Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[Xygonn]

Could someone help explain why Yoshi's Dair locks people in their shields while Mega Man's Usmash doesn't?

Usmash is a 4 frame loop. yoshi's dair is 2 frame loop.

 

[Thundering TNT]

I don't know if thos is already known, or if it has even been in in previous patches, but my brother and I were playing earlier, and he went lucario, and i somehow managed to break out of his side b when he grabbed me. This has never happened to me pre-patch, so we went into training to test it, and sure enough, you can mash out. Just thought I'd share this in case it's new.

 

[LRodC]

How is Zelda's side smash affected by the shield changes? Is it safe on shield like Yoshi's down air or are the attack loops too spaced out for it to be safe?

 

[GP2]

I love this entire argument.

"Making shields better would make the game even more campy! Everyone will just sit in shield"

"Making shields worse is going to make the game even more campy! Everyone will camp even more because they can't just shield!"

Yeah I'm honestly confused because people say it's campy either way. I'm against the shield stun because they put way too much and the things people have been doing with link and lucario are RIDICULOUS!!!!

True because before the patch >>unsafe<< pressure options against a BETTER shield was much better right? Also further stiftle the meta into safe pressure? So unsafe pressure was the metagame until now, that sounds really stupid

(Special Note: If the nerf of the defensive options is indeed a bad thing, would you mind explain, as you call it bad for the game, not the competitive metagame, no for the WHOLE GAME , WHY having the "OP Shield" is better than not having it?

The shield was a great option but I wouldn't say it was OP. And even if it was OP they made it useless now so everyone is just gonna all out attack or camp. Also you know he meant the competitive metagame give him a break.

 

[Sorichuudo]

Usmash is a 4 frame loop. yoshi's dair is 2 frame loop.

As someone who knows next to nothing about this stuff, what does that means?
Like, what is a frame loop and why is a frame loop of 4 not fast enough to lock people in shields?

 

[neohopeSTF]

People are immensely over hyping the change, shield doesn't become unviable. Its just not as great as it was before.

 

[Linkshot]

I'm really really excited for how these shield changes will play out mostly because I don't think they'll be permanent. They're gonna get toned down in the next patch, probably, so for a couple months, we get to play like it's almost Smash 64, without worrying the game will permanently devolve into whoever has the best way to lock somebody in shield.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't know if thos is already known, or if it has even been in in previous patches, but my brother and I were playing earlier, and he went lucario, and i somehow managed to break out of his side b when he grabbed me. This has never happened to me pre-patch, so we went into training to test it, and sure enough, you can mash out. Just thought I'd share this in case it's new.

You could always do that with good enough mashing. Like with those inhuman level 9 CPUs. They consistently break free when grabbed at 0%.

 

[White_Pointer]

So it seems the majority of the balance updates have been to custom moves. That seems...an odd decision.

I'm happy that Samus has finally been shown a bit of love, even though the only meaningful change is the increased hitbox on her nair. She really needed her nair to come out faster, but baby steps I guess. I have no idea why they altered her up b angle, that doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[Xygonn]

As someone who knows next to nothing about this stuff, what does that means?
Like, what is a frame loop and why is a frame loop of 4 not fast enough to lock people in shields?

Minimum shields done is to frame Sona to frame loop you can't let go shield before the Sun is over in a four frame loop you can let go go before the next hit box comes out

So it seems the majority of the balance updates have been to custom moves. That seems...an odd decision.

I'm happy that Samus has finally been shown a bit of love, even though the only meaningful change is the increased hitbox on her nair. She really needed her nair to come out faster, but baby steps I guess. I have no idea why they altered her up b angle, that doesn't make any sense to me.

It should link better with the new knockback an angle than it did before people should fly out of it less

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Shields are weird in that they are a global aspect. Besides a few characters such as Jiggs, everyone's shield is the same. Therefore, changes to the shield change the way the game is played...obviously. But regardless of how the shield is changed, it doesn't have much to do with camping, which is a strategy as opposed to a mechanic. Therefore, let's look how changing the shield affects the game from a mechanical standpoint.


Less shieldstun = Shields are more effective being used as an approaching option and retreating option. Less shieldstun makes run up shield and OoS options more effective. Since these benefit all characters, this means that characters that rely on their shields as an approaching option and characters with amazing OoS options are going to recieve the most benefit from a metagame with low shieldstun.

More shieldstun = Obviously, shields aren't as safe anymore. In contrast to the above, run up shield and OoS options are less effective. Therefore, shields being used as an approaching and retreating option is less effective. So, this is simple enough to understand.

So, we figured out what changing the shield does in regards to shieldstun. But what does it do in a more broad spectrum? The main factor we can draw from this is time. And the more time it takes for something to work, the less valuable of an option it is, and it's ability to lead into other options is reduced.


Now here's the kicker: Characters with high mobility win no matter what type of shieldstun is being employed. Because not only do these characters have high mobility, but they typically also have amazing OoS options to boot. In other words, it's a catch 22. In a metagame with less shieldstun, they can capitalize upon their OoS options against characters that try to attack them, and they can utilize run up shield just like how any other character could. But in a metagame with more shieldstun, although they lose out slightly in regards to OoS options and run up shield, they didn't need those options as much as other characters to begin with. They still have their mobility specs and frame data no matter what. If anything, tiers are more skewed in a metagame with higher shieldstun, because it is limiting the options that the lower-tiered characters previously had. But even then, in a metagame with less shieldstun, characters that don't have great mobility specs or frame data have worse OoS options anyways. The only thing that most characters had with no serious negative repercussions was run up shield. Because, although all characters could utilize this, the slower characters benefitted from it more because it gave them an approaching option that they previously wouldn't have had. And now, because of the higher shieldstun, they have now just lost that option, because more mobile characters are just going to tear up their shields more effectively.

The main difference between the two types of shieldstun is, therefore, the amount of leeway is given to characters at the opposite ends of the mobility/speed spectrum. With less shieldstun, more leeway is given to slower characters. With more shieldstun, there is less leeway. And this is why Kirby's future doesn't look that great, while characters like Sheik/Pikachu/Fox/Mario/Sonic/etc are going to get better. Because they didn't need to rely on run up shield as a tactic in order to be as good as they are. And while their OoS options can't be used as often in shieldstun as in the past, this only matters while in shieldstun, as everyone can still use OoS options before the opponent hits their shield.


Campy strategies are going to exist regardless of the game's mechanics, as that is just a natural player tendency. Nothing can really "fix" that, as that's just a natural option to take in order to win.

Oh, and speaking of Jigglypuff, she is going to get worse because of this change. Not that she wasn't bad already or anything...



If it were me personally, I would have a metagame with less shieldstun, homogenize jumpsquat frames (because it makes faster character OoS options not as intimidating if everyone can do it), maybe adjust shield health/regen, and then buff/nerf characters accordingly with speed/mobility/frame data as core focuses to balance the cast around. But that's just me.

 

[GP2]

People are immensely over hyping the change, shield doesn't become unviable. Its just not as great as it was before.

It's more shield stun than melee so that's definitely taking it to an extreme and have you seen the lucario video?

 

[King Omega]

Here's the video I said I'd record

I can't reproduce this. I even went to Mario Maker omega in case that had something to do with it. Maybe you should try a different controller?

 

[Steam]

True because before the patch >>unsafe<< pressure options against a BETTER shield was much better right? Also further stiftle the meta into safe pressure? So unsafe pressure was the metagame until now, that sounds really stupid

(Special Note: If the nerf of the defensive options is indeed a bad thing, would you mind explain, as you call it bad for the game, not the competitive metagame, no for the WHOLE GAME , WHY having the "OP Shield" is better than not having it?

There wasn't much safe pressure so most characters couldn't result to some lazy safe pressure option and the ones that were safe usually required good spacing. Just making stuff frame safe on block without good mobility options serves to make the game very linear and reward auto pilot play. Old shield was hardly overpowered as most characters had high reward punishes off of grabs

 

[Vipermoon]

@Everyone who said Marth's Shield Breaker doing damage+25 instead of damage+30 on no charge is not a nerf because of shield stun; you guys are...nevermind, not gonna insult you. I'll just prove you wrong.

First of all, the extra shield damage doesn't factor into shield stun nor does it factor into shield pushback. Only actual damage plays a role in these.

So with that said, let's use our new preliminary equation. 8% / 1.8 then + 3 = 7 frames of shield stun (I heard it rounds down. The tipper does 9%. 9/1.8 +3 = exactly 8 frames. Edited this section and the conclusion because of order of operatons.

Pre-patch? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tBSyGei5A5eMr4TdgL2XBlw/htmlview#
This says 4 frames.

Conclusion: Shield Breaker does 3 or 4 more frames of shield stun. That is 3 or 4 more frames you have to stay in shield. That is worth about 1 shield HP!

Because of the shield change, Marth's Shield Breaker was nerfed by 4 shield HP instead of 5. Yay, 1 less.

EDIT 2: In my findings, shields don't even lose HP during shield stun so the entire shield breaker shield stun argument wouldn't exist in the first place. Still waiting on confirmation though.

UNLESS TOTAL SHIELD HP WAS REDUCED, HE WAS STILL NERFED. THEY NERFED A MOVE'S INTENDED PURPOSE.

Please, someone find out if shields have lower HP. Or give me a move or item that does about 45% including extra shield damage so I can test it myself. Then we'll know if it was an adjustment or a nerf.

"Just charge it some more, it will still break the shield." Really!? If I charge it is very easy to react to. Uncharged it's frame 19 which is almost impossible to react to AND input a dodge.

 

[---]

I want to double check this in case our board somehow slacked off/give a confirmation as Mega Man's Hyper Bomb (Neutral 2) seems to have also been buffed from 8% -> 10% (6% -> 8% on indirect hits).

Looking through older data charts (including my own) this seems like something that may have been overlooked during the first run-through of the new data.

 

[A_Kae]

@Everyone who said Marth's Shield Breaker doing damage+25 instead of damage+30 on no charge is not a nerf because of shield stun; you guys are...nevermind, not gonna insult you. I'll just prove you wrong.

First of all, the extra shield damage doesn't factor into shield stun nor does it factor into shield pushback. Only actual damage plays a role in these.

So with that said, let's use our new preliminary equation. 8% +3 then /1.8 = 6 frames of shield stun. The tipper does 9%. 9+3/1.8 = also 6 frames (I heard it rounds down).

Pre-patch? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tBSyGei5A5eMr4TdgL2XBlw/htmlview#
This says 4 frames.

Conclusion: Shield Breaker does 2 more frames of shield stun. That is 2 more frames you have to stay in shield. That isn't even worth 1 shield HP! But we'll say 1 to keep you...guys happy.

Because of the shield change, Marth's Shield Breaker was nerfed by 4 shield HP instead of 5. Yay, 1 less.


UNLESS TOTAL SHIELD HP WAS REDUCED, HE WAS STILL NERFED. THEY NERFED A MOVE'S INTENDED PURPOSE.

Please, someone find out if shields have lower HP. Or give me a move or item that does about 45% including extra shield damage so I can test it myself. Then we'll know if it was nerfed.

"Just charge it some more, it will still break the shield." Really? If I charge it is very easy to react to. Uncharged it's frame 19 which is almost impossible to react to AND input a dodge.

Small correction, Shaya's formula is ((d/1.8)+3), not ((d+3)/1.8). So, that's 7 frames of shieldstun.

 

[GP2]

Shields are weird in that they are a global aspect. Besides a few characters such as Jiggs, everyone's shield is the same. Therefore, changes to the shield change the way the game is played...obviously. But regardless of how the shield is changed, it doesn't have much to do with camping, which is a strategy as opposed to a mechanic. Therefore, let's look how changing the shield affects the game from a mechanical standpoint.


Less shieldstun = Shields are more effective being used as an approaching option and retreating option. Less shieldstun makes run up shield and OoS options more effective. Since these benefit all characters, this means that characters that rely on their shields as an approaching option and characters with amazing OoS options are going to recieve the most benefit from a metagame with low shieldstun.

More shieldstun = Obviously, shields aren't as safe anymore. In contrast to the above, run up shield and OoS options are less effective. Therefore, shields being used as an approaching and retreating option is less effective. So, this is simple enough to understand.

So, we figured out what changing the shield does in regards to shieldstun. But what does it do in a more broad spectrum? The main factor we can draw from this is time. And the more time it takes for something to work, the less valuable of an option it is, and it's ability to lead into other options is reduced.


Now here's the kicker: Characters with high mobility win no matter what type of shieldstun is being employed. Because not only do these characters have high mobility, but they typically also have amazing OoS options to boot. In other words, it's a catch 22. In a metagame with less shieldstun, they can capitalize upon their OoS options against characters that try to attack them, and they can utilize run up shield just like how any other character could. But in a metagame with more shieldstun, although they lose out slightly in regards to OoS options and run up shield, they didn't need those options as much as other characters to begin with. They still have their mobility specs and frame data no matter what. If anything, tiers are more skewed in a metagame with higher shieldstun, because it is limiting the options that the lower-tiered characters previously had. But even then, in a metagame with less shieldstun, characters that don't have great mobility specs or frame data have worse OoS options anyways. The only thing that most characters had with no serious negative repercussions was run up shield. Because, although all characters could utilize this, the slower characters benefitted from it more because it gave them an approaching option that they previously wouldn't have had. And now, because of the higher shieldstun, they have now just lost that option, because more mobile characters are just going to tear up their shields more effectively.

The main difference between the two types of shieldstun is, therefore, the amount of leeway is given to characters at the opposite ends of the mobility/speed spectrum. With less shieldstun, more leeway is given to slower characters. With more shieldstun, there is less leeway. And this is why Kirby's future doesn't look that great, while characters like Sheik/Pikachu/Fox/Mario/Sonic/etc are going to get better. Because they didn't need to rely on run up shield as a tactic in order to be as good as they are. And while their OoS options can't be used as often in shieldstun as in the past, this only matters while in shieldstun, as everyone can still use OoS options before the opponent hits their shield.


Campy strategies are going to exist regardless of the game's mechanics, as that is just a natural player tendency. Nothing can really "fix" that, as that's just a natural option to take in order to win.

Oh, and speaking of Jigglypuff, she is going to get worse because of this change. Not that she wasn't bad already or anything...



If it were me personally, I would have a metagame with less shieldstun, homogenize jumpsquat frames (because it makes faster character OoS options not as intimidating if everyone can do it), maybe adjust shield health/regen, and then buff/nerf characters accordingly with speed/mobility/frame data as core focuses to balance the cast around. But that's just me.

Thanks for going over the shield stuff. That's a really balanced way of thinking about it. The only thing I'm confused about is what would be the more prominent approaches and reactions to replace run up shield and oos. Would it just be straight up attacks?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

@Everyone who said Marth's Shield Breaker doing damage+25 instead of damage+30 on no charge is not a nerf because of shield stun; you guys are...nevermind, not gonna insult you. I'll just prove you wrong.

First of all, the extra shield damage doesn't factor into shield stun nor does it factor into shield pushback. Only actual damage plays a role in these.

So with that said, let's use our new preliminary equation. 8% +3 then /1.8 = 6 frames of shield stun. The tipper does 9%. 9+3/1.8 = also 6 frames (I heard it rounds down).

Pre-patch? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/tBSyGei5A5eMr4TdgL2XBlw/htmlview#
This says 4 frames.

Conclusion: Shield Breaker does 2 more frames of shield stun. That is 2 more frames you have to stay in shield. That isn't even worth 1 shield HP! But we'll say 1 to keep you...guys happy.

Because of the shield change, Marth's Shield Breaker was nerfed by 4 shield HP instead of 5. Yay, 1 less.


UNLESS TOTAL SHIELD HP WAS REDUCED, HE WAS STILL NERFED. THEY NERFED A MOVE'S INTENDED PURPOSE.

Please, someone find out if shields have lower HP. Or give me a move or item that does about 45% including extra shield damage so I can test it myself. Then we'll know if it was an adjustment or a nerf.

"Just charge it some more, it will still break the shield." Really!? If I charge it is very easy to react to. Uncharged it's frame 19 which is almost impossible to react to AND input a dodge.

That's great and all, but your order of operations is wrong.

8%/1.8 = 4.444444…, then +3 = 7.444444444. Floor to 7 frames.
So Shield Breaker forces you to stay in shield for 3 more frames, not 2.

 

[DunnoBro]

Old shield was hardly overpowered as most characters had high reward punishes off of grabs

Most good characters you mean.

The only way old shields could be healthy was by everyone killing off grabs primarily. (Or the very few safe on shield moves certain chars had)

I don't know if the game is overall better or worse, but this is a change that was needed to deliver a wider array of options to the cast as a whole. Unfortunately, it does seem a bit like L-canceling in that while it delivers options to bad chars, it makes already good options just stupidly good.

 

[Vipermoon]

That's great and all, but your order of operations is wrong.

8%/1.8 = 4.444444…, then +3 = 7.444444444. Floor to 7 frames.
So Shield Breaker forces you to stay in shield for 3 more frames, not 2.

You're right thanks. I'll edit my post.

 

[neohopeSTF]

It's more shield stun than melee so that's definitely taking it to an extreme and have you seen the lucario video?

Lucario is only in a few situations that can be avoided(even then it can be escaped), don't forget moves have alot of lag in Smash 4 still

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I want to double check this in case our board somehow slacked off/give a confirmation as Mega Man's Hyper Bomb (Neutral 2) seems to have also been buffed from 8% -> 10% (6% -> 8% on indirect hits).

Looking through older data charts (including my own) this seems like something that may have been overlooked during the first run-through of the new data.

Have pre-patch right here. Your numbers for Hyper Bomb are correct. Damage has been buffed.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Oh, and speaking of Jigglypuff, she is going to get worse because of this change. Not that she wasn't bad already or anything...

Not sure how Jiggs would suffer... do you mean her shield would get broken more, because shield was very powerful against Jiggs prepatch.

 

[Methacrylate]

Sheik does have one change to her needles:

-Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=2.200000, Angle=0x3c, BKB=0xb4, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x0, Size=1.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 1.100000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x9, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x0, 0x9, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
+Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=2.200000, Angle=0x3c, BKB=0xb4, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x0, Size=1.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 1.100000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x6, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x0, 0x9, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)

That is, needles do 3 less damage to shields.

Also the final smashes for Sheik, Zelda and Dark Pit changed their KBG from 32->33.

 

[Sardonyx]

How is Zelda's side smash affected by the shield changes? Is it safe on shield like Yoshi's down air or are the attack loops too spaced out for it to be safe?

I believe that Zelda's fsmash has a looping rate of 2 frames so they shouldn't be able to roll out or anything. Not to mention the extra shield stun combined with it's already good-ish pushback makes it more safe on block.

 

[GP2]

Lucario is only in a few situations that can be avoided, don't forget moves have alot of lag in Smash 4 still

Yes but the crazy amount of shield stun negates that. It's gotten to the point where most smash attacks are safe on shield. That shouldn't be a thing.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Just a heads up for the Lucario shield break discussion, you didn't think we needed longer than a day for a way out of it, did you?

 

[neohopeSTF]

Oh, and speaking of Jigglypuff, she is going to get worse because of this change. Not that she wasn't bad already or anything...

Don't see how puff will be worse when her moves are more safe on shield now

 

[GP2]

Sheik does have one change to her needles:

-Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=2.200000, Angle=0x3c, BKB=0xb4, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x0, Size=1.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 1.100000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x9, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x0, 0x9, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
+Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=2.200000, Angle=0x3c, BKB=0xb4, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x0, Size=1.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 1.100000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x6, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x0, 0x9, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)

That is, needles do 3 less damage to shields.

Also the final smashes for Sheik, Zelda and Dark Pit changed their KBG from 32->33.

So that's what that weird change was ....for a final smash that already is an insta-kill. kind of stupid....

 

[---]

Have pre-patch right here. Your numbers for Hyper Bomb are correct. Damage has been buffed.

Well then, Metal Blade has some major competition in customs now. Credit to @Diamond Octobot for pointing this change out. lol

 

[Chibi-Chan]

As someone who knows next to nothing about this stuff, what does that means?
Like, what is a frame loop and why is a frame loop of 4 not fast enough to lock people in shields?

That means the time in-betwen hits is 2 frames for Yoshi Dair and 4 frames for Megaman Upsmash. That means Yoshi one hits TWICE as fast, the stun on each hit is higher than the time it takes for the next one to come out. In Megaman's case, being so slow, they only get stunned for 2-3 frames and can drop it in time to get hit in the 4th one by the next hit.

 

[neohopeSTF]

Yes but the crazy amount of shield stun negates that. It's gotten to the point where most smash attacks are safe on shield. That shouldn't be a thing.

Its not a crazy amount, what smash attacks are now safe on shield that weren't before?

 

[GP2]

Just a heads up for the Lucario shield break discussion, you didn't think we needed longer than a day for a way out of it, did you?

Didn't even know there was shield DI gonna work on that.

 

[NouveauRétro]

Its not a crazy amount, what smash attacks are now safe on shield that weren't before?

Yeah, that's not true. It is a harder and less effective punish though, like you can't punish with a smash attack in return, which now that I think about may be too much.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Yeah, that's not true. It is a harder and less effective punish though, like you can't punish with a smash attack in return, which now that I think about may be too much.

I mean as long as you perfect shield a type of move that is one of the most predictable/easy to react to in the game, you can punish accordingly.

 

[GP2]

Its not a crazy amount, what smash attacks are now safe on shield that weren't before?

You got me there I can't name specific ones but a few are listed somewhere in page 8-12 of the forum

 

[Methacrylate]

Just a heads up for the Lucario shield break discussion, you didn't think we needed longer than a day for a way out of it, did you?

Pre-patch Lucario had aura sphere to up smash as a combo. Could a Lucario get enough shield damage from the aura sphere that they could break your shield with an up smash before you can successfully DI out?

 

[GP2]

Pre-patch Lucario had aura sphere to up smash as a combo. Could a Lucario get enough shield damage from the aura sphere that they could break your shield with an up smash before you can successfully DI out?

someone test this! I refuse to get the patch because once the smash ballot comes out they're gonna change it back.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Not sure how Jiggs would suffer... do you mean her shield would get broken more, because shield was very powerful against Jiggs prepatch.

Yeah, I think the argument is that Jigglypuff's shield would be broken more often, leading her to get KO'd easily and making shield never a safe option for a character who already can't take a hit.

Yes but the crazy amount of shield stun negates that. It's gotten to the point where most smash attacks are safe on shield. That shouldn't be a thing.

Honestly, I have no problem if the heavies get to hit your shield with Smash Attacks. That's their shtick. When the lightweights get to Smash Attack your shield instead of having to rely on weaker hits for pressure, there's a problem.

Sheik does have one change to her needles:

-Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=2.200000, Angle=0x3c, BKB=0xb4, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x0, Size=1.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 1.100000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x9, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x0, 0x9, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
+Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=2.200000, Angle=0x3c, BKB=0xb4, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x0, Size=1.500000, X=0.000000, Y=0.000000, 0.000000, 0x3, 0x0, 1.100000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x6, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x0, 0x9, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)

That is, needles do 3 less damage to shields.

Also the final smashes for Sheik, Zelda and Dark Pit changed their KBG from 32->33.

Is that all needles? I was under the impression that it was Penetrating Needles only that got their shield damage reduced.