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Mario Boards: General Discussion

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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A2ZOMG
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Nobody plays BBrawl. Brawl- is where it's at.
No, technically Brawl- is not where it's at. Frankly vBrawl still dominates the scene and personally I find it irrational how much trouble this community has gone through to make silly rules to work around the fact that Brawl is dominated by uncompetitive abuses and imbalances (largely revolving around Metaknight).

Yet people still run tournaments for this game. Which to me would imply that people find something redeeming about this game. It seems logical to me that it's much simpler to tweak the game to remove abuses rather than make rules that can both be difficult to enforce or agree on.

And true, there aren't many people that play BBrawl. And I highly suggest you look into it. Give it a spin and introduce it to your area. Everything in BBrawl just works better (and you really should check the BBrawl site if you haven't), and that makes it a better game with a lot of depth.

You do that, I'll eventually get around to doing hitbubbles. I'll probably need someone else to do video recording.
 

DtJ XeroXen

The biggest fraud
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The PAC for hitbubbles is more important than a video honestly. I want the PAC. :/ I need to see things with my eyes. (It's a -NEED- that I get this PAC)
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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A2ZOMG
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Kanzaki, the next time you mention anything about a wall of text, or make one yourself, I will personally slap you in the face. And I will do it IRL if we meet again.

And I agree Project M is probably going to dominate once it is officially released.
 

Inferno3044

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 31, 2008
Messages
3,755
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Teaneck, NJ/Richmond VA
Project M will most likely dominate.

Wall of text :]
Brawl- > Project M. It's more enjoyable because it's meant to be broken and fun.

Kanzaki, the next time you mention anything about a wall of text, or make one yourself, I will personally slap you in the face. And I will do it IRL if we meet again.

And I agree Project M is probably going to dominate once it is officially released.
You get trolled way too easily.

Wall of text proving that I'm right :bee:
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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A2ZOMG
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You get trolled way too easily.

Wall of text proving that I'm right :bee:
I don't care what you think. It's been proven on multiple accounts that you don't know what you're talking about. That's something I don't need a wall of text to explain.
 

Fire!

Smash Champion
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We only went up because Bowser went down. Oh well, I'll take it, lol
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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Bowser probably should go down further. When you have weaknesses like the worst recovery in the game and being one of the easiest characters in the game to juggle (along with Ike and Ganon), I honestly can't see how you can get anywhere. Especially when your safety from neutral position isn't even guaranteed. I mean Snake has a decent enough recovery and his Jab and tilts are retardedly good (not to mention grenades make spacing against him hard). What does Bowser have to compensate for his relative fragility?
 

DtJ XeroXen

The biggest fraud
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I'm gonna make so much low tier money. Ike honestly ****ed me up because his jab was annoying for me (even though I can still win the matchup if I play differently... pretty easily too). But yeah... MONEYYYYYYY! :D
 

Calebyte

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
1,257
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Santa Cruz, CA
Brawl- is doesn't appeal to me. BBrawl is cool but no one plays it so yeah. I don't really care about gameplay mods, tbh.

EDIT: What's up with all the drama on the Mario boards lately?
 

UberMario

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 17, 2009
Messages
3,312
Bowser probably should go down further. When you have weaknesses like the worst recovery in the game . . . . .
His recovery is not the worst, I can name plenty of characters with worse recoveries: Link, Ganon, Olimar [depends on the stage], Ivysaur [same boat as Olimar] and Ness. There is no way Bowser is worse at recovering than Link or "PK Touch me to Gimp or you have two whole seconds to stop me some other way".
 

UberMario

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Jun 17, 2009
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I didn't say it wasn't bad, I just said it's not the worst, however, it's near useless vertically, it's more of a horizontal recovery like DK's, but with less of a punch.

LOOK AT THE TIER LIST! IT'S A MARIO'S PARADISE IN LOW TIER!
True dat, bottom mid-tier isn't too shabby for him either, I have good hopes for a rise in v6, too bad I'm too out of the way to rep him, because I definitely would if it were not an hour or longer drive for nearly every tourney I've wanted to go to . . . . .
 

DtJ XeroXen

The biggest fraud
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UberMario, an hour or longer isn't really that bad. Every tournament within my area is AT LEAST 2 hours away. There hasn't been one that's been an hour away for over a year. :/ And I just turned 17... >_> traveling is hard as a minor with no car!
 

HeroMystic

Legacy of the Mario
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UberMario, an hour or longer isn't really that bad. Every tournament within my area is AT LEAST 2 hours away. There hasn't been one that's been an hour away for over a year. :/ And I just turned 17... >_> traveling is hard as a minor with no car!
I agree with this. An hour or two is a fine drive, and enough to get back to your home to do other things unless it's a big tourney.

It does stop it from being a spur-of-the-moment thing though.
 

Inferno3044

Smash Master
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Teaneck, NJ/Richmond VA
I don't care what you think. It's been proven on multiple accounts that you don't agree with me. That's something I don't need a wall of text to explain.
Fixed for accuracy

Bowser probably should go down further. When you have weaknesses like the worst recovery in the game and being one of the easiest characters in the game to juggle (along with Ike and Ganon), I honestly can't see how you can get anywhere. Especially when your safety from neutral position isn't even guaranteed. I mean Snake has a decent enough recovery and his Jab and tilts are retardedly good (not to mention grenades make spacing against him hard). What does Bowser have to compensate for his relative fragility?
Bowser's not that bad. First of all there are characters with worse recoveries than Bowser (it's still pretty bad) but like most people with recoveries like that, he just has to recover high. He is pretty easy to juggle and pretty slow but he has some things going for him. First of all, Bowser really packs a punch. Strong kill power and a lot of damage (klaw does 18% if fresh). He has an extremely good OOS option (UpB) which is definitely one of the best in the game and does a very good amount of damage (10-12 if SS). He has a good grab game with his GR tricks. His ftilt is an amazing spacing tool. It's fast and has a lot of range. He's also heavy as **** (I think heaviest in the game). He is a good defensive character but when an opponent gets in he's basically screwed. Bowser also gets very little rep. I only know of 2 good Bowser players: Vex and KingKong and I've seen both of their Bowser's. They're really good. I think he's in a good spot right now. Give or take.
 

Naisora

Smash Apprentice
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Aug 20, 2009
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180
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Glendale,California
So we are 1 tier up now, but we have to go for atleast Middle if we can. Since, I can see Mario atleast reaching there. Gonna have to try to rank higher with Mario in tournaments now..... so far recently i got like 7th out of 26 in a local, but everyone there mained high tiers :/ Used Mario and Kirby, but used Mario majority of the time, so......
 

DtJ XeroXen

The biggest fraud
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Who cares if we're low tier? I like low tier money. It's not like our character is going to magically get better if he's in mid tier. So I honestly don't give a ****. :/ I'm just going to focus on playing Mario. It's what I do.
 

condemned_soul

Smash Champion
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May 10, 2007
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detroit MI
Who cares if we're low tier? I like low tier money. It's not like our character is going to magically get better if he's in mid tier. So I honestly don't give a ****. :/ I'm just going to focus on playing Mario. It's what I do.
cant say it any better then this. if i knew how i would sig this lol
 

Kanzaki

Smash Champion
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Orange County, CA
Lucas and Mario both still in low tier. Me and 3des gonna **** low tier doubles xD


And did a lil scrawny asian kid threaten to slap me? I wanna see.

Wall of text :]
 

A2ZOMG

Smash Legend
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His recovery is not the worst, I can name plenty of characters with worse recoveries: Link, Ganon, Olimar [depends on the stage], Ivysaur [same boat as Olimar] and Ness. There is no way Bowser is worse at recovering than Link or "PK Touch me to Gimp or you have two whole seconds to stop me some other way".
This is so easy to argue against it's ridiculous.

Dude, nobody cares about horizontal recovery if you have good DI, which EVERY GOOD PLAYER has. There is literally no character in this game who has any issues with horizontal recovery as long as you DI correctly. That is the only kind of recovery Bowser is "good" at. He fails HORRIBLY at everything else that ACTUALLY matters.

What actually matters in this game for recovering:
1. Vertical distance
2. Having a REASONABLE airdodge
3. Having access to some form of safe priority (safe as in low lag and good disjoint plus decent anti-juggle properties)
4. Being able to land on stage safely
5. Ledge options
6. Momentum mixup options

Bowser is basically the worst character in the game at virtually all the categories I mentioned. What Bowser's recovery does is it basically moves STRAIGHT TOWARDS YOU ASKING TO BE *****. No other recovery in the game is nearly this helpless. Except for maybe Kirby's recovery in the G&W matchup.

I know you mentioned DK's recovery as a comparison. DK's Up-B is completely different from Bowser. Firstoff it actually goes far and fast enough to escape some traps unlike Bowser's. Second it actually has existent priority. Lastly it has the option of landing onstage virtually laglessly, while Bowser's does not. Oh and it gets more vertical distance and it OUTLASTS LEDGE INVINCIBILITY. Now while DK does still actually have many of Bowser's problems in recovering safely, they are MUCH less severe. And he has a momentum brake option. DK's recovery >>>>>> Bowser's.

Link's recovery is leagues better than Bowser's. Sure you can argue he hates getting gimped more, but he can actually prevent it better than Bowser. He has projectiles, a decent N-air/F-air, and even though his vertical distance might not look impressive, it is better than Bowser's, and that matters MUCH MORE than what little horizontal distance Bowser gains. A Link player who DIs well doesn't have to helplessly fly into your **** zone. He can bat you away, and *gasp* has something that resembles vertical mixup options unlike Bowser.

Ganon's recovery is kinda the same story as Link's, minus the projectiles. His recovery is worse than Link's, but still significantly less punishable than Bowser's.

Olimar is floaty and has a good midair jump and airdodge. And his tether gets good vertical reach AND he has access to immediate and lagless Super Armor. His recovery is easily much safer than Bowser's.

You obviously have not played any good Nesses if you think Ness has a worse recovery than Bowser. I play ViceGrip, one of the best Ness players in the country. Yeah, Ness's recovery is iffy, but he gets a lot more vertical distance than Bowser. His F-air is gay to challenge while he's recovering, and he can Magnet Stall to mix up his momentum. A good Ness player who knows how to recover in reverse is actually annoyingly hard to gimp. At any rate his options are clearly much more diverse than Bowser's for successfully keeping his opponent away from him.

Ivysaur I guess has a comparably bad recovery to Bowser's, but it's actually debatable who has the worse recovery. Ivysaur has a kinda low commitment projectile and of course gets more vertical distance than Bowser. Plus Bowser's airdodge is fail.

Bowser's not that bad. First of all there are characters with worse recoveries than Bowser (it's still pretty bad) but like most people with recoveries like that, he just has to recover high. He is pretty easy to juggle and pretty slow but he has some things going for him. First of all, Bowser really packs a punch. Strong kill power and a lot of damage (klaw does 18% if fresh). He has an extremely good OOS option (UpB) which is definitely one of the best in the game and does a very good amount of damage (10-12 if SS). He has a good grab game with his GR tricks. His ftilt is an amazing spacing tool. It's fast and has a lot of range. He's also heavy as **** (I think heaviest in the game). He is a good defensive character but when an opponent gets in he's basically screwed. Bowser also gets very little rep. I only know of 2 good Bowser players: Vex and KingKong and I've seen both of their Bowser's. They're really good. I think he's in a good spot right now. Give or take.
I'll go back to my point that basically he's trying to compete with Ivysaur for how awful his recovery actually is against someone who knows how to edgeguard.

Bowser's strengths are okay, except with the kind of safety he actually has on stage, he requires twice the survivability of Snake, when in actuality he's a very fragile character who cannot afford to take many hits. When Bowser gets hit, he tends to get comboed, and don't tell me that damage is just damage. Once Bowser is offstage and over 100%, if you have good reaction time, he's basically dead. He can do nothing to get back on his feet reliably when he's over 100% and forced to use his recovery. His ledge options basically don't exist at that point, and his options to escape juggles never really existed in the first place. When you put this into perspective, Bowser's huge weight is actually working against his survivability by making him easily comboed and thus limiting his ability to successfully implement his ledge options, which he NEEDS in order to recover successfully.

Honestly there are a decent number of characters that have cool stuff to do onstage. But Bowser is clearly at a unique disadvantage when compared to all the other interesting characters in this game who have by far better survivability than he does. No living to 180% does not immediately count as good survivability. With that I rest my case.

Actually almost forgot. Ike's recovery is actually really really awful but underexploited. You don't have to perfectly edgehog it to **** it. Since he doesn't sweetspot the edge with Up-B, you can basically do the Melee gimp tactic on Ike where you grab the ledge, and use your invincibility frames to hit him out of his Up-B. And of course gimping Ike's SideB is basically a matter of seeing it and hovering in front of it.
 

UberMario

Smash Master
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3,312
This is so easy to argue against it's ridiculous.

Dude, nobody cares about horizontal recovery if you have good DI, which EVERY GOOD PLAYER has.
Clearly DK is screwed aswell, because having a horizontal recovery is apparently useless, Wario's Bike, Quick Draw, Skull Bash, Shuttle Loop, Glide Toss, Fox Illusion/Falco Phantasm, Double Slap's push, Shield Breaker's push, [Lucas'] PSI Magnet's push, Spin Dash, Squall Hammer, Green Missle, FLUDD's push, Egg Toss's push, [Samus'] bomb push, and gliding in general give no benefits to the user, since they are horizontally based and do not give that much vertical boost, if any.

I fail to see how nobody cares about horizontal recoveries since half of these are used constantly to recover . . . . . .

You obviously have not played any good Nesses if you think Ness has a worse recovery than Bowser. I play ViceGrip, one of the best Ness players in the country. Yeah, Ness's recovery is iffy, but he gets a lot more vertical distance than Bowser. His F-air is gay to challenge while he's recovering, and he can Magnet Stall to mix up his momentum. A good Ness player who knows how to recover in reverse is actually annoyingly hard to gimp. At any rate his options are clearly much more diverse than Bowser's for successfully keeping his opponent away from him.
Not really sure what to say about this, for the most part I just see if the trajectory Ness is going to head at is geared toward the stage itself or the edge and react accordingly. (If FLUDD wasn't an option beforehand) If it's aimed at the stage but can still grab the ledge, I edgeguard then short hop off of it to attack while Ness' freefall/landing lag is still in play.

Actually almost forgot. Ike's recovery is actually really really awful but underexploited. You don't have to perfectly edgehog it to **** it. Since he doesn't sweetspot the edge with Up-B, you can basically do the Melee gimp tactic on Ike where you grab the ledge, and use your invincibility frames to hit him out of his Up-B. And of course gimping Ike's SideB is basically a matter of seeing it and hovering in front of it.
This is one of the primary reasons why I believe he should have stayed low tier, the others are his somewhat higher-than-average gravity and low ground/air speed.
 
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