Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[GeneralLedge]

Well, yeah, but nobody actually uses fully charged SB. It isn't really a nerf, but still.

I do, sometimes... It's a cool fakeout out of doublejump, since it pushes you forward farther than your opponent expects...

...Or I'm a noob facing bigger noobs with Marth...

 

[Eureka]

The new shield changes supposedly make it easier for Palutena to use smashes without being punished, as noted in the thread.

The game as a whole is more aggressive now. We should wait and see rather than prematurely complaining. Everyone made premature complaints about the shield breaker nerfs, and now we know why the shield breaker nerfs were done. Are we really going to make the same mistake again right after?

That is something that literally every character got Palutena got nothing because wind boxes don't affect shielding foes. And unless Palutena got some sort of change that is somehow major enough to matter yet not obvious enough to not get noticed we can pretty safely say that Palutena did not get anything of significance in this patch because based Thinkman went through the code for us.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Anyone know if Robin got any buffs/nerfs?

Robin received some massive buffs on his/her victory screen. Not sure if it makes the character high tier but it's definitely a notable change.

 

[PK Gaming]

This actually gives you a reason to take out the Luma. Once it's gone, you can freely pummel Rosalina without any interference.

Except you always had a reason to take out Luma, haha

This change feels like a mistake rather than a deliberate decision. I'll deal though.

 

[PandaEffect]

Can we get some consensus on the air dodge / spot dodge situation, according to the data it looks like they took a frame nerf in either invincibility or IASA, but even though everyone keeps mentioning it along this thread, no one has confirmed it.

 

[GP2]

This is just my opinion but I think that the new change to shields really unbalanced the game. Before the patch everything sort of worked as a rock paper scissors type mechanic. Shield were good so in order to beat them you had to use grabs. Grabs could be countered by attacks and in order to block those attacks you would have to use your shield. Now with the bad shields people will be grabbing a lot less and attacks will dominate. Shield would be the option to beat attacks but with the shield stun you can't really do anything and it's as if attacks beat shield as well.

 

[Mr. Bulldops]

That is something that literally every character got Palutena got nothing because wind boxes don't affect shielding foes. And unless Palutena got some sort of change that is somehow major enough to matter yet not obvious enough to not get noticed we can pretty safely say that Palutena did not get anything of significance in this patch because based Thinkman went through the code for us.

Some characters benefit from this more than others. There weren't that many changes in general, and most of the ones that were either customs or things take into account shields, as ItsRainingGravy's post suggests.

 

[Cactusblah]

This is just my opinion but I think that the new change to shields really unbalanced the game. Before the patch everything sort of worked as a rock paper scissors type mechanic. Shield were good so in order to beat them you had to use grabs. Grabs could be countered by attacks and in order to block those attacks you would have to use your shield. Now with the bad shields people will be grabbing a lot less and attacks will dominate. Shield would be the option to beat attacks but with the shield stun you can't really do anything and it's as if attacks beat shield as well.

Now movement is a better defensive option. Proper spacing is more important.

 

[Nu~]

Just thinking of all the safe moves pacman has on shield now...

Our hydrant glitch may be gone, but we just got a lot more in return

 

[underpowered]

Now movement is a better defensive option. Proper spacing is more important.

To me the only foil to this is projectiles.

How do projectiles/hitstun work together? Can someone elaborate WRT the relevance of this patch?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] with the shield stun you can't really do anything [...]

Aren't we getting a bit ahead of ourselves right now? We don't even know how the whole change of mechanics actually works and people already draw such drastic conclusions.

 

[Thelostrune]

Doesn't this shieldstun thing make Shiek able to instantly grab you after you shield the (falling) forward air?

Now movement is a better defensive option. Proper spacing is more important.

It's certainly a good change, but aren't slow characters just completely killed off by this?

 

[fromundaman]

OP is missing a lot:

-ZSS DownB has a noticeably weaker spike. Dsmash>DownB spike is not killing training dummies at 140%. It also seems like you can't use it while suffering from knockback anymore, so no escaping combos with her DownB.
-I think ZSS' Uair got changed, but I'm not familiar enough with the character to be sure. Someone please check this.

-Pika Dthrow was changed. More knockback and different direction. Dthrow Utilt will no longer work at any %.

-Rosalina Uair>Uair no longer works as Luma knocks them behind Rosa and away from her. Also seems to have less kill power.

-Slight buffs to Mewtwo. Most noticeable is that teleporting into a slant under a ledge now makes him ride up to the ledge instead of turning at a right angle and dying. Mewtwo's still terrible though.

-Bowser Jr. had some of his multi-hit moves fixed. It used to be at high %/high rage his multi-hit moves would knock you out of the last hit making them both ineffective and punishable on hit. Usmash, Fsmash, Mechakoopa and Dtilt now have all hits connect. UpB, jabs and DA still have these issues though... Baby steps I guess.

 

[q_e_d]

Doesn't this shieldstun thing make Shiek able to instantly grab you after you shield the (falling) forward air?

No, the shield stun is increased by I think 3 or 4 frames, but that's still not enough to land and grab before the opponent can spot dodge.

 

[Jmacz]

Does this shield stun change have any affect on perfect shields and option selects?

 

[Jummy]

Now with the bad shields people will be grabbing a lot less and attacks will dominate. Shield would be the option to beat attacks but with the shield stun you can't really do anything and it's as if attacks beat shield as well.

A lot of attacks already beat shields if spaced correctly. This makes those attacks even safer, but for the most part you can't just go deep on someones shield and expect to not get grabbed (though admittedly I'm like 99% sure that shiek fair->jab is legit on shield now, meaning she can prevent you from grabbing her. I did the math last patch and found that it didn't work by i think 3 frames or so, so now it should be legit). Shield still beats attack for the most part, it's just that offense is safer now because shield isn't the 100% go to option for defense anymore because of the increased shieldstun and roll nerf.

 

[Skiji]

OP is missing a lot:

-ZSS DownB has a noticeably weaker spike. Dsmash>DownB spike is not killing training dummies at 140%. It also seems like you can't use it while suffering from knockback anymore, so no escaping combos with her DownB.
-I think ZSS' Uair got changed, but I'm not familiar enough with the character to be sure. Someone please check this.

-Pika Dthrow was changed. More knockback and different direction. Dthrow Utilt will no longer work at any %.

-Rosalina Uair>Uair no longer works as Luma knocks them behind Rosa and away from her. Also seems to have less kill power.

-Slight buffs to Mewtwo. Most noticeable is that teleporting into a slant under a ledge now makes him ride up to the ledge instead of turning at a right angle and dying. Mewtwo's still terrible though.

-Bowser Jr. had some of his multi-hit moves fixed. It used to be at high %/high rage his multi-hit moves would knock you out of the last hit making them both ineffective and punishable on hit. Usmash, Fsmash, Mechakoopa and Dtilt now have all hits connect. UpB, jabs and DA still have these issues though... Baby steps I guess.

-Pacman has a noticeably faster grab (EDIT: Debunked apparently?). That said his Nair got nerfed. It lost 2% and has less knockback. Also his abusable glitches are gone. Let's hope the ones that made trampoline randomly disappear are gone too...

It's still a work in progress. Also, I'm sure you know this, but make sure that placebo isn't taking over your brain when making these assumptions.

 

[tronfox64]

Time to punish some defense.

I think I'm falling in love with my current vision of what this meta will become

 

[WinterWonter]

I'd rather be happy we GET updates. And there are more modes than just 1v1 no items... Anyways...

I noticed that aswell, but can also be just placebo.

I just chose for glory because it's for glory. I meant customs in all online modes, excuse me

 

[Megalopunny3]

I just wanna point out that the meta isn't drastically different. Stop with all the theoretical "oh this means that this will not work and this will be changed" cuz after playing the game, the only thing I noticed is that you can get away with more if the opponent shields your attack. I know that leaves a lot of possibilities just punishing is a little harder and requires more reads. The game didn't shift a monumental amount

 

[ARGHETH]

-Slight buffs to Mewtwo. Most noticeable is that teleporting into a slant under a ledge now makes him ride up to the ledge

Are you sure about this? Because I just tried it and still sometimes randomly get that.

I just wanna point out that the meta isn't drastically different. Stop with all the theoretical "oh this means that this will not work and this will be changed" cuz after playing the game, the only thing I noticed is that you can get away with more if they shield. I know that leaves a lot of possibilities just punishing is a little harder and requires more reads. The game didn't shift a monumental amout

I'd just like to point out that there's a difference between you playing for a day and high level players taking advantage of this. Why can't we theorize? As of right now, we really don't know what'll happen.

 

[fromundaman]

It's still a work in progress. Also, I'm sure you know this, but make sure that placebo isn't taking over your brain when making these assumptions.

Just testing in training with a friend DIing, but you're right. Placebo was apparently in effect for the Pacman grab change, but the other ones are blatant. Like hop into training mode yourself and you will see it. Pika used to combo Dthrow to Utilt, that is no longer physically possible. Similarly ZSS had one of the best spikes, which is clearly no longer the case.

EDIT:

Are you sure about this? Because I just tried it and still sometimes randomly get that.

IDK, maybe it's inconsistent then? I just know it used to always kill you, and when I tested it after the patch dropped I was able to ride the ledge a dozen times.

 

[Megalopunny3]

Are you sure about this? Because I just tried it and still sometimes randomly get that.

I'd just like to point out that there's a difference between you playing for a day and high level players taking advantage of this. Why can't we theorize? As of right now, we really don't know what'll happen.

Okay I get the fact it will change competitive but most people aren't there and it doesn't change that much.. Should've made that more clear in my comment, but yeah the meta will change for mostly only Pros

 

[BSP]

I just wanna point out that the meta isn't drastically different. Stop with all the theoretical "oh this means that this will not work and this will be changed" cuz after playing the game, the only thing I noticed is that you can get away with more if the opponent shields your attack. I know that leaves a lot of possibilities just punishing is a little harder and requires more reads. The game didn't shift a monumental amount

My character can force shield breaks with these slight changes. A little can go a long way.

 

[The21stSmasher]

Wait, why the customs?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Hey, I finished scrubbing through each character's (non-custom) moves side by side for changes in endlag/landlag. Only three this time around. And after reading about these changes to shieldstun, I can see why. One major engine change means they can't accurately decide what moves should be quicker to act out of. Regardless, the changes are:

: Neutral B endlag reduced (air and ground versions affected)
: Nair landing lag reduced
: Fair landing lag reduced.

I can provide pre-patch footage. I need somebody else to provide the post-patch to compare to so we can have video evidence.

 

[Krysco]

So I may have discovered something although it's minor, random and may have nothing to do with this patch. Heck, it may have been in since release.

If you spam spot dodge with certain characters and then try to jump, the game flat out won't let you for a certain amount of time. I first discovered this with my cousin earlier today and he saw me pressing the jump button and it not working. And no, my controller isn't broken since it works shortly after and it worked during our entire FG dubs session today. That being said, there's a few things to note about this.

I tested this with and and only wasn't affected by it. I tested this on Omega Mario Maker, Omega Flat Zone X and Omega Battlefield and it seemed to happen more on the first two which happen to be 2D stages.

I'm gonna get my camera and try to record it and then I'll post it here. Again, might not even be patch related and the spot dodge seems to have to be spammed a certain amount of times. I tried doing 1 spot dodge and jumping and it worked perfectly every time.

 

[Locke 06]

Have a patch discussion somewhere else. If you don't have a relevant question about the changes and you're just stating your opinion, this really isn't the thread. Smash 4 social awaits.


On topic: how are the equations on shield stun relating to perfect shield and blocking projectiles coming? I know LordWilliam has some numbers. Is there more to fit an equation to?

 

[Megalopunny3]

My character can force shield breaks with these slight changes. A little can go a long way.

True.. I think the whole shield thing is good, but I mean after playing it didn't seem too big of a deal

 

[S_B]

Just thinking of all the safe moves pacman has on shield now...

Our hydrant glitch may be gone, but we just got a lot more in return

Abadango will ride again!!!!!! :D

 

[Meru.]

: Neutral B endlag reduced (air and ground versions affected)

This one is known, someone posted in this thread before too.

From the Peach boards:

Peach changes from Dantarion's dumps:

Toad:

• Start-up slightly decreased (11 to 10)
• Duration increased (32 to 35)
• Ending lag slightly decreased on whiff (65 to 63)
• Ending lag decreased on hit (66 to 61)
• Changes apply to both grounded and air versions.
• Ending lag on whiff and hit applies to customs as well. Start-up and durations buffs do not.

UpB Custom 3
Frame rate multiplier from 1.8 to 1.6 on last hit.

 

[S_B]

On topic: how are the equations on shield stun relating to perfect shield and blocking projectiles coming? I know LordWilliam has some numbers. Is there more to fit an equation to?

That was my very next question.

In a meta where perfect parrying is becoming the norm (or the desired norm, anyway), the whole shieldstun thing may not be as big of a deal as we seem to think...

 

[JosePollo]

Aside from the universal changes to get-up attacks Lucas didn't get any significant nerfs or buffs, though it looks like his air dodge has one less frame of something, probably intangibility, bit I'm not really sure.

We're still stuck with that ****ty, ****ty grab, though the increased shield stun should help his already-decent shield pressure game.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Every* character suffered intangibility nerfs, on airdodges and/or rolls.

Pretty sure most characters didn't really get changes because we need to see how these Shield mechanics turn out.

 

[Darklink401]

OP is missing a lot:

-ZSS DownB has a noticeably weaker spike. Dsmash>DownB spike is not killing training dummies at 140%. It also seems like you can't use it while suffering from knockback anymore, so no escaping combos with her DownB.
-I think ZSS' Uair got changed, but I'm not familiar enough with the character to be sure. Someone please check this.

-Pika Dthrow was changed. More knockback and different direction. Dthrow Utilt will no longer work at any %.

-Rosalina Uair>Uair no longer works as Luma knocks them behind Rosa and away from her. Also seems to have less kill power.

-Slight buffs to Mewtwo. Most noticeable is that teleporting into a slant under a ledge now makes him ride up to the ledge instead of turning at a right angle and dying. Mewtwo's still terrible though.

-Bowser Jr. had some of his multi-hit moves fixed. It used to be at high %/high rage his multi-hit moves would knock you out of the last hit making them both ineffective and punishable on hit. Usmash, Fsmash, Mechakoopa and Dtilt now have all hits connect. UpB, jabs and DA still have these issues though... Baby steps I guess.

ZSS' down B, you gotta press b again to do the strong spike.

 

[Astra Waifucon]

Fair enough if you don't want to go out of your way to change something this minor, but if possible in the changes table on the first page, can we have customs in a different colour, just so we can go through and see the important stuff.

 

[Deleted member]

The fact that Shield Breaker had it's intended purpose nerfed and the fact that ANYTHING about Melee Charge Shot was weakened disgusts me..

 

[NarayanK]

The fact that Shield Breaker had it's intended purpose nerfed and the fact that ANYTHING about Melee Charge Shot was weakened disgusts me..

Shield Breaker still functions generally the same due to how a lot of moves (including Shield Breaker) have higher shield stun now. It wasn't nerfed.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Fair enough if you don't want to go out of your way to change something this minor, but if possible in the changes table on the first page, can we have customs in a different colour, just so we can go through and see the important stuff.

Customs is quite important though, maybe not for every region, but it is still a change.

 

[Krysco]

Here's the video I said I'd record:

Not sure if this is related to the patch but I've never heard of this before. If this belongs somewhere else and/or if this is common knowledge then my apologies.

Edit: Here's the post I'm referring to in the video

So I may have discovered something although it's minor, random and may have nothing to do with this patch. Heck, it may have been in since release.

If you spam spot dodge with certain characters and then try to jump, the game flat out won't let you for a certain amount of time. I first discovered this with my cousin earlier today and he saw me pressing the jump button and it not working. And no, my controller isn't broken since it works shortly after and it worked during our entire FG dubs session today. That being said, there's a few things to note about this.

I tested this with and and only wasn't affected by it. I tested this on Omega Mario Maker, Omega Flat Zone X and Omega Battlefield and it seemed to happen more on the first two which happen to be 2D stages.

I'm gonna get my camera and try to record it and then I'll post it here. Again, might not even be patch related and the spot dodge seems to have to be spammed a certain amount of times. I tried doing 1 spot dodge and jumping and it worked perfectly every time.