Mario Boards: General Discussion

[A2ZOMG]

Clearly DK is screwed aswell, because having a horizontal recovery is apparently useless, Wario's Bike, Quick Draw, Skull Bash, Shuttle Loop, Glide Toss, Fox Illusion/Falco Phantasm, Double Slap's push, Shield Breaker's push, [Lucas'] PSI Magnet's push, Spin Dash, Squall Hammer, Green Missle, FLUDD's push, Egg Toss's push, [Samus'] bomb push, and gliding in general give no benefits to the user, since they are horizontally based and do not give that much vertical boost, if any.

I fail to see how nobody cares about horizontal recoveries since half of these are used constantly to recover . . . . . .

Horizontal recovery options are an okay bonus but are very very far from necessary for actually recovering successfully. Good DI usually is more than enough to cover the horizontal aspect of recovery, and what is MUCH more important is having vertical mixup. All the characters you mentioned actually have vertical options which COMBINED with their horizontal options (which fall better under the category of momentum altering as opposed to actual practical recovery purposes) make their recoveries much harder to react to.

Wario's Bike is actually primarily a vertical recovery option. I don't get why you even listed it. Wario's recovery of course would be complete trash without it since he would suffer the same problems Bowser does when recovering due to his priority being bad and lacking many other vertical mixup options.

Quick Draw is a bad recovery move. Doesn't really need to be mentioned here.

Skull Bash is only a good recovery move in momentum cancels. The occasional mixup altering fallspeed is SOMETIMES useful, but it's actually a subpar recovery move for the most part besides that.

You do realize that the reason why all of Metaknight's recovery moves are good is because of their vertical mixup potential right? Metaknight's ability to glide has a LOT of vertical mixup potential and if he couldn't alter his trajectory while gliding, it would be nearly useless.

Fox and Falco's SideBs are actually vertical mixup tools by themselves. They have high jumps and fall speed that is very hard to react to (and Fox can shinestall to make things even more confusing). Bowser doesn't have anything like that to reduce how telegraphed his recovery is. Oh and by the way Fox and Falco also do have the option of Up-Bing, not that it's very good, but the option exists.

Instead of Doubleslap, I assume you mean Pound. Again it actually works as a vertical recovery option and it alters Jigg's fallspeed patterns allowing to evade some forms of edgeguarding.

Marth's rarely ever recover with shieldbreaker, and it's usually a bad idea.

Sonic players don't use spindash for recovery. The Homing attack and Up-B by far are much more useful.

Squall Hammer is only good when both Ice Climbers are together, as it allows Nana to have a more reliable vertical recovery. Otherwise when they are alone, it's a complete garbage recovery move.

Luigi's Green Missile is actually only used because of the threat of the Cyclone giving Luigi an impressive vertical recovery. Without the Cyclone Luigi's SideB would be a complete garbage recovery move.

FLUDD push is nearly useless for distance (if it even gets you any distance at all which I am very doubtful of) and you're better off using that to deflect people who are edgeguarding you. Don't try to convince me otherwise.

Egg Toss's push is not actually for distance. It's for making sure you can avoid getting edgehogged. It is very similar in practical use to Mario's Cape, which MANY MARIO MAINS STILL USE INCORRECTLY.

Samus's Bombs are somewhat telegraphed but actually serve as momentum stallers, similar to Fox's Shine. They are more or less unnecessary for actual distance, but they are valuable for momentum altering, which is MORE IMPORTANT than horizontal recovery.

And I already explained that the real purpose of gliding is not actually to gain horizontal distance. It's a vertical mixup option.

Bowser is the one character in the game who lacks ANY real vertical mixup in his recovery. Bowser's recovery options don't compare to the options you mentioned. They have next to nothing in common in practical use.

And as for DK, his recovery isn't very good, but it's much better than Bowser's. His Up-B gets more vertical AND horizontal distance, can land safely onstage, outlasts edgehogs, and actually has priority. Things which Bowser's recovery doesn't have, and virtually every other recovery in the game does.

Not really sure what to say about this, for the most part I just see if the trajectory Ness is going to head at is geared toward the stage itself or the edge and react accordingly. (If FLUDD wasn't an option beforehand) If it's aimed at the stage but can still grab the ledge, I edgeguard then short hop off of it to attack while Ness' freefall/landing lag is still in play.

Firstoff most players will DI well. Under this assumption most Ness players will try to leave the option of landing on stage open, and they will assume that it is hard for you to challenge their F-air and D-air directly. If they know where Mario's Cape/FLUDD Zone is, they will usually start up Up-B outside of that zone, and if they have any sense in how to aim PKT2, they will make it VERY difficult to actually apply your gimp tools on Ness's PKT, since if they DIed well, you also have to worry about covering their option of grabbing the ledge normally.

Ness's recovery isn't spectacular, but it is very very far from being nearly as terrible as Bowser's recovery.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

You mind if I use this pic to troll the Bowser boards?

lol go ahead

 

[UberMario]

Wario's Bike is actually primarily a vertical recovery option.

I guess that's a matter of taste then, the way I see it, it's used horizontally as the vertical benefit would be worthless without it.

Quick Draw is a bad recovery move. Doesn't really need to be mentioned here.

Why not? It's obviously a horizontal recovery.

Skull Bash is only a good recovery move in momentum cancels. The occasional mixup altering fallspeed is SOMETIMES useful, but it's actually a subpar recovery move for the most part besides that.

Skull Bash is a good move to get back on stage, especially since you can combine it with Quick Attack to recover.

You do realize that the reason why all of Metaknight's recovery moves are good is because of their vertical mixup potential right? Metaknight's ability to glide has a LOT of vertical mixup potential and if he couldn't alter his trajectory while gliding, it would be nearly useless.

Nothing to argue with here, though gliding is more horizontal than not.

Fox and Falco's SideBs are actually vertical mixup tools by themselves. They have high jumps and fall speed that is very hard to react to (and Fox can shinestall to make things even more confusing). Bowser doesn't have anything like that to reduce how telegraphed his recovery is. Oh and by the way Fox and Falco also do have the option of Up-Bing, not that it's very good, but the option exists.

While true, that does not stop the fact that they are truly horizontal moves, they gain no vertical momentum from them.

Instead of Doubleslap, I assume you mean Pound. Again it actually works as a vertical recovery option and it alters Jigg's fallspeed patterns allowing to evade some forms of edgeguarding.

Yeah, I meant Pound, and how is it a VERTICAL option? It's directional influence is near perfectly horizontal.

Marth's rarely ever recover with shieldbreaker, and it's usually a bad idea.

True, but it's still a potential way to recover nonetheless.

Sonic players don't use spindash for recovery. The Homing attack and Up-B by far are much more useful.

While it isn't used as such, it still can be used for horizontal recovery if the situation makes using Spring Jump or Homing Attack more unsafe.

Squall Hammer is only good when both Ice Climbers are together, as it allows Nana to have a more reliable vertical recovery. Otherwise when they are alone, it's a complete garbage recovery move.

Solo Squall Hammer is still thousands of time better than Solo Relay.

Luigi's Green Missile is actually only used because of the threat of the Cyclone giving Luigi an impressive vertical recovery. Without the Cyclone Luigi's SideB would be a complete garbage recovery move.

Wait . . . what? It's still a horizontal recovery move, even if it's used before or after Luigi's Mid-Air Jump + Cyclone.

FLUDD push is nearly useless for distance (if it even gets you any distance at all which I am very doubtful of) and you're better off using that to deflect people who are edgeguarding you. Don't try to convince me otherwise.

I beg to differ, it influences the trajectory decently and is a good way to avoid being potentially killed by an aerial. I've also used it as a recovery aswell. (BTW, regardless of FLUDD's charge it pushes with the same force, so a fully chargd FLUDD push is the equivalent of using a non-charged FLUDD MAYBE twice. The midair uses of this are really underrated, it's as useful for altering (or even REVERSING) DI as the cape)

Egg Toss's push is not actually for distance. It's for making sure you can avoid getting edgehogged.

Actually it is for distance, no matter how many times you use it, it gives the same vertical boost, which if used with horizontal momentum can send you a good ways over the stage. You still fall a bit, but it's comparable to cape stalling or shining.

It is very similar in practical use to Mario's Cape, which MANY MARIO MAINS STILL USE INCORRECTLY.

Except the cape is used for altering recovery timing, Egg Toss IS the recovery.

Samus's Bombs are somewhat telegraphed but actually serve as momentum stallers, similar to Fox's Shine. They are more or less unnecessary for actual distance, but they are valuable for momentum altering, which is MORE IMPORTANT than horizontal recovery.

Samus' Bombs are really useful for horizontal recovering, and still leave you with your Up B.

And I already explained that the real purpose of gliding is not actually to gain horizontal distance. It's a vertical mixup option.

It's both.

Firstoff most players will DI well. Under this assumption most Ness players will try to leave the option of landing on stage open, and they will assume that it is hard for you to challenge their F-air and D-air directly. If they know where Mario's Cape/FLUDD Zone is, they will usually start up Up-B outside of that zone, and if they have any sense in how to aim PKT2, they will make it VERY difficult to actually apply your gimp tools on Ness's PKT, since if they DIed well, you also have to worry about covering their option of grabbing the ledge normally.

You don't even need to gimp them with cape or fludd. If you [cape stall grab] edgehog and they still get past, you have time to get up and get a free hit before they can properly move if you see it coming in time. (Which with Ness is pretty easy, Lucas too)

 

[Kanzaki]

Why do I have to scroll so much to be at the bottom of the page to post a reply?

Oh yea, wall of texts.

 

[Inferno3044]

A2 wants to discuss so I will be nice and reply. Horizontal recovery options are extremely important. If anything, good DI covers your vertical recovery. You're generally aiming for the corner of the death zone meaning that you should be high enough to recover. All that remains is moving horizontally. Vertical help like Bike is just used so you can be higher up and stay out of their reach. I'm not saying that vertical recovery is bad. I'm just saying horizontal recovery is good and very helpful. Btw, Fox and Falco's sideB are completely horizontal recovery options.

LOL at DK having a higher vertical recovery than Bowser. DK has the worst recovery in the game when it comes to vertical distance.

Why do I have to scroll so much to be at the bottom of the page to post a reply?

Oh yea, wall of texts.

You already know.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

You boards are so silly. Whysoserious all the time?

 

[hippiedude92]

You boards are so silly. Whysoserious all the time?

yo j3wm0nkey

come to vc8

sexy regional

every1 cumminnn

then we can have mario ffa with kirin =D

and perhaps homo secks

n stuff

plzzz,

 

[A2ZOMG]

Inferno and Uber, you're avoiding my point. No character in the game has any trouble recovering horizontally. The REAL purpose of recovery moves is to alter your momentum especially vertically. Even if it doesn't look like you're gaining any height from using Fox's SideB, the fact of the matter is that the most important part of his SideB is the vertical mixup he has when using it. No edgeguarder cares how far you can move horizontally when recovering (if they know where you're gonna go, you WILL get hit). What they do care about is how easy it is to cover multiple vertical zones. The way Fox and Falco's SideB works is that even though they have bad priority, it is very difficult for most characters to cover all the vertical options SideB is able to cover potentially safely.

And please stop misunderstanding the actual purpose of "horizontal" recovery moves. Horizontal recovery moves are complete garbage without a reliable vertical mixup option to fall back on.

Bowser however has the worst vertical recovery in the game, and vertical recovery is infinitely more important than horizontal recovery because it determines how well you can avoid punishes offstage. Bowser also lacks the ability to land onstage safely, and his edge options are some of the worst in the game especially after he hits 100%. He's both easy to edgehog or punish whether or not he's going for the edge or trying to land on stage. It doesn't take a brain to cover both those options at the same time when edgeguarding Bowser.

I'll restate it: What Bowser's recovery does is it basically moves STRAIGHT TOWARDS YOU ASKING TO BE *****.

Now please try to tell me how anyone has a worse recovery than Bowser when you put into perspective that his recovery is both easy to punish and not hard to gimp (use a move that spikes or semispikes him. He can't avoid it). In fact Ganon goes about even with Bowser for the simple reason that Bowser's recovery is worse than Ganons and Ganon can gimp it EXTREMELY easily.

 

[Kanzaki]

I was just wondering why Mario is in the low tiers. Before I get into what I mean, allow me to first put out there that I have been playing for years, and I have watched MANY videos of the tournament masters.

My brother and I found out, through years of play, literally EVERY advanced technique in the game, except the wavedash, which we stumbled upon, but wrote off as simply hilarious. I was surprised to find that all the wacky observations we have encountered and adapted are actually defined in the glossary in the sticky topic above! Three of the particularly surprising terms that I could not believe had been widely known and utilized were the Phantom Hit (I just thought I had a glitchy game) and that effect where recovering at the right time from attacks that sent you flying results in an upward boost if you jump out/air dodge/whatever early enough (I cannot remember what it was called in the sticky), and the waveland.

Now, I have been using Mario against my brother lately, and he cannot seem to beat me. We think we know why, and we think it puts Mario at the top of the tiers. I will be brief. Mario has his air forward. We call it 'The Punch.' It has that special hitbox like a sword, hence it goes right through anything except an attack with that same type of hitbox. It does 17% max, is relatively fast executing, has basically instant recovery on a barrier cancel, and is quite massive, killing at rather low percentages.

If he misses, he can just do his A punch if the opponent tries to retaliate, or shield/roll. I am telling you, Mario is a crazy meat mountain who crushes bones with many attacks doing 15+%, survives to insane damages thanks to his weight, and has ridiculous horizontal recovery (Double Jump, Mario Kick Down B, ANOTHER Double Jump, ARE YOU SERIOUS, Up B).

Next, check his roll. It goes like half screen. It makes him rather fast, nearly eliminating his speed problem on the ground, and a great character when it comes to the defensive game. It pretty much eliminates the need for his wavedash, which, with Mario, who needs to do most of his attacking from hops, is pretty much useless already unless you are looking to smash attack. Wavesmashing, however, in my opinion, is also a bad idea, because, in the time and damage it takes you to actually land a smash, you could have just used The Punch and killed you opponent by then.

Even though he has to fight mostly in the air, 3 of his 4 air attacks are pretty fast, and are quite massive. A major advantage he has is that nearly all his attacks move the opponent considerably, and can topple him from 0%, so his opponent gets little to no counterattack opportunity.

The only explanation I can find for why he is low on the tiers is that no one has used him seriously. I think he really keeps up, if not tops, the top tier characters.

I really do not like to simply shoot my mouth, and I am not one who thinks it right to shower a character in encomium, and never actually prove anything. Is there online for this somewhere, or is that simply wishful thinking? If not, please do not yell at me and stuff until you at least check out The Punch. Goes right through projectiles, goes right through attacks, goes right through faces. Please just give Mario another shot and tell me what you thnk.

Final Comment: People have a tendency to think that posts from newcomers to a board but veterans of its respective game are saying they are better than everyone else, regardles of what the post actually says. Please note that I did not say 'I am better than you' or 'Mario is better than Bowser.' I said, essentially: 'Mario seems to be great. These are his strengths. He may top Metaknight. Check him out and see if you agree.' I will say, however, that I am a full master of Mario.

 

[vato_break]

im the best mario

EDIT i also best have the best combo video and probably bring in the mario results lmao you all suck. except for kanzaki since he's west coast too.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Bowser sucks nuff said, he been sucked ever since Melee and no, I'm not trolling here. God, he's terrible... like srsly..

 

[Reducas]

lmao lil g

 

[Matt07]

I don't think Bowser's that bad, he's pretty decent. And in my opinion, I think he could actually reach mid-tier.

 

[KirinBlaze]

oooooolawd

 

[A2ZOMG]

Bowser would be decent (mid tier) if he actually had a good recovery (it's the reason why Snake survives forever). Having somewhat above average reward on hit or grab however doesn't cut it for a character who also has below average safety and extreme fragility. If you think he takes hits well, I suggest you learn how to edgeguard and edgetrap. And juggle for that matter. Bowser is completely free offstage. He will always recover the same way in pretty much the same trajectory since if he tries anything fancy, you have all the time in the world to punish anyway. Even if he SOMEHOW makes it to the ledge safely, you have guaranteed damage + a KO or reset on him no matter what he does to get up provided his damage is over 100%.

 

[Inferno3044]

im the best mario

EDIT i also best have the best combo video and probably bring in the mario results lmao you all suck. except for kanzaki since he's west coast too.

I was the only best Mario main at Apex.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

.....................o.o

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

im the best mario

EDIT i also best have the best combo video and probably bring in the mario results lmao you all suck. except for kanzaki since he's west coast too.

MONEY MAAAAAAAAAAATCH?!

It's only Midwest, you'd totally win.

 

[mars16]

Bowser sucks nuff said, he been sucked ever since Melee and no, I'm not trolling here. God, he's terrible... like srsly..

Bowser Don't suck!

Just hasn't reached full potient... poteintchu....Hu.. how do you spell that?

Poteintull yet

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Ok, go rep Bowser's side instead of us. To me, he's not that good. Sorry.

 

[UberMario]

Bowser Don't suck!

Just hasn't reached full potient... poteintchu....Hu.. how do you spell that?

Poteintull yet

Potential. If you believe you are spelling something incorrectly, type it into Google or use Firefox's auto spell-check (not available in IE).

So there was only a single Mario at Apex? . . . . . . wow

 

[Inferno3044]

Potential. If you believe you are spelling something incorrectly, type it into Google or use Firefox's auto spell-check (not available in IE).

So there was only a single Mario at Apex? . . . . . . wow

Mario main. There were other people who played Mario. Just nobody that mained him but me. I'm kinda counting Kirin as a Link main because I remember him telling me he likes Link more but he's just a garbage character.

 

[Delta-cod]

Silly Inferno, both Link and Mario are garbage characters.

 

[hippiedude92]

difference between being a true main mario =/= having a **** pocket mario

look at [a]tomsk's falco, pocket **** is better than like 90% of falco mains lolol

inb4namesearch

 

[Famous]

The majority of half decent smashers can have a good pocket Falco...you wont see that many pocket Mario's floating around to begin with, let alone them actually being good...

 

[Inferno3044]

Silly Inferno, both Link and Mario are garbage characters.

Says the Yoshi main.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The majority of half decent smashers can have a good pocket Falco...you wont see that many pocket Mario's floating around to begin with, let alone them actually being good...

This. Besides that laser camping requires some kind of intelligence to do right...Falco is just a stupid character in general.

 

[Fire!]

So legit though.

 

[Bartolon]

I am soooooo inconsistent with mario <.<

 

[Coolwhip]

I am soooooo inconsistent with mario <.<

Well, that's your problem.

 

[HeroMystic]

For all Mario mains posting on the tier list... could you just like... stop posting?

 

[Inferno3044]

For all Mario mains posting on the tier list... could you just like... stop posting?

I know what you're talking about. Deltacod only used my name because he actually knows me. I am perfectly fine with Mario in low tier. Means I don't gotta pick up someone for low tier tourneys.

 

[Kanzaki]

Inferno, we should combine our minds together and make a great.

Wall.

of.

Text.

 

[HeroMystic]

I know what you're talking about. Deltacod only used my name because he actually knows me. I am perfectly fine with Mario in low tier. Means I don't gotta pick up someone for low tier tourneys.

You don't have to explain yourself, I know you're legit.

It's just, this always happens on every tier list. A few Mario mains whine, various posters retaliate, a certain Ike main says he should be in bottom five, then Momma Mario goes into her menstruation cycle.

 

[Matt07]

Yea, I was reading through the tier list, supposedly all Mario mains sound the same?

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

What's going on in the tier list thread? >_> Why the hell is anybody posting in it anyway?

 

[Inferno3044]

Inferno, we should combine our minds together and make a great.

Wall.

of.

Text.

This times infinity.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

guise i herd thres a porof raeding tihng hrer, if its treu we cnn fnally udernstnd rducas now


EDIT: Nevermind, I've been lied to/trolled hard.

 

[Inferno3044]

guise i herd thres a porof raeding tihng hrer, if its treu we cnn fnally udernstnd rducas now


EDIT: Nevermind, I've been lied to/trolled hard.

I wish I was able to read this.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

c'mon! Try harder!