Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[JamietheAuraUser]

From what I can tell, the defender's shieldhitlag has been normalized to match the hitlag of the attack now. So now Marth sourspot is actually less safe on block than Lucina's blade, a lot of super high hitlag (and electric) attacks are way safer, and a few moves actually became less safe on shield since than pre-patch due to losing the advantage of having little to no self-shieldhitlag (ZSS Dsmash?).

Powershielding actually negates some small amount of shieldstun now. Before the patch, all it did was negate pushback/shield damage and allow attacks during the shield drop animation. How much shieldstun is decreased by powershielding is something I'll have to look into.

Not sure how projectiles come into play with the new shield mechanics, but pre-patch a projectiles hitlag property only mattered on hit and didn't affect the defender's shieldhitlag at all. If somehow the defender's shieldhitlag is now being forced to match the attack's hitlag for all attacks, then projectiles will be safer or less safe depending on how much hitlag the projectile has.

Dang. With all these shieldhitlag and shieldstun changes the thread title suddenly became a lot more relevant.

 

[Caststarman]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3n1o1u/shield_regeneration_rate_decreased_majorly_999/

"Did some very rigid, extreme, and accurate testing on 1.1.1. I do not have these numbers for 1.1.0. So these conclusions cannot (yet) be compared to 1.1.0. Based on the following information, I don't think people will even want to bother based on the conclusion.

3DS version used. New 3DS XL. Maximum brightness. 3D depth slider at zero.

Went in training mode.

Picked Rosalina, default colour (pretty sure she has one of the biggest and longest lasting shields so the numbers are more accurate than using a smaller shield).

Picked Omega Balloon Fight for maximum (and consistent) visual contrast.

Stood in the middle of the stage, all black background, no background stars or distracting pixels.

Camera on zoom.

1/4 speed holding L mode for all recorded visual and timed measurements.

Measured approximately 2 3DS pixels from the edge of the point of her silver crown to the uppermost red tip of her fully regenerated (perfect) shield, i.e. the actual surface of the red sphere, not the white glimmer.

Measured approximately 1 3DS pixel from the outside of her blue body/gown (3DS outlines completely turned off) to the very edge of the white glimmer of the shield at the limit of breakage. (This took a lot of trial and error, but trust me, it is as accurate as humanly possible without advanced mod tools.)

Measured (via digital stopwatch) 25.5 +/- 0.5 seconds to break shield on 1/4 speed by holding shield the entire time. Timer starts at fully regenerated perfect shield frame(s). Timer stops at the beginning of shield break "pop" sound effect (some human error here, but very little since I was staring at the stopwatch on extremely high visual alertness).

Measured (again via stopwatch) 42.0 +/- 1.0 seconds to regenerate shield on 1/4 speed from just about to break to just fully regenerated. Timer starts on the frame(s) where shield is up, as miniscule as humanly possible just before breaking, pixel measurement used. Timer ends as soon as I freeze frame to the always-active-while-counting-up idle animation, before I check the perfect shield length and pixel measurements.

Implications are (where I slightly inflate human and visual errors after dividing measured times by 4 to remain generous):

It takes Rosalina 6.3 +/- 0.2 seconds to break her fully regenerated shield by holding it up with no other influence.

It takes Rosalina 10.5 +/- 0.5 seconds to fully regenerate her shield from practically-to-the-very-edge broken tojust fully regenerated.

Assuming my calculations are correct, this would imply for Rosalina (and potentially every character in the roster if this is a universal and linearly proportional change), ...drumroll please...

Shield Regeneration Time = ~1.66 x Shield Degeneration Time => Regen Time > Degen Time

To put this in human perspective, imagine how long it takes for Rosalina (or any character) to break their fully intact shield by merely holding it. Now, add two thirds of that time.

...That's how long it would take to regenerate the shield to full health from almost-broken.

Everyone, please tell me that I am not crazy."


Thoughts on this? /u/BlazeMass on reddit wanted to get the information out fast, so I am posting on his behalf.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

So few changes compared to previous patches, even then mostly to customs. Only Luigi was notably changed...I would've preferred a Ness nerf...

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

So few changes compared to previous patches, even then mostly to customs. Only Luigi was notably changed...I would've preferred a Ness nerf...

>Didn't read thread.

Did you not notice "massive increase in shieldstun across every move in the game"? How about "Shield hitlag mechanics revamped and we don't yet know for certain in what way" on the previous page? Or, on this very page, "possible massive increase in shield regen time"?

 

[Wtfwasthat]

rip luigi

We'll see how this nerf effects him in the long run

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

>Didn't read thread.

Did you not notice "massive increase in shieldstun across every move in the game"? How about "Shield hitlag mechanics revamped and we don't yet know for certain in what way" on the previous page? Or, on this very page, "possible massive increase in shield regen time"?

Perhaps I should have been more clear...I meant to the characters themselves. Still, I'm eager to see if I can ensure a shield break with Samus' bomb to a charge shot.

 

[redcometchar]

Found another framedata sheet. It doesn't notes any IASA frames either and confirms 20 frames of endlag.

Also, keep in mind that the sweetspot apparently is in the heel of the boot. You won't be hitting most shields with that due to how high that hitbox is.

Welp you were right. I was wrong. False alarm people

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

So...ZSS down smash is still relatively safe on shield? How unfortunate. (Oh hey I'm a Smash Cadet now...PROGRESS)

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Perhaps I should have been more clear...I meant to the characters themselves. Still, I'm eager to see if I can ensure a shield break with Samus' bomb to a charge shot.

Not sure if Ryu's Collarbone Breaker being inescapable if you shield it counts as a change…. Or if Link seemingly having a blockstring that leads to a full shield break counts as a change….

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Not sure if Ryu's Collarbone Breaker being inescapable if you shield it counts as a change…. Or if Link having a blockstring that leads to a full shield break counts as a change….

Well, first of all, I meant direct changes, second...THEY BUFFED LINK!?

 

[DUKEL]

Not sure if Ryu's Collarbone Breaker being inescapable if you shield it counts as a change…. Or if Link seemingly having a blockstring that leads to a full shield break counts as a change….

both of those are escapable though...

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's not. if you try to roll or spot dodge you get hit.

 

[Masonomace]

I'm sorry if this was already brought up, but this is big news that Shulk players just found out from the Discord group. This patch fixed the Air Slash glitch that Shulk previously had for the longest time.

See here for the glitch video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWhdjXRLAL8

When you cycle to the Jump art or any art that's on cooldown, which means it's gray, you can input Air Slash immediately after the art beside the character portrait vanishes. Previously in many patches we couldn't, but now we can!

 

[erico9001]

Before the patch, I made this video:

Shulk's No Up B Glitch has been fixed! Rejoice :D!

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) I'm really recovering it

 

[Vipermoon]

According to http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu, you are locked in shield. It hits on 13 then 15-16 (let's just say 15). The first hit does 4 frames of shield stun. You are easily locked in shield mostly thanks to that +3 on the new (preliminary) equation.

This is the real shield breaker. Marth's isn't that great anymore.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Before you know it, we'll have Smash 64 shieldstun, and then everyone will have shield break strings...and then Ganondorf will rule the meta...WAHAHAHAHAHAHA! But probably not, still, good for Ryu.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Before you know it, we'll have Smash 64 shieldstun, and then everyone will have shield break strings...and then Ganondorf will rule the meta...WAHAHAHAHAHAHA! But probably not, still, good for Ryu.

https://mobile.twitter.com/gazer2014/status/649222545107873793
Dunno if it's escapable but uh…. that happened.

 

[Skiji]

rip luigi

We'll see how this nerf effects him in the long run

Here's what it does to him as far as I've seen:
He's more deadly with low percent combos, but at the cost of not being able to kill as easy. Long story short, he's a better, but worse Sheik now as far as taking stocks.
...It's also easier to spike with D-Air. Yay.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gazer2014/status/649222545107873793
Dunno if it's escapable but uh…. that happened.

Why...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That's what I was saying. You're right that her dsmash doesn't have a hitlag modifier, which is what lead me to think that.

Prior to now, the defending character disregarded the hitlag modifier of shielded attacks, so regardless of this projectile theory (has it even been proven?) its 0.3 hitlag modifier should actually come into play now, resulting in less hitlag on block than before.

Which...probably answers my own question from my previous post. If Luma's hitlag modifiers factor in on shield now, Rosalina's numbers on shield are going to be fun.

ZSS dsmash as a special flag where it has no hitlag

zelda neutral b also has it

 

[Methacrylate]

https://mobile.twitter.com/gazer2014/status/649222545107873793
Dunno if it's escapable but uh…. that happened.

I just some estimates for this one, I believe there was 1 frame to escape the shield break between the ff nair and the d smash.

 

[Lavani]

ZSS dsmash as a special flag where it has no hitlag

zelda neutral b also has it

For future reference, what/where is this flag in the data?

 

[Ghostbone]

According to http://www.kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ryu, you are locked in shield. It hits on 13 then 15-16 (let's just say 15). The first hit does 4 frames of shield stun. You are easily locked in shield mostly thanks to that +3 on the new (preliminary) equation.

This is the real shield breaker. Marth's isn't that great anymore.

Confirmed this in training mode, if you shield the first he you're locked in shield for the second hit.

Why they didn't nerf Ryu's shieldbreaker along with the others is incomprehensible, this character is ******** now.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

For future reference, what/where is this flag in the data?

No idea! :3

 

[Big O]

Another change I noticed with the new shield mechanics is that the minimum 11 frame shield duration now overlaps with shieldstun instead of being separate. Basically if you messed up your powershield timing you used to get up to 7 extra frames of lag before you can shield drop pre-patch. Now, the difference is pretty much 0 unless you like block a jab right after the powershield window ends. Anything stronger than a jab seems to have the minimum shield duration finish before shieldstun ends.

 

[Ryuji]

Patch after patch my Shulk hardly ever gets touched. Can only be happy about that ^^

 

[Alayashiki]

This is the only appropriate response to this thread:

http://www.youtubedoubler.com/?vide.../watch?v=X2WH8mHJnhM&start2=19&authorName=rip

 

[Shaya]

Okay... my current "cheat sheet" thoughts:

Shield stun = floor(DMG / 1.8) + 3
Shield Hit Lag = Hit Lag. Electric Modifier and Hit Lag modifiers are now irrelevant to most frame data. The exception would be landing sync, which apparently is still in?

Anything with a sub 1.0 modifier is now less safe on shield. I'd probably like a double check, but Ryu is now even safer on shield... again lol.
Hit lag is matched for attacker and receiver in seemingly all circumstances

Minimum shielding time now overlaps with shield stun (BANG)

Shield stun is reduced by 25% on power shield? (0.75x; can this be double checked?)

I need another test on something.
What's sub 1.8 damage going to in shield stun? 3 frames or 4?

Some moves that could be tested:
Pika fair prehits (1.7 dmg)
Fox dair prehits (1.4 dmg)
Fox Fair prehits (0.8 dmg)
Yoshi dair landing (1 dmg)
Wario dair prehits (1.3 dmg)
Pit nair prehits (0.7 dmg), Fair prehits (1.5)


IMO Dev team have decided they want consistent timings on block back in the game [something that I think is the reason the game pisses off a lot of Brawl players who wonder why things don't feel right] + more emphasis on shield shuffling tech skill which will now be consistent and won't cause accidental dodges

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Another change I noticed with the new shield mechanics is that the minimum 11 frame shield duration now overlaps with shieldstun instead of being separate. Basically if you messed up your powershield timing you used to get up to 7 extra frames of lag before you can shield drop pre-patch. Now, the difference is pretty much 0 unless you like block a jab right after the powershield window ends. Anything stronger than a jab seems to have the minimum shield duration finish before shieldstun ends.

This... I think this makes me want to kill myself less if I'm reading it correctly.

So if something has 7 frames of shieldstun you can drop and run immediately?

 

[LancerStaff]

Okay... my current "cheat sheet" thoughts:

Shield stun = floor(DMG / 1.8) + 3
Shield Hit Lag = Hit Lag. Electric Modifier and Hit Lag modifiers are now irrelevant to most frame data. The exception would be landing sync, which apparently is still in?

Anything with a sub 1.0 modifier is now less safe on shield. I'd probably like a double check, but Ryu is now even safer on shield... again lol.
Hit lag is matched for attacker and receiver in seemingly all circumstances

Minimum shielding time now overlaps with shield stun (BANG)

Shield stun is reduced by 25% on power shield? (0.75x; can this be double checked?)

I need another test on something.
What's sub 1.8 damage going to in shield stun? 3 frames or 4?

Some moves that could be tested:
Pika fair prehits (1.7 dmg)
Fox dair prehits (1.4 dmg)
Fox Fair prehits (0.8 dmg)
Yoshi dair landing (1 dmg)
Wario dair prehits (1.3 dmg)
Pit nair prehits (0.7 dmg), Fair prehits (1.5)


IMO Dev team have decided they want consistent timings on block back in the game [something that I think is the reason the game pisses off a lot of Brawl players who wonder why things don't feel right] + more emphasis on shield shuffling tech skill which will now be consistent and won't cause accidental dodges

What exactly do you want tested on Pit's Nair/Fair? Because from I can tell they're even harder to escape rather then being easier.

 

[Big O]

This... I think this makes me want to kill myself less if I'm reading it correctly.

So if something has 7 frames of shieldstun you can drop and run immediately?

Basically, there is no real penalty for mistiming powershield attempts now. Before (pre-patch), you would take extra long to drop your shield if you barely missed the powershield window.

 

[[Deuce]]

Another change I noticed with the new shield mechanics is that the minimum 11 frame shield duration now overlaps with shieldstun instead of being separate. Basically if you messed up your powershield timing you used to get up to 7 extra frames of lag before you can shield drop pre-patch. Now, the difference is pretty much 0 unless you like block a jab right after the powershield window ends. Anything stronger than a jab seems to have the minimum shield duration finish before shieldstun ends.

Okay so if I got this right, before you had 7 frames of shield drop lag, which was cancelled if you got hit, but now if you get hit with a jab you get up to 7 frames of shield stun, so even though your jab hits shield and takes out shield drop lag it will be replaced with shield stun, so its the same time frame as if they shielded and didn't get hit?

Shields in Smash 4:

• 1-3: Power shield
• 4-11: locked into shield [11 frames minimum]
• 12-18: shield drop lag (7 frames)

Basically, there is no real penalty for mistiming powershield attempts now. Before (pre-patch), you would take extra long to drop your shield if you barely missed the powershield window.

I thought the 7 frames of shield drop lag were eliminated if the opponent makes contact with shield? That's why shield was good and it was good to bait them into shield and just grab them?

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Hit lag is matched for attacker and receiver in seemingly all circumstances

Wouldn't that still make sub-1.0x hitlag moves less safe than they used to be though, since it used to be that shield hitlag for the defender was always 1x?

 

[Ghostbone]

Wouldn't that still make sub-1.0x hitlag moves less safe than they used to be though, since it used to be that shield hitlag for the defender was always 1x?

Yup, Marth and Roy sourspots are less safe now afaik.

 

[LRodC]

So is this patch actually as major as it's being cracked up to be? Will it actually affect character viability and the metagame heavily? If something is changed for everyone, not much ends up being changed overall.

 

[Equin0x]

From what I can tell, the defender's shieldhitlag has been normalized to match the hitlag of the attack now. So now Marth sourspot is actually less safe on block than Lucina's blade, a lot of super high hitlag (and electric) attacks are way safer, and a few moves actually became less safe on shield since than pre-patch due to losing the advantage of having little to no self-shieldhitlag (ZSS Dsmash?).

Powershielding actually negates some small amount of shieldstun now. Before the patch, all it did was negate pushback/shield damage and allow attacks during the shield drop animation. How much shieldstun is decreased by powershielding is something I'll have to look into.

Not sure how projectiles come into play with the new shield mechanics, but pre-patch a projectiles hitlag property only mattered on hit and didn't affect the defender's shieldhitlag at all. If somehow the defender's shieldhitlag is now being forced to match the attack's hitlag for all attacks, then projectiles will be safer or less safe depending on how much hitlag the projectile has.

I'm sorry, I'm not fully understanding this. are you saying that, previously, an attack's hitlag modifier didn't affect shields? It was confirmed last patch that attacks with a high shieldlag modifier gave the blocker more lag than the user, which means that they must've been affected. I'd just appreciate a little elaboration on this. Is it a certain kind of modifier, like electricity?

Second, what is the result of powershielding an attack now? You say that shieldstun frames remain... does this mean that there will be an additional 3+ frames during which you'll be trapped in shield? If so, will you still be able to drop as immediately as before?

Third, by "hitlag property", do you mean a projectile with a hitlag modifier? Prepatch, a blocked Charge Shot or Shadow Ball still caused tremendous lag iirc. Was that all purely caused by damage?

Finally, can someone ( Shaya ?) please summarize the changes ZSS' Dsmash has gone through? I tried reading the past couple pages but couldn't grasp what was being said about it.

 

[Erimir]

I want to double check this in case our board somehow slacked off/give a confirmation as Mega Man's Hyper Bomb (Neutral 2) seems to have also been buffed from 8% -> 10% (6% -> 8% on indirect hits).

Looking through older data charts (including my own) this seems like something that may have been overlooked during the first run-through of the new data.

The Hyper Bomb itself also moves significantly faster.

I tested simultaneously on Wii U and 3DS, and when you throw a Hyper Bomb (neutral/forward direction) on the updated version, it hits the ground while the old version is still like around Mega Man's head height. It's clearly noticeable.

So HB is buffed in damage, endlag AND projectile speed.

 

[Omega Tyrant]

A note about the Fox change that isn't reflected in the OP; while the down throw lasers deal .5% less damage, an extra one is fired, so the throw still deals 7% overall like it did before.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yaknow, why is all this patch talk separated? They've literally come to the opposite conclusion on the 0.X modifiers in the viability rankings thread... Hoping for a solid answer.