Official Mario Enigma Machine [1.1.1] Patch Notes

[Locke 06]

That doesn't NOT make it an unfair advantage. You're basically saying it is fair for an option that the game states is effective on every other character, but SHOULDN'T be effective on Rosalina? Lets say hypotetically there was an update that made her shield automatically drop instead of break if Luma was present, completely denying one of the rules the game states should happen. Is that another instance of "get good and kill Luma" or is that an instance of unfair advantage?

You cant have all the basic rules apply to all but one character. Variables like weight and Aura do not change the fact that you can still perform all the basic moves on any character.

Take this conversation somewhere else.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

What's the difference between shield stun and shield hit lag?

 

[q_e_d]

cause you pop a balloon, thats why

You just blew my mind with that.

Also, why is this thread turning into a discussion about Luma being broken??

 

[Eureka]

You do realize, once you take out Luma, Rosalina is extremely bad? Her fully charge smashes don't even take around 15% without luma, She has no kill power without luma, she can't do half her moveset without luma, and she's extremel floatly, light, and has no combos into throws without luma.

Taking out Luma is more than just giving you pummel abilities. Rosa is fine where she is.

But why should she get BUFFED? Why should I have to deal with the fact that when she does have Luma I get less reward on grabs for no reason? When she does have Luma racking percent on Rosalina is very valuable and I don't think they fact that she can completely ignore that from pummels is a fair change on an already great character. She was fine where she was, there's a reason they patched that out in the first place.

 

[Aninymouse]

cause you pop a balloon, thats why

It was a rhetorical question. Obviously I knew the reasoning behind it.

 

[Lavani]

So looking at the Dantarion changelist, Sheik herself received no significant changes outside of the universal back roll/airdodge/get up attack nerfs, and some random change to Light Arrow, but it also seems that her Needle Storm has been adjusted in some way. Do we know what happened there?

Shield damage on the Penetrating Needles custom was reduced by 3%. Early hit 9→6%, late hit 7→4%.

 

[Eureka]

Luma gets killed by a dash attack from almost anyone in the game if it's on the wrong part of the stage. Nana has a whole AI designed around survival and the ability to shield, grab+throw, airdodge, and use items.

If you're going to compare the two then you should be fair and list all advantages and disadvantages, not just the ones that benefit you now that you don't have the Ice Climbers to complain about. Work to separate the two if you want pummel damage. You're dealing with a tall lightweight, it's not as though they'll be living to high percentages unless you let them or if they just outplay you.

Nana's A.I. is hardly good at fighting off a decent opponent and get's wrecked by edgegaurding, and trying to kill luma with dash attacks will get you punished.
I'm not saying this is broken, but I think it's an unnecessary buff and one that should be removed and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Aphistemi]

But why should she get BUFFED? Why should I have to deal with the fact that when she does have Luma I get less reward on grabs for no reason? When she does have Luma racking percent on Rosalina is very valuable and I don't think they fact that she can completely ignore that from pummels is a fair change on an already great character. She was fine where she was, there's a reason they patched that out in the first place.

I'm not gonna argue in a patch thread. but the buff is not even that great, she was allowed to attack you since 3ds release, being able to do tlits, or have better control over the luma while grabbed won't change the meta at all, nor would it change the way you should play the matchup, and that's focusing on getting rid of luma.

she's a light character, you can rack up damage without grabs, and kill her around 80% depending who you are. or what move you do.

 

[New_Dumal]

I'm not sure if needles benefit that much more. It also really depends on how fast you recover from the move. random hits will most likely not benefit you the shield stun doesn't stack anyways. Needle storm close range maybe?

Today I will test if is possible to frametrap people into a grab (because they shield) with needles or grenade.
Maybe if you launch full-charged needles at a opponent at medium/low distance, you can boost grab them in reaction to the bigger shieldstun.
I think Sheik was in need of this, for example!
all the way (if it's possible).

 

[Nexelon]

Anyone else got touched? I think that seems about it.

 

[Maraphy]

Does this mean that Palutena's forward smash is near unpunishable now? Shield stun + windbox?

the windbox doesn't affect someone shielding so no

 

[S_B]

Do they not understand that nerfs make the game feel less fun for the people that play the affected characters? Unless something is legit broken or overly problematic, they should focus more on making the more overlooked characters viable.

Because the power creep involved in that would be absolutely absurd and would break the game at casual levels.

It's infinitely easier to tone down 3-4 problematic characters than it is to try to bring the other 50+ up to their level.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

But why should she get BUFFED? Why should I have to deal with the fact that when she does have Luma I get less reward on grabs for no reason? When she does have Luma racking percent on Rosalina is very valuable and I don't think they fact that she can completely ignore that from pummels is a fair change on an already great character. She was fine where she was, there's a reason they patched that out in the first place.

Keep note that one of Rosalina's buffs involves her custom specials, which aren't allowed to be used in customs OFF battles.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

So... ZSS' down smash had it's hitlag frames disappear because... reasons.

On the up side, her back air is now 2 frames safer than Sheik's fair on shield. Hype!

 

[Funtroon]

Can we skip the Luma talk and focus more on which characters mostly benefit from this change to the shield hitstun and which ones will have troubles with it?

 

[Zink Imp]

Shield Breaker (Neutral Special) shield damage decreased 30 → 25

As in it's harder to break shields with it?

 

[Eureka]

Keep note that one of Rosalina's buffs involves her custom specials, which aren't allowed to be used in customs OFF battles.

But that still doesn't negate the fact that Rosalina got a buff with Luma. Having another buff that doesn't come into play doesn't make the one that does any less. Like I said before this isn't broken, but I don't think Rosalina needed to be buffed and that this change is making fighting Rosa more of a chore. Especially when we have characters like Palutena floundering around who didn't get diddly squat.

 

[Flawlessh]

Couple questions relating to the datadump posted by dan, regarding some olimar changes.

Apparently his aerials got changed in some way in the code, 1 letter changed,
-?SetBit(0x2000007a)
+?SetBit(0x2000007c)

the "a" changed to a "c", and some other moves changed the letter "a" to the number "8".

just wondering if this means anything, or if its just a recoding to organize pikmin better or something.

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/144-to-160/pikmin

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Probably a really dumb question so don't hate me for it, but how is power-shielding affected by all of this? Also just wanted to clarify, this is better for the more offensive player, right?

 

[Depth_]

Did shields have their hp nerfed? I'm seeing so many shield breaks.

 

[q_e_d]

Shield Breaker (Neutral Special) shield damage decreased 30 → 25

As in it's harder to break shields with it?

Yes.

The now universally changed shield stun makes shield breaking easier though, so it balances out a bit.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Sooo... with the changes to shield stun can now trap opponents in shield with flamethrower?

And Rocksmashing someone's shield is safer than before?

Hype!

 

[Zink Imp]

Yes.

The now universally changed shield stun makes shield breaking easier though, so it balances out a bit.

Interesting. I would rely on shield breaking a lot with the Falchions.

 

[Seniks]

Is anyone working on updating the rest of Samus' frame data? The Samus Skype group and I are very curious. We know that a couple of moves like fair and standing grab have had landing and ending lag reduced respectfully.

 

[Fanttum]

Probably a really dumb question so don't hate me for it, but how is power-shielding affected by all of this? Also just wanted to clarify, this is better for the more offensive player, right?

Indirect buff for power shields. They negate the extra shield stun taken.

Did shields have their hp nerfed? I'm seeing so many shield breaks.

Nope, they have always been weaker.

 

[pikazz]

Couple questions relating to the datadump posted by dan, regarding some olimar changes.

Apparently his aerials got changed in some way in the code, 1 letter changed,
-?SetBit(0x2000007a)
+?SetBit(0x2000007c)

the "a" changed to a "c", and some other moves changed the letter "a" to the number "8".

just wondering if this means anything, or if its just a recoding to organize pikmin better or something.

http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/diff/144-to-160/pikmin

its about a "Bit is Set" to a Variable. as it looks like the Variable was changed from IC-Basic 7A to IC-Basic 7C (could be wrong with the IC/Basic type)

so its really hard to tell cause we dont know what even the variables are for in smash4 at this point

 

[JAZZ_]

anyone else happy to see at least one of Samus' many broken moves finally getting SOME attention. I am :3

 

[LRodC]

The fully charged Shield Breaker seems to still break shields in one hit. Not really much of a nerf, if anything.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What's the difference between shield stun and shield hit lag?

Shield stun is what you suffer when you have your shield hit by a move.
Shield hit lag is what you suffer when you hit a shield.

 

[Uffe]

I think you have that a bit backwards. They fixed the customs because nobody used them.

Also I'm naively yet blissfully amused at how seething several people seem to be that shield lag is ending up similar to melee now.

Is shield lag ending up like Melee? That could be a good thing.

 

[Mr. Bulldops]

But that still doesn't negate the fact that Rosalina got a buff with Luma. Having another buff that doesn't come into play doesn't make the one that does any less. Like I said before this isn't broken, but I don't think Rosalina needed to be buffed and that this change is making fighting Rosa more of a chore. Especially when we have characters like Palutena floundering around who didn't get diddly squat.

The new shield changes supposedly make it easier for Palutena to use smashes without being punished, as noted in the thread.

The game as a whole is more aggressive now. We should wait and see rather than prematurely complaining. Everyone made premature complaints about the shield breaker nerfs, and now we know why the shield breaker nerfs were done. Are we really going to make the same mistake again right after?

 

[ChikoLad]

This isn't related to character balancing, but I noticed something the patch added that I haven't seen brought up and isn't in the OP of this topic, so I'll mention it for those who are interested - when posting replays to YouTube, you are now given a "Create Highlight Reel" option. Using it makes the game trim the replay to only include certain moments (how it decides them, I have no clue), so it's good if you only want certain moments or if you want really short uploads just to show key moments in a match.

Here's an example:

And here's the Miiverse post with the video so I don't have people jumping to the conclusion that I edited it from a PC. :V

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYQHAAABAACNUKFKJ4VeLA

 

[ARGHETH]

The fully charged Shield Breaker seems to still break shields in one hit. Not really much of a nerf, if anything.

Well, yeah, but nobody actually uses fully charged SB. It isn't really a nerf, but still.

 

[IcantWin]

Has Luigi never been able to Bair twice out of short hop or am I stupid.

 

[Dark Dire Wolf]

Shield stun is what you suffer when you have your shield hit by a move.
Shield hit lag is what you suffer when you hit a shield.

So if you get hit on the shield and let go of the shield button, are you in lag with the shield still present or without?

 

[Gearitz]

Is shield lag ending up like Melee? That could be a good thing.

Actually it's 2 frames more per 10%

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I feel as though that they intentionally avoided making a heavty amount of changes to most characters (barring Luigi and Samus), because they wanted to test and see how the new shieldstun mechanics change various styles of play. They probably know just how important a global change such as this one can be, so I am thinking that they are waiting to see how everything plays out before going back to making readjustments to the rest of the cast.

Luigi's grab game was changed to compensate for this, as it was the most potent in the game. Meaning that they plan on keeping the new shieldstun mechanics in the long run. Because since it'll probably be easier to land a grab with Luigi now (Fireball and falling aerials), they thought that it might've been a fair trade to exhange his extremely potent grab combos with the increased chance of landing a grab in the first place. To me, the intentions of this trade are very clear, as otherwise they would've edited other values to reduce Luigi's ability to land grabs, such as they did before with Fireballs (which didn't get changed this time around). Overall, the reason why they focused on Luigi in particular is because he is a character that is extremely reliant on his grabs, more-so than any other character. Meaning that they had to change him to go along with the new shieldstun mechanics. They even gave him additional buffs in his Dair and Dsmash to help compensate for his losses.

Samus, on the other hand, was simply buffed because she is commonly seen as being bad. Likewise for the Nair buffs given to Ganondorf and Bowser. And most Custom Moves that were buffed were seen as being bad anyways.

No idea about the Luma changes, but lol


Anyways, I am not too worried about this. They are probably saving the bigger patch changes for the future, such as when they start releasing new stages/DLC, or even the Ballot Characters. But those might take awhile anyways. Personally, I'm just going to give it time. I always do anyways, but regardless~

 

[Gearitz]

So if you get hit on the shield and let go of the shield button, are you in lag with the shield still present or without?

You can't do any out of shield actions for how many ever frames

 

[Dogmaster]

This isn't related to character balancing, but I noticed something the patch added that I haven't seen brought up and isn't in the OP of this topic, so I'll mention it for those who are interested - when posting replays to YouTube, you are now given a "Create Highlight Reel" option. Using it makes the game trim the replay to only include certain moments (how it decides them, I have no clue), so it's good if you only want certain moments or if you want really short uploads just to show key moments in a match.

Here's an example:

And here's the Miiverse post with the video so I don't have people jumping to the conclusion that I edited it from a PC. :V

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYQHAAABAACNUKFKJ4VeLA

I mentioned it like two pages ago

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So if you get hit on the shield and let go of the shield button, are you in lag with the shield still present or without?

Your shield will be present for whoever many frames of shieldstun the opponent's move inflicts.