Lumine Hall - Ness Video and Critique Thread

[Meccs]

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/v/5740814
at 1:08 I play IceArrow in winners semis.
first match is embarrassing. I had the lead in game 3 I should've just switched to super defensive mode. Sheik juggles so well tho. I kinda of freak out when I start to get juggled, which I really need to work on. then i play twice in a row (against IA again the second time in losers semis, a Pikachu the first set) at 2:09.

 

[Asa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bChw8jJuhE vs Karna(sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECew5BVDj60 vs Karna(sheik)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yv_HWAdZy-E vs AvoiD(fox/falcon - lots of sds lol)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjD1bKqaS7s vs Whispy (jiggs/diddy)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KTm27UvMv8 vs Tipy(toonlink)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CghjWvG-9hU vs Grim (Falcon - lost 3:2 but first game didn't get recorded)

 

[Asa]

@ Meccs

You need to be a lot more slippery against sheik. More rolls when she has committed to a fair, sheilding more, etc. Main issue you had was recovery. do your pkt2 lower, sheik will have to commit harder to try to gimp you. Double jumping at her with an attack by the ledge isn't a good idea since she'll likely shield it and hit you away again. One particular example of this is when sheik gets you offstage and fishes you, then fades back as you try to double jump and retaliate; she'll be in the perfect position to dodge your atk and hit you with a fair, putting you in a very bad spot (happened first game iirc).

Usmash is also good at covering empty hops without committing to jumping.

 

[Noa.]

http://www.twitch.tv/avgl/v/5262311
Skip to 1 hour 16 min.
Please help. I got grabbed like a billion times. That is the biggest problem I have. Getting back to the stage safely from the ledge, and avoiding grabs.
The first match is good, tho.

Ok so I know this is like two weeks later, but I hope you still appreciate some advice haha! I've been wanting to critique but I've been busy.

You're doing very well using dash attack to capture his landings and grabs.

Very nice pkt2 kill.

Using a lot of pk fire on a grounded opponent. Obviously it's not a bad option, but you have to be a bit more sparing with them. You always use it when he enters a certain range to so that makes it more telegraphed. You tend to use it at max range. You should maybe try to do it at less than max range when you're making hard reads. Just be more careful with pk fire and mix it up more.

Also when you pk thunder and you can't hit your opponent, just hit yourself into the ground. It's a lot safer than just letting them run up and hit you.

Nice use of usmash.

The reason why this player is really good at juggling you and trapping you is that his reaction time is on point. He reacts immediately to your choices. He's playing a much faster game than you. You need to improve your reaction time and here's another thing. I feel like you make decisions like, ok I'm going to roll onto stage. Instead you should be making the decision that you're going to roll onto stage and then sh nair to pk thunder. Like when you make decisions you have to decide to do a string of moves, not just one. You want to reduce the amount of time in between each of your actions. This gives players less time to react to you and just leaves less windows of opportunity where you're doing nothing. Maybe you already know this. In which case keep on keeping on and apply it more. The Diddy right now is taking it further.

Like just now you ledge jumped, fast fell onto the ground and roll towards the stage. It was so fluid and quick and a decent option. He didn't punish it. Just you have to think of your ledge options as more than just what you do off the ledge. But also what you do once you are off the ledge.

FD is a difficult stage to get back onto from the ledge because you can't jump to a platform. So it's nice that you went to battlefield. Maybe you should have banned FD against this Diddy. Does he usually pick counterpicks? If he doesn't then I would have banned FD.

You have a lot of good use of pk thunder. And also some bad use. I think this is really good though. I think the great nesses will be separated from the good nesses by their use of pk thunder in the future. You use it in very interesting ways. I think it's important to find out when and how to use pk thunder. So I suggest you continue experimenting using pk thunder. It'll cost you occasionally in the short term, but I feel like in the long term it'll push you forward.

You just keep ledge jumping. Mix it up. Normal getup to shield or jab is actually a pretty decent option to. You have to stop just ledge jumping though.

Screw pro controllers.

Ok twitch is being a ***** and not loading the third match. I'll just leave it at that. I hope you found some of this useful @ Meccs !

 

[Meccs]

Thank you, Noa! I know one of my flaws is I'm not exactly a quick decision maker. Which makes me really susceptible to being juggled, among other things. It's like I just can't focus or something. Idk like I had an awesome 1-4 stock doubles comeback (still waiting on the replay) the other day and the amount of concentration I had during that was just so much more than I've ever had, it was like playing the game completely differently. Also I'm bad at getting back from the ledge. And rewatching my matches, especially the Pikachu one below, the amount of PK Fire I'm using is gross. I think at least with the Pikachu one I was trying to set the Thunder Jolts on fire but still. Too much.

And I'd usually ban FD against Diddy but I think most of my wins against that player have actually come on FD, so I don't really worry about it against him.

Some sets from last week were uploaded to Youtube so I figure I'd post them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ciodOrdfWM (vs Pikachu)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6PW2z6ga0I (vs Sheik)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrdWCC87c5s (vs Sheik)

 

[Lukingordex]

There's this Bo5 set where I won the first two matches (he was going to win the first one but he killed himself) and them lost the last 3 (Vs Pikachu/ZSS): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWZWJWYt7og


Also I REALLY need help against this Captain Falcon guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha6ysXo3u1A
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3jI1kJdwc

He also plays sheik but for some reason I tend to go mostly even against his Sheik, but when he goes falcon he tends to destroy me.

 

[Asa]

Also I REALLY need help against this Captain Falcon guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha6ysXo3u1A

against falcon..
G1: way too thirsty for the grab at kill percents. Not abusing falcon's recovery enough. You can hit him with pkt, pkf, dsmash as he's coming up, dtilt, etc. You should be waiting more, and be careful when you jump.. falcon can get in pretty easy with teleport grabs or dash atk if you're not careful.

G2: Why'd you go to halberd? You were doing well catching his jumps off the ledge with uair. You probably should've had the game if you were more aware when you pkt'd into him. That recovery there in general was pretty sloppy. Recovery at the end of your second stock was sloppy too; should've just gone for a pkt2 earlier instead of jumping into dtilt. All of your recoveries that game were bad lol. Use pkt2 earlier and go for the ledge more.

G3: o.

 

[Meccs]

One of the few good things from a recent match. Try it on Falcon/Sheik/Fox among others.

 

[Asa]

what a fantastic airdodge

 

[chuky]

Hello Ness lovers,

Check out my small video showing some ness combos.
https://youtu.be/jBVx5krobd8

Love Chuky

 

[Yink]

Hello Ness lovers,

Check out my small video showing some ness combos.
https://youtu.be/jBVx5krobd8

Love Chuky

Hello! We actually have a thread for Videos, so I've gone ahead and moved your post to the Vidoe/Critique thread. Please remember to post videos here in the future. Thank you!

 

[Noa.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CghjWvG-9hU vs Grim (Falcon - lost 3:2 but first game didn't get recorded)

Ok this is really late but whatever haha. What gave you the most trouble was his uair juggling, and how well he spaced his ftilts and jabs against you on the floor.

Uair is really hard to combat just because of it's huge hitbox and speed. At least they nerfed Falcon's uair in the latest patch. Just trying to reset to the ledge is probably the best way to get around it. Airdodging through Falcon's uair is scary since he can follow up your air dodge with a punish.

Grim used Falcon's superior ground game very well. All of the options that we have that beat Falcon's ftilt and jab are heavy commitments. You can space a good pk fire, dash attack, or just do a pk thunder and hit his head. But you need some stage control and a read to use those options. On the ledge the only way to get past it really is to just full hop over falcon, which will lead to more uair juggles, or to try to roll past it which is really hard.

Two very difficult situations to get past as Ness lol. Idk what other options we have for those Falcon specific situations.

You did a very good job edge guarding him in the earlier matches though. You didn't let him get back on for free. And you also had a nice use of aerial pk fires.

I suppose you could do better at maximizing your combo damage from dthrows. That would help you a lot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3jI1kJdwc

He also plays sheik but for some reason I tend to go mostly even against his Sheik, but when he goes falcon he tends to destroy me.

Ok funny that I'm doing two sets against Falcon.

Really where you're showing your biggest weakness is when you're recovering against Falcon. You need to mix it up more and not make it as easy for him to gimp you. If you watch Asa's set against Grim, you'll see that when Asa uses pkt2 offstage to recover, he's doing it really close to the stage. You do it very far away from the stage. You should recover close to the stage against Falcon. He has decent air speed and fall speed, so he can close that distance very quickly. However because of his size you would have an easier time recovering if you used pkt2 closer to the stage. This gives Falcon less space to maneuver when he's trying to bair you. He needs space and a bit of time to space his moves correctly. But yeah your recovery getting exploited was the biggest reason you lost this set.

You actually did pretty well with your combos. I feel like you could pk thunder a bit better though.

 

[Charganium]

Dunno if I'm allowed to post this in this thread as some of it is For Glory but here ya go

(tell me how to git gud)

 

[thesage]

https://youtu.be/eOIY9pq2zT8 This not really for critique as it was a for glory match, but I pulled of an amazing combo at the beginning of the match and had some decent edgeguards. I went a little ham in one instance, but I was in full on troll mode by then.

 

[Lukingordex]

Thanks for the advice guys, yes I noticed that I always get punished with a Bair in the face because of that. I kind of have a fear of being gimped while using PK Thunder and because of this I end up trying to get away from the ledge before using it which is a terrible option. I'll try to work on that. I also need to stop using SH Nair for no reason in the neutral game.

 

[moofpi]

Hey guys, my friend PK Blueberry posted a new combo video. He's a Lucas/Ness main, but it has a couple other characters mixed in there too. Hope you enjoy!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_yDtCQOjX4

 

[VP_]

Hello!
I started off a peach main but for a couple weeks I've been trying to learn ness. Both as a player and matchup wise i feel like I'm struggling vs projectiles. At a weekly last friday i went all ness for practice but struggled vs toon link which both my bracket loses came from. The second of the two sets was recorded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGBGJbwnfZQ

Any advice would be help as I know i have a long way to go with ness.

Also i wanted to see how other ness' feel about setting c stick to attack. I was thinking about making the switch.

 

[ToastCunfirmed]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Sb7ZI3qco I have a match from Xanadu here guys!
(I know that I didn't use all of Ness' tools and fished for alot of grabs) Any advice would be appreciated!

 

[Earthbound360]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Sb7ZI3qco I have a match from Xanadu here guys!
(I know that I didn't use all of Ness' tools and fished for alot of grabs) Any advice would be appreciated!

Heh, I watched this match live. From what I saw, you played pretty solidly. Just watch how you recover with your DJ at times, as that's how you lost your first stock. Also, be a bit careful with fair. I try my hardest not to use it on shield since it's punishable even if you move back after hitting the shield.

Other than that, good job with the edgeguards and capitalizing on the laggy moves with throw combos.

 

[ToastCunfirmed]

Heh, I watched this match live. From what I saw, you played pretty solidly. Just watch how you recover with your DJ at times, as that's how you lost your first stock. Also, be a bit careful with fair. I try my hardest not to use it on shield since it's punishable even if you move back after hitting the shield.

Other than that, good job with the edgeguards and capitalizing on the laggy moves with throw combos.

Ah your Mik! I was gonna ditto U but my Dad decided since I lost we had to leave (and I don't have a wii u we probably can't fight) but If u want to battle one day on 3DS (or whenever I get a Wii U) I'd be more than happy too.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ah your Mik! I was gonna ditto U but my Dad decided since I lost we had to leave (and I don't have a wii u we probably can't fight) but If u want to battle one day on 3DS (or whenever I get a Wii U) I'd be more than happy too.

Ah, love to, can't. I actually don't have the 3DS version myself. How'd ya do that day anyways?

 

[ToastCunfirmed]

Ah, love to, can't. I actually don't have the 3DS version myself. How'd ya do that day anyways?

Not too well lmao. Got like 42nd place lol. It was my first tourney tho so I'm looking forward. Tryng to get my Lucas to be my best Character.

 

[Earthbound360]

Not too well lmao. Got like 42nd place lol. It was my first tourney tho so I'm looking forward. Tryng to get my Lucas to be my best Character.

Cool cool, that's how you should look at it. Don't be disappointed with you first time results, but look forward to the next one where you'll do better. I guess that means we'll be seeing you around more.
And if you wanna get good at Lucas, I recommend watching Pink Fresh next time at Xanadu. Pretty sure he has the best Lucas in our scene currently.

 

[ToastCunfirmed]

Cool cool, that's how you should look at it. Don't be disappointed with you first time results, but look forward to the next one where you'll do better. I guess that means we'll be seeing you around more.
And if you wanna get good at Lucas, I recommend watching Pink Fresh next time at Xanadu. Pretty sure he has the best Lucas in our scene currently.

Actually I don't live in Maryland anymore. I live in NC But most of my family lives there so I visit Alot. If I ever visit during a Tuesday I'll be there.

 

[Darklink401]

For yall Ness mains who have a Villy partner, a little discovery (warning: slightly broken o3o)

 

[Lochy]

For yall Ness mains who have a Villy partner, a little discovery (warning: slightly broken o3o)

Wow this is awesome. Always thought Ness and Villager doubles team could work!

 

[Darklink401]

Wow this is awesome. Always thought Ness and Villager doubles team could work!

I think MJG and FOW/Shaky proved the team to be very viable, but yes, it certainly can benefit from this ^-^

Works with Lucas too.

 

[Lukingordex]

critique please:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrOaVVDGqzc

 

[Noa.]

critique please:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrOaVVDGqzc

I don't know the Toon Link matchup at all. I've never played against a competent one, so take this advice with a grain of salt lol. I feel like you can be playing a bit more aggressively against the Tink. There's not use in giving Tink stage control and time for him to setup all his projectiles. Be a bit more aggressive with aerials and prevent him from being able to throw his projectiles easily. But you're doing well in the match so far so it's not that big a deal. You can just speed up your play a bit I think.

Yeah you don't approach and you end up taking lots of free damage from projectiles. In some matchups it's better to play aggressively and in others it's better to play defensively. Just depends really. I think Tink is a matchup that you have to play aggressively in. But again I have no experience playing against Tink so I'm not sure.

You keep dropping those dthrow combos when your opponent DIs away. Dthrow still combos but you have to be really quick with the inputs. If your reaction time is really good you can react to their DI. You just have to run forward and do rising fair. You're letting free damage go!

You just airdodged into the floor and got punished. You never want to do that haha.

This tink is decent at making ledge traps with projectiles. Probably best to just wait out the traps a bit before going for that ledge option. always make sure to mixup your ledge option as well.

That first match was very close but you clutched it out in the end. Good job.

When Tink is recovering you aren't using pk thunder harassment and that's not taking advantage of a good situation. When you're pk thundering opponents with projectiles it does good to sometime jump and do pk thunder or do pk thunder on the platform. Or do pk thunder from further away and closer towards till the center of the stage. Just mixup your position when you pk thunder and you will be able to do it more successfully against projectiles.

You keep airdodging to the ground. You also spotdodge a lot and you don't have to against characters with tether grabs. They have a lot of trouble dealing with shields and you can do it more liberally.

Idk I think you played too patiently and didn't approach enough. If they have a projectile and the percent lead you have to approach. Just learn how to play aggressively and put pressure on the opponent. The key to this is spacing your aerials very well and fast falling them when the aerials are over.

For yall Ness mains who have a Villy partner, a little discovery (warning: slightly broken o3o)

And this is really awesome. Like wow i had no idea this could happen.

 

[xRucifer]

Hey guys! I was wondering if you could critique my match against this Dedede main. For some reason I struggle a lot against this matchup and I can't understand what I'm doing wrong. After rewatching the replays I noticed I am using PK fire too much and should restrain myself.

Also if you can also let me know what I'm doing right with Ness too, that would help! Thanks!

Losing:
https://youtu.be/zeRZhODAaR8

Winning barely:
https://youtu.be/JRQPk1-xxNA

 

[Lochy]

Hey guys! I was wondering if you could critique my match against this Dedede main. For some reason I struggle a lot against this matchup and I can't understand what I'm doing wrong. After rewatching the replays I noticed I am using PK fire too much and should restrain myself.

Also if you can also let me know what I'm doing right with Ness too, that would help! Thanks!

Losing:
https://youtu.be/zeRZhODAaR8

Winning barely:
https://youtu.be/JRQPk1-xxNA

For Losing: I think you went for too many unsafe full hop pk fires. They leave with a pretty big amount of landing lag if you don't dair cancel it. Also you could have nair'd the gordos back at Dedede. Approaching with fair is also not the best option if the opponent shields it.

For Winning: I think you need to airdodge when you anticipate Dedede will try to fair you offstage. Also this Dedede main loves to fastfall nair into the ground. Read his nair and then do a quick OoS nair to knock him away.

I hope this helps.

 

[yoshi8984]

Went out to a tourney last night, had 2 sets on stream!

Ness Ditto (2:19:41~2:26:15)
Barely lost both games lol, opponent banned Delfino and Lylat (everyone should know Delfino is my CP LOL)

Vs Luigi (2:25:14)
Won this one, Luigi's hella stressful to fight tho lol. Pretty funny stuff happened tho. xD

 

[Earthbound360]

Went out to a tourney last night, had 2 sets on stream!

Ness Ditto (2:19:41~2:26:15)
Barely lost both games lol, opponent banned Delfino and Lylat (everyone should know Delfino is my CP LOL)

Vs Luigi (2:25:14)
Won this one, Luigi's hella stressful to fight tho lol. Pretty funny stuff happened tho. xD

Dude, you have an excellent Ness! Very fun to watch, and I think you had great games.

What I do want to mention is your spacing on some aerials. You lost a few trades over the edge to Luffy because he was sticking right outside your range, waiting for you with an aerial (see last stock, game 2).
Also, mind your air dodges. He baited you into that bat on stock one.

Other than that, good job overall. I think you play very similarly to me. You did a good job waiting for air dodges, playing the neutral, and completing your combos

You need to post more vids!

 

[Shamrock7r]

Jank... Double Jank... TRIPLE JANK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9j1aD3AoGo

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Jank... Double Jank... TRIPLE JANK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9j1aD3AoGo

PK Flash kill, Double Bair gimp and a Bair Stage Spike. What's worse, the Salt or the Crispiness...

 

[Noa.]

Jank... Double Jank... TRIPLE JANK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9j1aD3AoGo

Not being able to tech stage spikes online sucks lol.

Went out to a tourney last night, had 2 sets on stream!

Ness Ditto (2:19:41~2:26:15)
Barely lost both games lol, opponent banned Delfino and Lylat (everyone should know Delfino is my CP LOL)

Vs Luigi (2:25:14)
Won this one, Luigi's hella stressful to fight tho lol. Pretty funny stuff happened tho. xD

The Ness set.
-Haha neither of you are getting these pk thunder gimps lol. It's important to practice it because it's a really important tool in the ditto.
-You got for pk fire a lot in the advantaged state, but you're not landing it a lot. Make sure to only pk fire their landing if they do not have their double jump. If they still have it then you can't safely capture their landing with pk fire.
-You've been recovering pretty high against this Ness player. Against floaty characters it's better to recover low I find, because they can't fastfall quickly to hit you. You should get down really low and then double jump up to te ledge or to on stage.
- Lol this set is really fun. He lands an fsmash and then you break his shield. That is just hilarious lol. Nice shield break.
-Nice use of pk thunder to get to the ledge safely. You use it very often and never mess it up or die.
-You're pretty good at your dthrow followups. You land them often and do quite a bit of damage.

The Luigi set:
-Very nice edgeguarding with the trump to dsmash. You could've finished the stock if you had gimped Luigi with the tail however.
-It's good that you are not approaching and walling Luigi with bairs.
-Go a bit deeper with the tail to edgeguard Luigi. Force him to recover into that tail lol.
-You use quite a lot of usmash. But you don't typically land it. What's your thought process behind using usmash?
-I feel like you use way fewer aerials compared to other Ness players. Nair is really missing from your play. And it is an incredibly great tool. Sh aerials are really powerful.
-Nice read on the Luigi there in the end.


I also have some videos myself that I would love feedback and advice on. I drop a lot of dthrow combos in this one. i really need to get to practicing them sometime. I'm really bad at the fox matchup.

Me vs Polt

game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAPRLs7pep4

game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tfj2WrnI-kw

game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63VgMZPuOx0

Me vs Jazz

game 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIlgzJ6jPQE

game 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GawxeHKuHW0

game 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tC9HvK64ngs

game 4: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqVnty76fVM

 

[yoshi8984]

@Noa: Isn't recovering low dangerous in the ditto since the other Ness can magnet you? Also I'm not fond of the idea since you can get D-Tilted/Smashed and then easy Magnet gimp lol.

- I get a bit worried if I miss the tailwhip (somehow) as he recover so that's usually why I tend to stage cancel PKT.

- I had a thing for Yo-Yos since Brawl (too bad they don't hit while charging anymore) but I've obv used them a lot less compared to Brawl. I try to space with the back hit of U-Smash as a mix up, though I guess it wasn't too handy haha.

- Should also note I generally like to fall with Bair and land with Uair, but against Luigi I lower the use of Fair. Don't like landing with Nair, and against Luigi I'm moreso focused on them Bairs lol.

 

[Asa]

-edgeguard fox better with pkt
-ledge jump more
-don't drop combos
- don't overcommit in the air and let him land for free

 

[Lukingordex]

@Noa: Isn't recovering low dangerous in the ditto since the other Ness can magnet you? Also I'm not fond of the idea since you can get D-Tilted/Smashed and then easy Magnet gimp lol.

It doesn't matter if you try to recover low/high or whatever against another Ness because besides gimping you with Magnet he can also gimp you by throwing a PKT1 into your PKT2 trajetory if you try to recover far away from the ledge. Your only salvation here is to have your DJ.

Ness hardcounters Ness lol

 

[yoshi8984]

@ Noa. Haha that Fox was pretty damn aggro lol, was amusing to see. Anyway...

- Cover your landings with Uair more. I saw many situations where Fox got a grab or Smash and it could've been avoided had you landed with the Uair.

- On Delfino, you did well there. But in the section with the roof tops, I like to stand by one side of the center roof and wait for Fox to come to me, esp. if I'm in the lead. If he does you can usually get a Nair, if not then nothing happens haha. You can apply this for any section where you can hide at the lowest platform level, like the section with the parasols, the Shine Gate and that area where the bridge is (with the water at the very left). I tend to not approach the walk off areas. I like to call areas like this as my zone.
You can add PKTs there (would avoid doing at the rooftops and the bridge section, waiting for an approach and Nair is better), or jump up and Magnet in the neutral if you feel Fox will laser.

- Don't try ledge trumps unless Fox has to recover low or mid level with the stage. You can deny him from recovering high with PKT and tailwhipping. If they hold the Shine trying to not get hit by a PKT edgeguard, he's lower than where he wants to be to recover, like here. If he has to recover low or mid level, run off and Nair/Bair. If he's under the stage trying to go upward, try the Bair (unless you're already on the ledge, then drop down and Nair) and Nair if he's on level with the ledge to Illusion or tries to Fire Fox. (Also check Game 6 of my vid there, I show you how to eat Fox for breakfast haha)

- On Smashville I liked your D-Throw > Fair follow up when the moving platform came. But if you get him on the platform, try a dash grab or Nair instead.

- You can try to mix up your recoveries by adding PK Fire to the mix, like here.

- Oh my god getting caught under the lip of Battlefield sucks lol

Hope this helped ya.