Marth, but despite how much detail I put into those explanations, scrubs will not be able to understand what I'm telling them.

Why, you ask? Because they are scrubs. They spend too much time learning words rather than learning understanding. Who cares if you know how many frames of lag you have when you l-cancel a fair (7). You have to know that kind of thing by feeling.



What I mean to say is: If you are one of those "Well, if I can help just one person..." type of people, go ahead and write a guide. Just understand that most of the people who would actually get what you put into it, don't need the guide anyway.

 

[~Tac~]

I'd like to take this moment to explain something. Creating a guide doesn't do much more than waste your time, and make scrubs think they are good because they can recite knowledge that they can't use. I have spent a lot of time over the past year (granted, I've only actually been playing this game for a little more than a year, but I've got natural talent *flexes*. I'm just kidding, sort of.)

Finger flex? o_O

I've seen some of your matches, and most recently You vs Reik. I'd pay to be your student. xD

Secondly, I kind of agree...at the same time disagree. What I disagree on, is the waste of time part. Even though the scrubs part is true, there's still some who do need a few tips to print the last page of their training book, or put that last staple on their skill. Like me for instance. My wavedash is no more than decent. And I can't L-cancel any better than badly.

Also comes the issue with matchups, tilts, edgeguarding and others.. Your spacing/approaching thread would be an awsome part of a guide, Cactuar.

 

[Nick Nasty]

I agree with Cactuar about how a lot of people will try to get good at the game just by looking at a guide. However, there will be those who will appreciate the time and effort that the person put into the guide and will benefit from it. I think that as long as there are people who honestly want to get better, you will be doing a very commendable thing for this forum. I haven't been to any tournaments or know everything about Marth, but I have been reading your replies to other people's post UBMC. IMO, you seem very knowledgeble when it comes to using Marth and if you feel like creating a new guide, by all means give it your all.

 

[Cactuar]

I'm not trying to dissuade you from creating a guide, I'm just making sure you know what you are getting into before you do it

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

Cactuar, I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with you. I think the guide would be beneficial to both me and others; it would allow me to gather the best of my information and put it down somewhere for reference, and I'm sure it would have beneficial information for at least beginner through intermediate players. Keep in mind however, that 99% of players are not advanced, so I'd be covering most of the people who would read the guide.

Darn you Cactuar, you've only been playing twice as long as me and you can beat M2K in tournament??! I'll have to step it up. I started playing on October 20 of '06 when I got my cube. I'm a little beyond 6 months now.

 

[Cactuar]

Haha. I've never owned a gamecube or smash.

 

[mog87]

whatever happened to that matchup guide that was in the works, that would be more useful i think anyhow, than the general guide.

 

[spoonyd]

Honestly I think it's a great idea. I'm still very much a new player but with a real desire to learn all I can.

Of course there will always be n00bs like myself but I do think that at least some of them really wanna see an improvement in their game even if they never plan to attend a tournament.

As someone already stated UMBC, you seem to have a lot of knowledge to share with people despite your ability to beat top players. This helps the game grow beyond the tournament scene and gives encouragement to local players. As cactaur said, there will always be n00bs and a lot of the reason why is because the good players have SO MUCH experience and years logged. Who isn't a n00b compared to those players? New players just have a HUGE mountain to climb and at least to me, it's extremely overwhelming. It is my opinion that the game has been out for too long for us n00bs to ever catch up to Ken, M2K, and the rest of the top level tournament players but having someone like yourself with the desire to educate and improve the average joe makes the game more enjoyable.

The way I see it, I don't think writing a guide to help new players is ever a waste of time. If anything it might help keep the game going and maybe bring in some new faces to the tourney scene someday.

 

[~Tac~]

Cactuar, I understand where you're coming from, but I disagree with you. I think the guide would be beneficial to both me and others; it would allow me to gather the best of my information and put it down somewhere for reference, and I'm sure it would have beneficial information for at least beginner through intermediate players. Keep in mind however, that 99% of players are not advanced, so I'd be covering most of the people who would read the guide.

Darn you Cactuar, you've only been playing twice as long as me and you can beat M2K in tournament??! I'll have to step it up. I started playing on October 20 of '06 when I got my cube. I'm a little beyond 6 months now.

99% seems like a bit much. xD I'd guess around maybe 85% :X

Cactuar. Your amazing skills frighten me. 6 monthes and you have the skill as if you were playing for 2-3 years. Share the skills with the rest of the class.

 

[Inevitable]

Cactuar is actually related to Marth.............lol j/k.


I really could use a guide, I absolutely don't know anything about Marth except to keep space between your opponet, and to not spam forward smash too much.

 

[meepxzero]

lol @ the general guide saying yoshi is a counter to marth =(

 

[~Tac~]

lol @ the general guide saying yoshi is a counter to marth =(

Ewww...Yoshi. A green lizard with a saddle, clockwork shoes and a frog tongue with an addiction to meth. If it truly counters Marth I might abandon him. >_>

 

[Cactuar]

I've been playing for a little more than a year now.

@Spoonyd: It isn't impossible to catch up. I have made an enormous amount of improvement to my game in just this short period of time. Unfortunately, while most of this is due to my own natural talent, there are also outside elements that most people just don't have access to.

I have had discussions with other people about what it takes to get good fast and my own feelings are this.

To become good at smash (this is not factoring in natural talent, which includes learning/adaption speed, reaction speed, ability to remember and comprehend events which happen to you, etc) you need 3 outside influences.

1) The Pro: You need the pro. You need to be ***** consistently. You need him to show you that you suck, to show you how techniques are supposed to be used, to show you how easily he can exploit every one of your weaknesses, how he can exploit your DI, how he can **** your soul. You need him so that you have a goal.

2) The Peer: You need the peer. You need to be constantly reminded that you need to continue getting better, or the peer will become the pro, leaving you behind. You need him to give you that burning motivation, to keep you engaged in the game, that sense of competition forever maintained because of the scaling abilities of both of you, pitted against one another. This is your main opponent. Love him, for he is the reflection of your abilities, and will be the source of your best improvement.

3) The Scrub: You want the scrub. You want to crush the scrubs spirit. You want to walk all over him, proving that you can defeat an enemy relying completely on technical skill, but that you could also just relax and take them down using strategy. You want the scrub so that, when the Pro and the Peer are both unavailable, you have something with a brain to beat on, to keep you from rusting. And who knows, maybe one day, one of the many Scrubs you have crushed will graduate from his scrub status and become a peer.


Beyond these three things, there is only mindset and will to play. You want to keep a positive attitude, always seeking an opponent that you will lose against. If there is one thing that has helped me get better quickly, it is that I love to lose.

Anyway. Enough ranting.

 

[Inevitable]

Ewww...Yoshi. A green lizard with a saddle, clockwork shoes and a frog tongue with an addiction to meth. If it truly counters Marth I might abandon him. >_>

That is the funniest thing I've ever read in SWF.

I need to sig that.

 

[Imperial Wraith]

It would be great to have more Marth Guides up. I'm sure it would help people who don't have access to Cactaur's 3 Outside influences ( I only have No. 3, and no, they aren't improving), and many other people besides.

 

[Deleted member]

I've been playing for a little more than a year now.

@Spoonyd: It isn't impossible to catch up. I have made an enormous amount of improvement to my game in just this short period of time. Unfortunately, while most of this is due to my own natural talent, there are also outside elements that most people just don't have access to.

I have had discussions with other people about what it takes to get good fast and my own feelings are this.

To become good at smash (this is not factoring in natural talent, which includes learning/adaption speed, reaction speed, ability to remember and comprehend events which happen to you, etc) you need 3 outside influences.

1) The Pro: You need the pro. You need to be ***** consistently. You need him to show you that you suck, to show you how techniques are supposed to be used, to show you how easily he can exploit every one of your weaknesses, how he can exploit your DI, how he can **** your soul. You need him so that you have a goal.

2) The Peer: You need the peer. You need to be constantly reminded that you need to continue getting better, or the peer will become the pro, leaving you behind. You need him to you that burning motivation, to keep you engaged in the game, that sense of competition forever maintained because of the scaling abilities of both of you, pitted against one another. This is your main opponent. Love him, for he is the reflection of your abilities, and will be the source of your best improvement.

3) The Scrub: You want the scrub. You want to crush the scrubs spirit. You want to walk all over him, proving that you can defeat an enemy relying completely on technical skill, but that you could also just relax and take them down using strategy. You want the scrub so that, when the Pro and the Peer are both unavailable, you have something with a brain to beat on, to keep you from rusting. And who knows, maybe one day, one of the many Scrubs you have crushed will graduate from his scrub status and become a peer.


Beyond these three things, there is only mindset and will to play. You want to keep a positive attitude, always seeking an opponent that you will lose against. If there is one thing that has helped me get better quickly, it is that I love to lose.

Anyway. Enough ranting.

You're my peer. I've never losing to you again. Ever. I will counterpick the gayest things I can imagine, spam you to 300% every stock, bite your fingers, swindle your woman, unplug your controller, break your confidence and make you cry and still call you my friend. But I will NEVER lose to you. I would rather destroy the gamecube.

 

[Cactuar]

*thumbs up*

Good attitude.

<3~~~ Mow

 

[Emblem Lord]

D*mn. I wish I was Cactuar's peer. -_-

Ok, time for my serious post. Cactuar and I are both in the same crew and we are friends. So he and I often talk about Marth. Lately we have been talking about the two threads that I created.

I was actually somewhat frustrated because I felt like my threads had good info, but not alot of people seemed to be contributing to it. I wanted those threads to be a aplce for intelligent discussion, but it seemed like other threads were getting more attention even though I felt like my threads were extremely valuable to the Marth community in terms of sharing valuable knowledge.

Cactuar agreed with me. And then he laughed at me. He said to me," Why are you trying to help people so much? Most of them won't be able to understand it and it will be a waste of your time."

I posted those threads because I am the type of person that wants to look out for his community. But I can now see Cactuar point. I have a few other threads I want to make and if those help out the community then that is cool. But I'm mostly doing it now because I have ideas and thoughts that I want to give a voice to.

UMBC Smasher: If you want to make a guide then more power to you.

 

[FrostByte]

Since they're advice threads and don't have much error, there isn't really any room for input either, unless there's a huge change in the way that Marth plays and I don't think we'll be seeing that anytime soon.

You never know, you may have helped 500+ people with those 2 threads. People only need to see it before it starts to take effect.

 

[Husband]

I think there are a few problems with the guide Idea.

- The dumbest people argue anything that is said so what’s the point?
- Marth is EXTREMELY character specific so it’s going to take a long time to write.
- People don’t learn to think outside the box. If I make a comment that says "Down tilt a Samus..." but you happen to be fighting a Samus who loves being in the air and so the Dtilt wont work, people will A) Just keep down tilting because that’s what the guide said to do and B) Will lose because they don’t know how to change up their style and come back and say my advice was ****ty.
- People might add stupid comments that don’t work and will argue when a better person claims that they are wrong. So when a new player tries to read the guide, they wont know what to do since two players are arguing different sides.

I have time to kill at work and I enjoy talking about smash and I know how to teach ****. So if a group of people really wanted me to write some stuff I guess I could write a good amount about Marth vs. Sheik, Peach and Samus. But I don’t want to just write it up and have this whole idea fall through so let me know if this is really going to happen.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I think there are a few problems with the guide Idea.

- The dumbest people argue anything that is said so what’s the point?
- Marth is EXTREMELY character specific so it’s going to take a long time to write.
- People don’t learn to think outside the box. If I make a comment that says "Down tilt a Samus..." but you happen to be fighting a Samus who loves being in the air and so the Dtilt wont work, people will A) Just keep down tilting because that’s what the guide said to do and B) Will lose because they don’t know how to change up their style and come back and say my advice was ****ty.
- People might add stupid comments that don’t work and will argue when a better person claims that they are wrong. So when a new player tries to read the guide, they wont know what to do since two players are arguing different sides.

I have time to kill at work and I enjoy talking about smash and I know how to teach ****. So if a group of people really wanted me to write some stuff I guess I could write a good amount about Marth vs. Sheik, Peach and Samus. But I don’t want to just write it up and have this whole idea fall through so let me know if this is really going to happen.

- I'm targeting this guide to people who want to learn more about marth. They can choose to take the advise given in the guide or to discard it.
- This guide will take a long time to write and be quite lengthy, but at least there will finally be a one stop resource so we don't get a whole bunch of threads asking things covered in the guide.
- I'm devoting part of the guide to being innovative and creative, or thinking "outside the box". However, the problem in the samus dtilt case is the principle is to fight samus in the air and not on the ground because samus can crouch cancel and really mess up marth. Dtilt is simply one of the tools to get a samus who stays on the ground into the air. Before telling people to dtilt samus, it's important to stress why dtilt is effective.
- I know I would definitely benefit from your knowledge on peach/sheik/samus. You should just come over to UMBC one day and discuss it with me in person, then I can put what I learned into the guide.
- Right now I'm going to focus on creating an effective outline. Good things take time, but I'll try to get the ball rolling on this project.

 

[Darkwyveryn]

Like or not but some of us are actually smart about the game and we do understand pretty much everything and can do all the extra stuff so I say get what you can and help what you can.

 

[WhiteOblv]

If there is one thing that has helped me get better quickly, it is that I love to lose.

Hey i like that, i guess ill start loving to lose heh, good post man.

 

[CWolf20]

I am a technical Fox player, but I play Marth in teams (my 2v2 partner hates playing Fox/Fox in teams, I had to go with my #2). I'm only beginning to understand the depths of his matchups. I understand the basics of most of them, but what I'm really wanting is some general advice on his matchups. I really want to get better with Marth. One of the main things I like about him is the lack of having to focus on my tech, and I can spend most of the match studying the opponent.

What I guess I'm really wanting to know is what should I be looking for in a Fox or Falco for openings. Since I play Fox, I rely on controlling the match. With Marth against good Foxs and Falcos I really struggle, because they are usually on the offensive, and I have to rely on getting one good combo off on each of their lives.

I know I could learn this over time, and it takes experience to be able to implement what good players say, but I would really like that leg-up to actually know where to look, and I feel a matchup guide would at least give me a starting point. Obviously, these guides don't mean anything to a beginner or intermediate, but as a reasonably advanced player, I feel that a little bit of advice of what to look for in tough matchups would really help.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I have started on the guide. It is currently at 6 pages... but I'm going for quality rather than quantity.

I am trying to make my guide work in such a way that it goes general then graduates into more in-depth information. For instance, in the stages guide I will give a paragraph or two at the beginning as general information on the stages, and go more in-depth as I discuss each stage's advantages and disadvantages for marth versus each character.

My guide is targeted at players my skill or knowledge level and below. I doubt Husband, Cactuar, EL or anyone truly advanced will look at it and gain much information from it. M2K will probably laugh at it or something, which he can do since he 4 stocks my marth in dittos. =) By the way, I consider myself upper intermediate based on who I have beaten in tourneys from the last 2 or 3 months.

I want to get a rough, completed edition of my guide on-line so people can stop creating useless threads about the Ken combo, sheik countering marth, how to beat X character with marth, why this stage is better, how to do X technique, how to approach, how to combo, etc. I expect I'll have a full version completed by the end of the month.

Currently, these are the included sections of the guide (and are subject to change):

Table of Contents:

I.Introduction
II.Technical Stuff
III.Mind Games
IV.Character Match-ups
V.Stage Guide
VI.Tricks and Super Advanced Techniques
VII. Scenarios
VIII. Becoming Good
IX. Updates

 

[thebluedeath1000]

Good going super smasher, hope it turns out well.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Good job UMBC. Keep it up man, don't slack!

 

[4BDN_Skillz]

-.-.-.-.-

I've been playing for a little more than a year now.

@Spoonyd: It isn't impossible to catch up. I have made an enormous amount of improvement to my game in just this short period of time. Unfortunately, while most of this is due to my own natural talent, there are also outside elements that most people just don't have access to.

I have had discussions with other people about what it takes to get good fast and my own feelings are this.

To become good at smash (this is not factoring in natural talent, which includes learning/adaption speed, reaction speed, ability to remember and comprehend events which happen to you, etc) you need 3 outside influences.

1) The Pro: You need the pro. You need to be ***** consistently. You need him to show you that you suck, to show you how techniques are supposed to be used, to show you how easily he can exploit every one of your weaknesses, how he can exploit your DI, how he can **** your soul. You need him so that you have a goal.

2) The Peer: You need the peer. You need to be constantly reminded that you need to continue getting better, or the peer will become the pro, leaving you behind. You need him to give you that burning motivation, to keep you engaged in the game, that sense of competition forever maintained because of the scaling abilities of both of you, pitted against one another. This is your main opponent. Love him, for he is the reflection of your abilities, and will be the source of your best improvement.

3) The Scrub: You want the scrub. You want to crush the scrubs spirit. You want to walk all over him, proving that you can defeat an enemy relying completely on technical skill, but that you could also just relax and take them down using strategy. You want the scrub so that, when the Pro and the Peer are both unavailable, you have something with a brain to beat on, to keep you from rusting. And who knows, maybe one day, one of the many Scrubs you have crushed will graduate from his scrub status and become a peer.


Beyond these three things, there is only mindset and will to play. You want to keep a positive attitude, always seeking an opponent that you will lose against. If there is one thing that has helped me get better quickly, it is that I love to lose.

Anyway. Enough ranting.

Sounds like words right out of a SSBM handbook. You make me want to continue to play this game and get as good i can get to one day defeat the greats

 

[B-Will]

I was starting to make an effort to gather people for a marth guide (See the sticky at the top "new marth lord overlord" but it never got off the ground.

I think it is a great idea. If you want to go ahead a make a guide, that would be awesome. Otherwise, now that I have free time with school over, I'll try to continue with my idea.

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I was starting to make an effort to gather people for a marth guide (See the sticky at the top "new marth lord overlord" but it never got off the ground.

I think it is a great idea. If you want to go ahead a make a guide, that would be awesome. Otherwise, now that I have free time with school over, I'll try to continue with my idea.

I would suggest that you wait for me to get a rough draft of everything on-line, and then help by telling me about new ideas or techniques to add. Like I mentioned earlier, I'm trying my best to have a completed guide up by the beginning of June. Not that it will be truly complete; I intend to continue modifying and adding things to it.

As a side note, I learned a whole lot of cool stuff at MLG NY to add into the guide

 

[Cactuar]

I totally don't remember seeing you there. I gotta start trying to remember names and faces >.>

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

I totally don't remember seeing you there. I gotta start trying to remember names and faces >.>

It would have helped if I had gotten out of pools. I'll make a point of playing you at Pound 2. Seeing how you beat Husband at Chu's, and that I have yet to beat Husband in a marth ditto, I doubt I'll be much of a challenge - unless I improve a lot between now and June 16.

btw, I had a UMBC sweatshirt or tee-shirt on both days.

 

[JesiahTEG]

How's the guide coming dude?

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

How's the guide coming dude?

I'm in the middle of finals, so school gets first priority.

However, with the influx of boring threads yesterday, I am more motivated to work on the guide some more

By the way, I'm not trying to rush this. I hold a certain standard for anything I put out, so you won't see anything until I think it's good material that will really benefit the community.

 

[knightpraetor]

so my thoughts on a guide..first of all, i want to say to emblem lord and husband..that i do read their posts and look carefully for any information...the post on approaches didn't really teach me any new approaches or things that i didn't know..however, it made me reflect on my own style and conclude that i need more variety..now i try to look carefully to find which approaches work better in what situation and what matchup..and husbands posts on grabs..taught me a few things i think

as for the guide..as a decent player..(you can guess what that means) i have very little interest in posts of more basic technical data in a guide..personally i think those stupid repeat posts will always be there..i made them when i was a total n00b..and even now i make a few stupid posts..because i'm looking for advice or whatnot...but ya..the day that no more "how to double fair "posts are on the boards ...the world will cease to exist.

anyways, so what do i look for when scanning the forums..(just for the record i just went through the 3 pages of forums to see if i could find anything interesting..and i found one interesting technical detail, and no more interesting posts that could actually improve my mind games or understanding of matchups..(i've read most of the posts you guys have made when they come out)...so what i would like to see more of on the forums, is matchups...how to counter specific strategies or approaches that opposing characters may use..and just a discussion of various situations...the thing is that with limited competition..i do not even get to face every matchup..and not every player has the same style...so learning how to adapt by just playing everyone takes forever. When we might at least have a leg up if the pros would describe some of their matches to us.

For example, if an upper level player of any kind took the time to just describe the style of an opposing player and then talk about how he adapts to it..or even just does a scene by scene on one of their matches..then i'd be very interested in reading it..

But as for technical details..i have little interest in memorized combos, except for those that come out of throws..if there was some master post of what i should do to follow up for every di at a given percentage..then i would study it.. at least for the matchups i need it for.

anyways, i appear to be ranting..i'm just thinking..so many people on this forum have information about styles or mindgames that i want...yet i can't read their mind..

but then i don't really contribute to the forums myself..1. i am not qualified 2. my time seems better spent searching for stuff for my own improvement( ie i'm selfish)

anyways, i would appreciate a well done guide.

on a side note..i hope to go to some tourneys next year..i've only been to a few local things and have no real skill..my tech skill is probably rather high..and i ve developed some basic mindgames..but i'm still just a scrub..unfortunately this summer I will be stuyding mostly..with no one to smash with..so i decided to learn to claw to improve my tech skill. But after the summer i'm going to be inviting people over to smash all the time at my apartment

 

[UMBC Super Smasher]

knightpraetor, you hit on the one section that will help me the most as I write this guide - character matchups. I'm going to start off with what I know about all the matchups, then with time critique the guide based off of what I learn and what others tell me.

Also, I do want to have a guide that covers all the stupid newbie posts just so we can say they had somewhere to go before posting. Surely some newbies will read the guide first.

I'm about 10 pages into the guide at this point.

 

[TrueRedemption]

keep up the good work, tough to show appreciation on boards with words, but know you have at least a few eager expectees who are thankful

 

[MookieRah]

From my experience with making guides, it's not a good idea. A lot of what Husband and Cactaur said is true, but that isn't all of it. Most players, if not all, won't learn from a guide, they just gotta do it. I know a lot of players on the boards who talk about punishing mistakes yet they don't hit missed techs and stuff. There is PLENTY of information out there for a scrub marth to learn from, and it's better that he actually puts in the effort to compile it himself and work on it than to see the quick and easy condensed form. It's better to learn things one portion at a time than all at once.