Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[Ultimastrike]

That's just straight up wrong. In literally any other situation, doing something game breaking by accident would still be ruled as a forfeit. Getting stuck in an unreachable area by accident would still cost you the game. Causing a crash by accident would still cost you the game. Becoming invincible by accident would still cost you the game. So, yes, doing this glitch by accident could be ruled as a forfeit without compromising the consistency of our ruleset.

It's probably better off to straight out ban Diddy until this is fixed, because the bug itself is consistently game-breaking against characters that have multi-hit attacks, and that's a good amount of the cast(hell, it'd even be good against Sheik's powerful grab game). Not to mention that most players will be pressured to shield against those multi-hit attacks to prevent damage.

 

[GeneralLedge]

So, yes, doing this glitch by accident could be ruled as a forfeit without compromising the consistency of our ruleset.

Meaning, per chance, nobody will deliberately play as Diddy, or else they risk doing it by accident and forfeiting the match.

Either method is a ban; one is simply more honest.

Another thing I've seen mentioned somewhere, but I don't recall reading here, is Mewtwo's teleport no longer bounces off of solid walls, and instead climbs them like... Well, most other upB's do.

 

[JoyStrawberry]

Yeah, it's been a well-known quirk of the stage; it's the only Omega with walls that disallows wall-jumps, despite non-Omega Kalos allowing them.

Well, that's odd, I suppose I must have confused the original with the omega somehow. I must look a right idiot.

 

[BSP]

Yeah, it's been a well-known quirk of the stage; it's the only Omega with walls that disallows wall-jumps, despite non-Omega Kalos allowing them.

Omega Pac-Land doesn't let you wall jump either

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Finished with Dark Pit's frames. I'll go through Roy next since I've been seeing a lot of questions in regards to how exactly the new shield changes affect him.

 

[Volya]

Yo guys, i just figured out that Villager's Up B might be nerfed.
Check this out :https://youtu.be/eQO2OSqYdW4
Notice that the first up b is exactly identical, while the second one is way shorter than before.
You should check vil's upb data just in case !

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yo guys, i just figured out that Villager's Up B might be nerfed.
Check this out :https://youtu.be/eQO2OSqYdW4
Notice that the first up b is exactly identical, while the second one is way shorter than before.
You should check vil's upb data just in case !

So now the question is, does grabbing the ledge reset this at all?

 

[Volya]

So now the question is, does grabbing the ledge reset this at all?

No. For example if you up b a first time for a long distance, grab the ledge, but get edgeguarded by the opponent and fly pretty fly away (let's say offscreen), you might not be able to up b long enough to go back on the stage.
It's pretty similar to how Rob's up b works now, except we don't need to be on the ground to recharge our helium.(not totally sure about this tho)

 

[AuraShaman]

Hey, I don't really know how to properly present this, so please don't infraction me on this one; but it feels like the end lag in's jab has increased by at least two frames maximum. Again, don't know how to properly provide my evidence, and thus is my first time contributing, so please take my analysis with a grain of salt for now.

 

[I AKU I]

Sheik safety now

Attack Name            Full Action    Auto Cancel    Landing
Neutral Air Sweet    [-36,-39]        [-19,-22]    -3
Neutral Air Sour    [-14,-37]        [3,-20]    -5
Forward Air        [-22,-24]        [0,-2]    -5
Back Air1        [-24,-26]        [-19,-21]    -5
Back Air2        [-18,-25]        [-13,-20]    -7
Up Air             [-14,-15]        [-19,-20]    -16
Down Air1        [-16,-34]        [-16,-34]    -25
Down Air2        [-19,-20]

First off, thank you very much for posting this. I started to bring up the implications of your data on the Sheik boards, but I'm also starting to doubt the accuracy of your calculations for fair. I think there should be two data sets for fair because the move has a sour spot that deals less damage.

Granted the 0.7% difference would only skew your results by 1 frame max, but this difference has important implications on other characters' ability to shield grab Sheik if she mis-spaces her fairs.

 

[Dogmaster]

Yo guys, i just figured out that Villager's Up B might be nerfed.
Check this out :https://youtu.be/eQO2OSqYdW4
Notice that the first up b is exactly identical, while the second one is way shorter than before.
You should check vil's upb data just in case !

This fuel mechanic was introduced to villager some two or three patches ago

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Hey, I don't really know how to properly present this, so please don't infraction me on this one; but it feels like the end lag in's jab has increased by at least two frames maximum. Again, don't know how to properly provide my evidence, and thus is my first time contributing, so please take my analysis with a grain of salt for now.

Roy's jab has not been changed. It's still 22 frames total.

 

[Volya]

This fuel mechanic was introduced to villager some two or three patches ago

No, This mechanic was always here since the first demo of the game. It's just way more noticeable since the previous "minor" nerf they did on it. But they decided to nerf it again, and this time it's really important.

 

[neohopeSTF]

That's just straight up wrong. In literally any other situation, doing something game breaking by accident would still be ruled as a forfeit. Getting stuck in an unreachable area by accident would still cost you the game. Causing a crash by accident would still cost you the game. Becoming invincible by accident would still cost you the game. So, yes, doing this glitch by accident could be ruled as a forfeit without compromising the consistency of our ruleset.

Most stages that you can get stuck in are banned. This is something that can happen on any stage at any point during the match, just ban Diddy until its fixed.

 

[FullMoon]

@Thinkaman A question: you list of projectiles mentions that Shuriken #3 is safer with the increased shieldstun, but you mentioned that it was uncharged. Shifting Shuriken can't exactly be charged, it just depends on how you press the button. So did only the slow variant get buffed or was it both of them?

 

[Runic_SSB]

Meaning, per chance, nobody will deliberately play as Diddy, or else they risk doing it by accident and forfeiting the match.

Either method is a ban; one is simply more honest.

You're right. Even if I get my way, Diddy would never be used, so either way it has the same effect. I just don't want any more bad publicity for the poor monkey. A scary amount of people still think he's OP just because we said so 6 months ago, banning him would just make it worse.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Finished with Roy. The general consensus: he's safer on everything. Much safer on sweetspots, and all of his sourspots are at least one frame safer. The exception is n-air, which got 2 frames worse on both sourspots.

If you want to see his numbers before, here's Roy's 1.10 frame data.

 

[ThatZooooooooo]

I don't know if this belongs here, but my friends and I found an interesting quark on Omega Pirate Ship.

As of 1.0.4, a sacrificial KO using the flying slam (Bowsercide) has KOed Bowser first. But, for some reason on Omega Pirate Ship, the Bowsercide results in both Bowser and the victim being KOed simultaneously, thus initiating Sudden Death if Bowser and the victim are on their last stocks.

I don't have the means to capture and upload footage, but we have tested this multiple times and so far it has always gone into Sudden Death.

We haven't tried it on every stage, but we've only gotten it to work on Omega Pirate Ship so far.

 

[Virum]

It's a shame that Roy's tippers are now no longer have frame advantage on block over his sweetspots. That was their prime utility previously but now barring tipper UAir at high percents they just serve as inferior hitboxes.

 

[Runic_SSB]

Finished with Roy. The general consensus: he's safer on everything. Much safer on sweetspots, and all of his sourspots are at least one frame safer. The exception is n-air, which got 2 frames worse on both sourspots.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's a shame that Roy's tippers are now no longer have frame advantage on block over his sweetspots. That was their prime utility previously but now barring tipper UAir at high percents they just serve as inferior hitboxes.

I don't play Roy but I'm indifferent because they're supposed to be inferior hitboxes.

Plus they still combo into other moves so w/e

 

[SonDeathEater]

Has Fox's lasers always able to hit Wii Fit trainer's ball back at her?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Also finished Pit's frame data. To no one's surprise, his frame data is almost exactly the same as Dark Pit's.

These are the only differences:

1. Dark Pit's Arrows are 2 frames safer on shield than Pit's (min charge and max charge), but Pit's last longer.
2. Dark Pit's Piercing Arrows are 1 frame safer on shield than Pit's (min charge and max charge), but Pit's last longer.
3. Pit's Guiding Arrows are 1 frame better on shield than Dark Pit's at minimum charge, but Dark Pit's Guiding Arrows are 1 frame better on shield than Pit's at max charge. Pit's Guiding Arrows also last longer than Dark Pit's.
4. Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm and it's variants all have higher hitlag than Pit's Upperdash Arm. However, they have the same frame advantage.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't know if this belongs here, but my friends and I found an interesting quark on Omega Pirate Ship.

As of 1.0.4, a sacrificial KO using the flying slam (Bowsercide) has KOed Bowser first. But, for some reason on Omega Pirate Ship, the Bowsercide results in both Bowser and the victim being KOed simultaneously, thus initiating Sudden Death if Bowser and the victim are on their last stocks.

I don't have the means to capture and upload footage, but we have tested this multiple times and so far it has always gone into Sudden Death.

We haven't tried it on every stage, but we've only gotten it to work on Omega Pirate Ship so far.

Bowsercide is bugged. You can get bits and pieces of the full info from Bowser mains, but it's largely unknown how the game decides a verdict - both characters die first or Bowser dies first. All we know for sure is that the only way to get a consistent verdict is to grab from the same "ground" on each stage. For instance, grabbing from the ground on FD always kills both characters simultaneously, but grabbing from any position that is not the ground could go either way. We have our lists of stage verdicts, but more often than not, Bowser dies first, and there isn't anything special Bowser could do to change the verdict.

The truth is, the development team cannot seem to fix this glitch. Since it came as their fix to the Flying Man Glitch. Instead, they have given Bowser more control over Flying Slam as a way for Bowsers to not be taken over the edge by the victim unless they have a massive damage difference. You can find more info here.

 

[ThatZooooooooo]

Bowsercide is bugged. You can get bits and pieces of the full info from Bowser mains, but it's largely unknown how the game decides a verdict - both characters die first or Bowser dies first. All we know for sure is that the only way to get a consistent verdict is to grab from the same "ground" on each stage. For instance, grabbing from the ground on FD always kills both characters simultaneously, but grabbing from any position that is not the ground could go either way. We have our lists of stage verdicts, but more often than not, Bowser dies first, and there isn't anything special Bowser could do to change the verdict.

The truth is, the development team cannot seem to fix this glitch. Since it came as their fix to the Flying Man Glitch. Instead, they have given Bowser more control over Flying Slam as a way for Bowsers to not be taken over the edge by the victim unless they have a massive damage difference. You can find more info here.

Ah, OK, thanks for the information! I didn't know Bowsercide was bugged.

 

[FUEGO!]

Re-confirming that Lucas got a huge indirect buff now that all of his neutral options are safe on shield. He can now perform his aerials safely as shield pressure much like he could in PM.

 

[V4n1sh]

I think luigi's Uair seems to hit at a different angle, may be placebo

 

[Apeirohaon]

Alright so are we sure of the back/forward roll changes? they have a question mark in the OP

i'm using this: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/144-to-160/character
and this: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Character

It's kind of confusing. ESCAPEB matches up with the back/forward roll frame data we already have/had on forward rolls and back rolls, and the value changed was the last frame of intangibility. So that part seems pretty clear imo

However, ESCAPEAIR doesn't match up to air dodges. The FAF and first intangible frame match up, but the last intangible frame doesn't. Could Kurogane's data be wrong?

also back rolls and forward rolls have/had the same frame data last patch

 

[LordWilliam1234]

And to round out the FE clone trio, I have Lucina.

The verdict...isn't good. The patch of course made her safer, but she's even worse compared to Marth now. All of her normals, except for f-tilt, are only as safe as Marth's sourspots (and f-tilt is only as safe as Marth's tipper f-tilt). In a couple instances it's a bit safer than Marth's sourspots but it's still less safe than Marth's tippers now.

 

[Boney]

And to round out the FE clone trio, I have Lucina.

The verdict...isn't good. The patch of course made her safer, but she's even worse compared to Marth now. All of her normals, except for f-tilt, are only as safe as Marth's sourspots (and f-tilt is only as safe as Marth's tipper f-tilt). In a couple instances it's a bit safer than Marth's sourspots but it's still less safe than Marth's tippers now.

I think she was less safe than Marth sourspots before so... Yay?

 

[LordWilliam1234]

I think she was less safe than Marth sourspots before so... Yay?

She was, but she was safer than Marth was on his tippers. Now she isn't, so she lost the one main advantage she had over him.

 

[Shaya]

First off, thank you very much for posting this. I started to bring up the implications of your data on the Sheik boards, but I'm also starting to doubt the accuracy of your calculations for fair. I think there should be two data sets for fair because the move has a sour spot that deals less damage.

Granted the 0.7% difference would only skew your results by 1 frame max, but this difference has important implications on other characters' ability to shield grab Sheik if she mis-spaces her fairs.

there is no less shield stun from going from 5.0% to 4.3%, hence no extra clarification.
I'm not going to have a line for literally every single hitbox, it's mostly redundant, and will send my insanity over the edge.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Alright so are we sure of the back/forward roll changes? they have a question mark in the OP

i'm using this: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/144-to-160/character
and this: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Character

It's kind of confusing. ESCAPEB matches up with the back/forward roll frame data we already have/had on forward rolls and back rolls, and the value changed was the last frame of intangibility. So that part seems pretty clear imo

However, ESCAPEAIR doesn't match up to air dodges. The FAF and first intangible frame match up, but the last intangible frame doesn't. Could Kurogane's data be wrong?

also back rolls and forward rolls have/had the same frame data last patch

Yes, they're forward and back rolls. I tested it last night and am updating characters in alphabetical order. Bowser through to Dark Pit are on 1.1.1.

My data isn't wrong, it's probably some sort of dump oddity/error.

 

[I AKU I]

Fair enough. I just assumed the worst and thought that maybe you were unaware of the difference. And yeah, I crunched it out myself just now and the extra 0.7% doesn't bring the frame disadvantage down to 6. (5.9). So you were right that it didn't make a difference in the first place.

Sorry for doubting you

 

[Eureka]

I have to wonder if the hitlag on moves was originally a factor in balancing them, or at least was known that higher hitlag made moves less safe on shield and was accounted for. I say this because if high hitlag moves being more unsafe was an unintended consequence then they would have equalized hit lag and shield lag last patch instead of making high hitlag moves safer, but still not as safe as moves with hitlag modifiers of one or less. Considering some of the craziness equalizing hit lag and shield lag has lead to (isn't ZZS nair something like +10 now? O_o) I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I bet everything Ryu has is safe on shield. The higher hitlag modifiers were the only things making anything he did punishable.

 

[ThatAintFalcon]

So wario.
I cant seem to remember but if you rode the bike offstage and you flash yellow you get another bike yes? But if you ride that bike and touch the ground you cant jump off and spawn another one. Was this always the case? Or did they nerf spamming bike

Actually, that is because the bike was spawned in the air and cannot be respawned until wario's feet touch the ground. This was always true and happens even whithout first riding the bike off the stage.

 

[Ffamran]

Has Fox's lasers always able to hit Wii Fit trainer's ball back at her?

No? I'm pretty sure no since his default Blaster has no knockback whatsoever, so there should be no reason for it to do any knockback on anything.

 

[theyellowflash26]

Omega Pac-Land doesn't let you wall jump either

To be fair, regular Pac Land doesn't let you wall jump either

Re-confirming that Lucas got a huge indirect buff now that all of his neutral options are safe on shield. He can now perform his aerials safely as shield pressure much like he could in PM.

How safe is he? Is it enough to not get punished if spaced?

 

[FUEGO!]

To be fair, regular Pac Land doesn't let you wall jump either



How safe is he? Is it enough to not get punished if spaced?

Well the best way I can explain it is that you can attack shields with aerials and then follow-up instead of having to read an opening. He's just one of the characters who had a lot of trouble playing aggressive because he had no options besides Pk fire and Zair that were safe on shield, and even those weren't very good, so his neutral was awful and I felt he was not viable because of it.

NOW, i'm doing the same aggressive fast fall aerial heavy style I wanted to play (reminiscent of how I play him in PM) and I don't get punished even half as much as before. To be honest, it's reallly hard to explain unless you tried to get him to tournament level before the patch, because talking to other Lucas players, I can just mention this issue as his "biggest flaw in design", in that pre-patch, playing him aggressively was brain dead easy to punish, but his is no longer an issue.