Mario Questions and Answers; Ask here first!

[Jimmyfosho]

I was always under the impression that yoshi nair ***** sheik's ftilt shenanigans.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yoshi has insane speed, fast aerials (nair hits hard and fast plus messes with sheik's stuff, uair kills and has a disjoint, bair combos like a mofo, all of these have pretty much no lag even when not autocanceled), an air grab, DJ armor, DJ cancel, amazing wavebouncing, etc. Yoshi can in fact jump a lot in this MU, but I dont mean literally jump wherever, cuz even Ganon can force you to stay out of certain areas. Of course Sheik does limit this, but i just mean it's not so much that we cant jump at all. Yoshi can jump pretty much as much as he likes in this MU just so much that he's not committing at the wrong times/going out too much and being a dumb*** about it lol. But really, Yoshi can empty shorthop all day against sheik as long as he knows what to watch for.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wrong A2, Yoshi can jump all he wants against Sheik

MK can too

I don't know where you get this idea. MK has the best air game in the entire game but he clearly HATES being in the air against Sheik.

She has some of the best horizontal and vertical mobility in the entire game, and her aerials **** airdodge. And if she wants to play it safe, needles are FREE DAMAGE ALL DAY if you jump. Best landtrap projectile in the game easily. Chain is also underrated as a wall. The move outdisjoints practically everything.

And her grab is pretty good. Both in terms of application and setup potential. Jumping against Sheik sucks. She outmaneuvers you easily and she can trap landings safely all the time for free damage, and she's also difficult to react to if she chooses to be aggressive when you jump.

Vanish is SUPER gay when approaching Sheik. Again it's one of those things she can do that's retardedly safe and good at punishing you if you commit to jumping and approaching her that way. Especially since it can kill you, and she can even use it to juggle thanks to the ridiculous invincibility.

Why you would jump against Sheik as Yoshi I don't get. She outranges Yoshi in the air just fine, has more than enough run speed to keep away from him, and needles as usual are gay.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Usually I dont jump against Sheik a lot as their are better options, but when you get in her face, his SH options added with his close quarters mix up game can do wonders.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Getting in range to poke Sheik closeup is a different story and as long as you're doing it in the context of pressuring her, it's okay. But jumping against Sheik outside of that is a poor idea. You NEVER want to be jumping when this character is in a neutral stance, since given the time to react, she has the best options in the game to punish you for jumping.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Oh, k, I see what you mean now, I thought you meant NEVER jump lol. Then yeah you're right, for the most part you wanna stay grounded when you're both trying to set something up.

 

[Coolwhip]

I don't know where you get this idea. MK has the best air game in the entire game but he clearly HATES being in the air against Sheik.

She has some of the best horizontal and vertical mobility in the entire game, and her aerials **** airdodge. And if she wants to play it safe, needles are FREE DAMAGE ALL DAY if you jump. Best landtrap projectile in the game easily. Chain is also underrated as a wall. The move outdisjoints practically everything.

And her grab is pretty good. Both in terms of application and setup potential. Jumping against Sheik sucks. She outmaneuvers you easily and she can trap landings safely all the time for free damage, and she's also difficult to react to if she chooses to be aggressive when you jump.

Vanish is SUPER gay when approaching Sheik. Again it's one of those things she can do that's retardedly safe and good at punishing you if you commit to jumping and approaching her that way. Especially since it can kill you, and she can even use it to juggle thanks to the ridiculous invincibility.

Why you would jump against Sheik as Yoshi I don't get. She outranges Yoshi in the air just fine, has more than enough run speed to keep away from him, and needles as usual are gay.

^ I'm with him. 500 post?! yay lol

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

Well I haven't played too many sheiks, but I do know that its best for her to approach you cuz if you are just running in with no reason what so ever she'll ftilt you to grab all day. Its best to spam fireballs when far away but watch out for the needles they can be really annoying. Also her recovery is very abismal especially when you are frame refreshing on the ledge. But don't get in too over your head cuz her aerials and needles pretty much **** Mario especially when Mario needs to recover in a horizontal position. Sorry if I am babbling

 

[Judo777]

*appears from the shadows*

I mean Yoshi can be above sheik a little safer than most other characters but to be honest no character in the game really wants to be above sheik. Best vertical speed in the game (at least via double jump falco wins the full hop contest) means sheik can get up to you pretty freaking fast. Even more so tho Yoshi doesn't have any really safe ways to land against Sheik aside from going to a platform. He doesn't have very good aerials that hit below him and he can't out run a grounded Sheik through the air even with B reverses. He can't really mix up his timing very well either due to egg toss being VERY unsafe.

So Yoshi can be above people better than alot of other characters (due simply to air speed and the ability to reverse momentum and possibly heavy armor something) but being above your opponent in this game is just bad in general (unless you MK or Wario lol).

Also people having good options out of ftilt isn't THAT big of a deal. Yea if we mess up nair hurts but Sheik shouldn't be messing up. If we can get 3 ftilts on marth with frame 1 garbage I'm not worried about frame 3.

*disappears back into the shadows*

 

[steep]

What do you practice on? Training mode? Lvl 7 cpu? Lvl 3 cpu?

@A2: Please answer this. :D

 

[A2ZOMG]

@A2: Please answer this. :D

I'm not really into training against CPUs. The best way to improve is to practice technical execution against real players, but if you don't have real players, just practicing in training mode is more practical imo. Most of the stuff I listed doesn't require a moving target to train.

 

[steep]

^^ Ok thank you!!!!

 

[Matador]

I didn't realize that upB wasn't invincible on start-up...

That explains sooooooo much.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

Yeah thats why its so useful for mach tornado and stuff.

 

[steep]

Yeah thats why its so useful for mach tornado and stuff.

He said he didn't realize it WASN'T invincible on startup.... That's why it actually doesn't always beat mach tornado, etc.... Although it's still a viable option if spaced well.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

He said he didn't realize it WASN'T invincible on startup.... That's why it actually doesn't always beat mach tornado, etc.... Although it's still a viable option if spaced well.

Ahhh I read it wrong. But more then half of the time up B works, for me at least.

 

[Matador]

Yeah thats why its so useful for mach tornado and stuff.

Yeah, it loses to it all the time for me. The only way it works is if you time it so that you upB between hits of mach tornado on your shield.

So if you do that regularly, pat yourself on the back for the sake of awesome, lol.

I was wondering why ALL the time I would find myself being hit when I upB OOS. I figured I was invincible the entire way through until my hitbox was out, but apparently there's 3 frames of vulnerability that my opponent is JUST EPIC ENOUGH to hit me during.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

Seriously? I had no idea. This is why I need to on here though xD.
but wow I do it like 3/4's of the time I had no idea O_o.

 

[steep]

It also depends how well the MK spaces on your shield right? The only way to hit him out of nado is to hit MK himself, and not hit the tornado's hitboxes. So if he pressures you but stays away from being to close to you.... Well, I don't think up b could work then. Maybe i'm wrong though.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

It also depends how well the MK spaces on your shield right? The only way to hit him out of nado is to hit MK himself, and not hit the tornado's hitboxes. So if he pressures you but stays away from being to close to you.... Well, I don't think up b could work then. Maybe i'm wrong though.

Hmmmmm I don't know really either you could be right though cuz sometimes when I do Up B to Mach Tornado they both get canceled out so maybe you have
to hit the core (MK)

 

[fromundaman]

So if you do that regularly, pat yourself on the back for the sake of awesome, lol.

I must be awesome.

Seriously though, it's not that hard to utilize still so long as you keep in mind that it's ALMOST invincible on startup (AKA React as soon as something hits your shield/So long as a hitbox isn't on top of you when you use it, you should be good).



Steep's right though, if they space well, you're ****ed. Then again, you should expect getting ****ed the moment you picked Mario against MK.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

It also depends how well the MK spaces on your shield right? The only way to hit him out of nado is to hit MK himself, and not hit the tornado's hitboxes. So if he pressures you but stays away from being to close to you.... Well, I don't think up b could work then. Maybe i'm wrong though.

Hey Steep, I think this should answer your question I did a little test. I did it both on the inside and outside so watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn0Ise_-jDs

Also your right about the Nado Spacing thing but I doubt any MK
would even bother to learn Mario MU, that is until we pwn them


Also if anyone has a question I would be happy to test it out and put it on YT for all
Mario mains to see

 

[fromundaman]

Also your right about the Nado Spacing thing but I doubt any MK
would even bother to learn Mario MU, that is until we pwn them

So basically MKs will never learn the Mario MU?

 

[Matador]

I'm getting better at it...

I think Fludd helps a ton in this match-up. That, and running away. And SH nair.

It's a weird match-up...but as long as you don't get gimped, or shuttlelooped super early, I think it's doable.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah. Up-B oos is inconsistent at hitting MK out of Nado.

However, if I calculated my numbers right, Up-B is a safe Jab cancel followup on Marth players that buffer Up-B all day. Assuming both of you are buffering your moves, you'll be invincible when Marth's Up-B is active assuming you are comboing him after the sweetspot of Jab2.

 

[Omari]

Granted, people have their own way of learning/improving. I do my best to empathize so it'll be simpler to understand "why" (reasoning). Lately, I've been busy but I do my best to attend tournaments for multiple games (including smash) when I can (take from an experienced gamer).

Regarding good characters: When I first became a competitive gamer, a big mistake for me was only being concerned with characters I wanted to use.

There's nothing wrong with wanted to know as much as possible about your character but you have to ask yourself, "will learning bad characters (what they can't do) help me improve at a faster rate opposed to learning better ones (what they can do)"? As a clever smasher explained to me early on (Z), you'll truly understand what bad characters can't do when understand what good characters can do. Yes, this seems simple at first but he means that you'll begin to think more outside the box when you're playing a bad character now. You'll now understand what can be countered (reacted) easily & what can't (basically understanding what works being aggressive/aggro in a sense).

Honestly, I'm all round competitive gamer but I find myself focused on understanding frame data (aside from reading the instruction booklet) when a new game first comes out. frame data alone helps me understand "why".

Reason I mention why is because the first time around, many players (no offense to any competitive gamer) don't understand why they do what they do (even myself early on).

Mario's jab for example: According to Bobson's frame data, Mario's jab hits on frame 2 (not in 2 frames, big difference). The shield stun (attacking an opponent with jab during them shielding) is 2 frames. Finally the jab recovers (ends) on frame 15 (after this frame, another action becomes available).

*Just from the hit data alone we already know the start up (how many frames it takes for the hit box(es) to become active (able to hit)) data. Mario's jab start up is 1 frame since the hit box becomes active on frame 2.

The formula after reviewing his thread several times I found to be recovery/end (15) - (hit (2) + shield stun (2)) = frame advantage/disadvantage (-11). -11 means your opponent has 11 frames to react until you're able to perform another action. Generally, you want your disadvantage (preventing pressure/getting punished) as low as possible & your advantage as high as possible (keeping pressure).

Being that Mario's jab has the lowest disadvantage (decent range, etc) we can come to the conclusion that it's the most safe ground attack to stick out. Number Crunching as I love to call it, helps me understand which move(s) are & aren't safe to stick out. My reason for wanting to know/understand this is because I'd (all gamers I'm hoping) like to go with the tactic risk-free/most-damaging reward.

Many times, I've seen smashers get easily read/punished/killed doing certain actions "jus cuz" (they saw someone else do it & it "looked" cool) not asking themselves "why" instead. Most outcomes have a reason for happening so my point to anyone reading is to know/understand why you're doing what you're doing. The "what" helps but only a portion. Don't be afraid to ask questions either (how will you ever get a lead (answer) if you never ask?).

Hypothetically, let's say we also take into account spacing & another fire ball. Using the fire ball frame data + the jab data, how do we know our advantage + the options we shut down for our opponent(s)? Yes, I'm asking all Mario mains.

 

[fromundaman]

Yeah. Up-B oos is inconsistent at hitting MK out of Nado.

However, if I calculated my numbers right, Up-B is a safe Jab cancel followup on Marth players that buffer Up-B all day. Assuming both of you are buffering your moves, you'll be invincible when Marth's Up-B is active assuming you are comboing him after the sweetspot of Jab2.

Isn't Marth's UpB invincible frame 1 and ours not?

 

[JuxtaposeX]

From what I understood, Marth's invincibility frames activate first, but not hitboxes? So, our upb, being slower, pretty much waits out his invincible frames then hits him?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Kinda like that.

Mario's first two Jab hits are -2 on hit on most characters if you do not continue to the final hit (this is in terms of raw hitstun, not accounting for hard landing lag or airtime). If you both buffer Up-B in this situation, you will start your Up-B 2 frames after he does, and by the time he reaches his 5th frame, you will reach your 3rd which is a moment you are both invincible. On his 6th and your 4th frame, you will be invincible and hitting him when he's not invincible.

 

[Coolwhip]

Hey, i have a question.

Fighting marth on rainbow cruz.....Good idea?
Does mario have an advantage against him on that stage?

 

[fromundaman]

IDK for sure, but I would think not. I would assume his aerials would dominate us on that stage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's better than fighting him on Battlefield if you ask me. RC is a more player dependent stage than most. So long as you're not Bowser and so long as you're not going up against MK or G&W on that stage, you can pretty much do whatever the **** you want on that stage.

 

[fromundaman]

Better than BF? Oh hell yeah. There's no doubt there.

However wouldn't like 70% of all other legal stages be better?

 

[JuxtaposeX]

It's better than fighting him on Battlefield if you ask me. RC is a more player dependent stage than most. So long as you're not Bowser and so long as you're not going up against MK or G&W on that stage, you can pretty much do whatever the **** you want on that stage.

Rainbow Cruise is Bowser's best stage...

 

[steep]

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH I just had the best game ever!!!!! I took a Marth player to Brinstar and cape ***** him at 91 after the hit for the kill off the acid first stock..... and then i proceeded to thoroughly outplay him and i was gonna save it but it was a 3 MINUTE 1 SECOND MATCH!!!!!

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

 

[Cezz624]

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH I just had the best game ever!!!!! I took a Marth player to Brinstar and cape ***** him at 91 after the hit for the kill off the acid first stock..... and then i proceeded to thoroughly outplay him and i was gonna save it but it was a 3 MINUTE 1 SECOND MATCH!!!!!

AAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

And that's why I always use the infinite replay hack.

 

[steep]

And that's why I always use the infinite replay hack.

What site/guide did you use to figure out how to get the infinite replay hack set up on an SD card? I already have Homebrew.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Are you using Gecko to launch your hacks?

 

[steep]

Yes Xero I am. Why?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I will compile you a gct with all the hacks you need on it. What hacks do you want?