Lumine Hall - Ness Video and Critique Thread

[ilysm]

@ PixelPerfect I can tell from watching the replay that you know what fundamentals you're trying to accomplish, and it's just taking time for the knowledge to go from your brain to your fingers. That's good! It means you'll get much better with further practice.

I think that saying you use PK Fire 'too often' is too simple a way to put it. You seem to only be using it as a punish move, which is more or less how its intended to be used. It's good to use as a punish when your opponent is inexperienced and does not know how to DI out of it, so that's good. However, this tends to get most Nesses into a mindset that they cannot grab out of anything other than a PK Fire. You can get a grab out of nothing if you know what to do. I think I saw you punish with just a plain grab maybe once, and there were a few occasions when a dash grab, pivot grab, or plain ol' grab would have done the job without needing a PK Fire (I saw one point where Falcon did a laggy move and you simply spotdodged, then tried for an ftilt when a grab might have led into a damaging combo). Experiment, and don't be afraid to get a feel for your opponent. Capitalize on their habits to know when you can grab them. Also, on heavier characters like Falcon at lower percentages, dthrow -> short hop fastfall fair can lead into a regrab, as well as dthrow -> full hop fair -> fast fall -> uair. Don't be too nervous to grab when they're not caught in PK Fire. It'll open up a world of options, especially seeing as Ness has fairly good, fast grabs.

You tended to use roll as a movement option (i.e, rolling backwards to move away from Captain Falcon in order to space a PK Fire). A lot of new players do this, and it's sort of a misconception. Rolls are not really an effective way of getting about the stage. A roll only leaves you intangible for a little while, and is punishable as it ends, while dashing, jumping, and walking allow better control, unpredictability, and the ability to throw out defensive hitboxes or shield. Rolls are mainly used to avoid telegraphed attacks and escape some shield pressure. To get from one place on the stage to another, dashing, jumping, and walking are better.

Also, you might want to fastfall more. After your uairs and other things, you were kind of just drifting down to the stage. Also, dthrow -> fair -> fair will usually only combo if you fastfall after the first fair. This is mainly a movement thing. It'll contribute to your agility and allow you to move into a better position than your opponent quicker, as well as being ready fro grounded attacks and followups sooner.

Don't be afraid to airdodge! You tended to land with nair, which is a good option, but if they catch on it won't always work. Airdodge can get you out of some tricky situations if used sparingly, and you can cancel most of the lag by doing a dair juuuust before you hit the ground. If you want to land with a hitbox, though, remember to fastfall, and uair is a good landing option as well because it covers a large portion of his body, combos at low percents, and kills at higher percents.

Overall, I can see that you have read up on your Ness techniques and are trying to apply them! This is very good, as it means you are trying to stay away from a lot of bad habits new Ness mains tend to fall into. Keep practicing! This was not too unimpressive of an outing.

 

[PixelPerfect]

@ PixelPerfect I can tell from watching the replay that you know what fundamentals you're trying to accomplish, and it's just taking time for the knowledge to go from your brain to your fingers. That's good! It means you'll get much better with further practice.

I think that saying you use PK Fire 'too often' is too simple a way to put it. You seem to only be using it as a punish move, which is more or less how its intended to be used. It's good to use as a punish when your opponent is inexperienced and does not know how to DI out of it, so that's good. However, this tends to get most Nesses into a mindset that they cannot grab out of anything other than a PK Fire. You can get a grab out of nothing if you know what to do. I think I saw you punish with just a plain grab maybe once, and there were a few occasions when a dash grab, pivot grab, or plain ol' grab would have done the job without needing a PK Fire (I saw one point where Falcon did a laggy move and you simply spotdodged, then tried for an ftilt when a grab might have led into a damaging combo). Experiment, and don't be afraid to get a feel for your opponent. Capitalize on their habits to know when you can grab them. Also, on heavier characters like Falcon at lower percentages, dthrow -> short hop fastfall fair can lead into a regrab, as well as dthrow -> full hop fair -> fast fall -> uair. Don't be too nervous to grab when they're not caught in PK Fire. It'll open up a world of options, especially seeing as Ness has fairly good, fast grabs.

You tended to use roll as a movement option (i.e, rolling backwards to move away from Captain Falcon in order to space a PK Fire). A lot of new players do this, and it's sort of a misconception. Rolls are not really an effective way of getting about the stage. A roll only leaves you intangible for a little while, and is punishable as it ends, while dashing, jumping, and walking allow better control, unpredictability, and the ability to throw out defensive hitboxes or shield. Rolls are mainly used to avoid telegraphed attacks and escape some shield pressure. To get from one place on the stage to another, dashing, jumping, and walking are better.

Also, you might want to fastfall more. After your uairs and other things, you were kind of just drifting down to the stage. Also, dthrow -> fair -> fair will usually only combo if you fastfall after the first fair. This is mainly a movement thing. It'll contribute to your agility and allow you to move into a better position than your opponent quicker, as well as being ready fro grounded attacks and followups sooner.

Don't be afraid to airdodge! You tended to land with nair, which is a good option, but if they catch on it won't always work. Airdodge can get you out of some tricky situations if used sparingly, and you can cancel most of the lag by doing a dair juuuust before you hit the ground. If you want to land with a hitbox, though, remember to fastfall, and uair is a good landing option as well because it covers a large portion of his body, combos at low percents, and kills at higher percents.

Overall, I can see that you have read up on your Ness techniques and are trying to apply them! This is very good, as it means you are trying to stay away from a lot of bad habits new Ness mains tend to fall into. Keep practicing! This was not too unimpressive of an outing.

Alright then, thanks for the information! I'll try to apply it to my play an hopefully keep improving. :D

 

[neomadgic]

First of all, as a fellow MN player I want to say that I highly respect your game. I remember playing you once at a tournament/smashfest for Brawl once years ago and I got my *** kicked. I've also played Triple R's Brawl Kirby for several hours of friendlies, and didn't win a single game(came close a couple of times, but got 2 stocked a lot). The level of advice you may actually need might be on the level of a NAKAT, since I know you're one of the best on these boards.

With that being said, it seemed to me like Kirby got behind you a lot. Largely grabs, but some attacks too. He rolled behind you a lot, but sometimes he just dashed behind you too. You didn't use dsmash at all that entire match(I don't think), have you ever thought about using it? I know it's not that great and I'm not in the habit of using it either, but it does manage to cover the backside quickly.

Oh, and I'm always looking to meet up with people for friendlies/training for Sm4sh, so if you're down let me know.

Hey Revengeska, I also remember you from back in the wee days! Thanks for the solid advice, I'm really trying to incorporate Dsmash into my play. I saw FOW use it really effectively, so that's gonna be one of my main focuses.

I do have a problem with sometimes not being patient enough. I sometimes need to make my decisions more carefully.

The difference between spacing fairs and nairs depends on how Diddy decides to use his fair. If he does a rising or quick fair, it'll trade with our fair and we'll lose the trade terribly. If he does the fair at the apex of his jump or tries to do a late retreating fair then fair will catch him for free. Nair will usually trade with a rising or quick Diddy fair, and will be outranged if he goes for a retreating or well spaced fair. So sh nair is not the catch all option for dealing with Diddy's fair. But neither is sh fair. I should've been predicting and mixing in more sh nairs with my sh fairs. Another option that I was using against him in the previous set was just using pk thunder if he was trying to space fairs. It worked surprisingly well, but it's an option with heavy committment, so if he doesn't short hop we'll get punished for trying to use pk thunder.

Mixing up early airdodges, late airdodges, and doublejumps is all fine when trying to get out of dthrow follow ups. It's essential to slightly change up your timing of your airdodge or jump to avoid the uair followup. Sometimes it's ok to airdodge immediately after a dthrow. In the previous set he was never able to followup with an aerial after a dthrow at high percents. Because of that he had lots of difficulty killing me in the previous set and I won. In this set I did a poor job of mixing up my escape options, as well as not DI'ing the throw correctly. Thus, I died a lot.

And yeah he wasn't too great at putting pressure on me when I'm on the ledge.

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep it all in mind the next time I face a Diddy.



Ok so Kirby's dair is quite good and you had some trouble with it. Dair has quite a decent amount of range and lasts a very long time. Trying to beat it directly with uair, usmash, or utilt is not usually a good idea. Trying to shield grab it can also be difficult because Kirby will usually land behind you, and there's a landing hitbox on it as well. Trying to bait it out and punish the landing has a very tight window as the landing hitbox stays out for a while, and the window between the landing hitbox and the ending of the landing lag is a bit small. The best way to punish an incoming dair is to just run away from the dair and then pivot pk fire. If you predict that Kirby is going to dair you then pivot pk fire is your best option against it. Now pivot pk fire can be slightly dangerous. If Kirby baits out the pk fire from you and uses a double jump instead of dairing, you will be punished quite heavily.

Now for Kirby to make use of his Dair, he has to do it out of a full hop, or short hop double jump. Depending on where and when Kirby performs his jump, you can punish him. Kirby takes time to get into his proper positioning to use dair. The hitbox is only below him and it doesn't come out immediately, so he has to be quite high in the air to use it effectively. That combine with his slow dash speed and air speed means that you have a very large window to punish Kirby while he's in the air before his dair comes out. Now If Kirby runs up close to you and full hops to do his dair, you can just hit him with a nair, fair, or uair before the dair comes out. You have to jump with him, or shortly after him. I'm not really sure whether or not you can really do it on reaction. It might require a read. I don't have enough experience against Kirby to know for sure. Conversely, if Kirby tries to jump from a farther distance, you can just punish him by using pk thunder. This is actually a very decent option against Kirby if he's trying to approach you from high above with multiple jumps.

Kirby's dair is his main combo tool, and the easiest way for him to wrack up damage. It's vital that you learn how to correctly play against Kirby's dair. To summarize, punish him landing with dair by running away and pivot pk firing, hit hims with a fair, nair, or uair if he tries to full hop near you, and use pk thunder if he tries to position himself from farther away with multiple jumps. Those are the three best options to deal with Kirby's dair IMO. Try to punish it before the hitbox comes out, or when he lands. trying to fight the dair itself is very difficult I find.

Triple R was doing a lot of short hop fairs and bairs. When opponents are trying to wall you out with fast aerials there are a couple options you have. If they don't retreat it properly, you can punish their landing with a pk fire. If they are using an aerial at the apex of their jump, sometimes you have enough time to run up below them and sh nair. If you have space between you and their using a lot of empty hops and sh aerials, you can also pk thunder them. If the aerial they're shorthopping doesn't have a lingering hitbox that lasts until right before they land, you can also punish their landing with a dash attack, as it has great range and it's disjointed.

If you see someone positioning themselves for a trump, try to spam roll. If you can buffer the roll you can usually avoid the trump. I'm not sure if it's an infallible option against someone attempting to trump, but if you try to roll as as soon as possible it makes the timing for them really difficult.

When you're trying to land from getting juggled, you keep trying to use fair. When you were using fair you were using it way too early, and by the time you reached Kirby's height, the hitboxes for fair were gone. You were having a lot of difficult landing against Kirby. Nair is not too bad an option sometimes. However it's very easy to shield grab. There are two good options to take when landing if you think your opponent is going to shield. A great option is to just land with no aerial. Just land and immediately grab or jab when you land. If your opponent tries to initiate a shield grab when you land, you can usually jab to beat their shield grab. If you land without an aerial and your opponent hesitates while shielding, you can get a grab. Also while landing it's wise to do your best to land behind their shield. Just removing the option for them to shield grab you is very potent. The second option to do against someone trying to shield your landings is to hit their shield with a sweetspot bair, especially the back of their shield. Sweetspot bair has a lot of shield stun and shield pushback, and characters can't shield grab it. Because Kirby has low mobility, he also can't drop shield and dash into a punish. So when you're trying to land from a juggle, land with no aerial into a jab or grab, land behind their shield, or land with a sweetspot bair on their shield.

This set was actually entertaining to watch. Triple R clearly had you figured out, but it was fun seeing a proficient Kirby play. It's very rare to find good Kirby players. For what it's worth, I think the Ness Kirby matchup is probably even, or if not even then only slightly in our favor. I can tell you're a good player. Even though you were beat very solidly, he was punishing you off very small mistakes, and he just had a very good reading of you as a player. You didn't typically lose because of a couple of huge mistakes. It was a multitude of small mistakes that led to his victory. I really enjoyed watching your Ness. Do you have any VODs of a set that you win in?

First off, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE THOROUGH ADVICE! This is what I really came for, because I know I have a lot to improve on. Those landing tips are spot on, I didn't realized I was fairing too early. I will deff try all those tactics in my next run with him. I never actually thought about just landing and grab, so that will be my priority. I'm gonna take all this info in and work on them.

As for other videos, I actually don't have that much. I have one of us in Winners Final, and that set was an amazing nail biter. Here's the link to that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHocR-6TXs4

 

[Noa.]

Hey Revengeska, I also remember you from back in the wee days! Thanks for the solid advice, I'm really trying to incorporate Dsmash into my play. I saw FOW use it really effectively, so that's gonna be one of my main focuses.




First off, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR THE THOROUGH ADVICE! This is what I really came for, because I know I have a lot to improve on. Those landing tips are spot on, I didn't realized I was fairing too early. I will deff try all those tactics in my next run with him. I never actually thought about just landing and grab, so that will be my priority. I'm gonna take all this info in and work on them.

As for other videos, I actually don't have that much. I have one of us in Winners Final, and that set was an amazing nail biter. Here's the link to that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHocR-6TXs4

I'm happy to be of help! I know I really appreciate when people for me advice and you gave me some great advice on my set the other day. I just wanted to repay the favor. I was hoping that I was just making you aware of a couple options you may not have considered before. I'm happy you could use my feedback.

 

[Meccs]

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/620105921
1:41 mark.
Hey so weeklies. 4th out of 12. I got knocked to losers by this diddy, then knocked out by them in losers semis. There are some single-elim doubles (Prawn and I won, actually) later in the VOD.

 

[PMMikey]

*sigh* Okay. Is this player really good, or do I just really suck? I just recently fought this Japanese player and got completely annihilated. Out of maybe 10 matches, I won only 1. I know I might be posting a lot of videos, but lately I keep coming across players that just make me feel like the worst.

In the videos, if it looks like I'm making very odd decisions, it's because all my usual tactics just weren't working. So I was trying to make some odd moves and be less predictable, but this player STILL read my every move like a book. I felt completely helpless and it just put me in the worst mood... I couldn't even beat this player's Little Mac and usually Ness is great against Little Macs...

I wouldn't use pkt really while they're on the ground they will just shield it and punish you for it. If you ever do miss it definitely run it to the ground so you can gain control and move in for the attack. With Robin try going for the aerials.

 

[Meccs]

http://www.twitch.tv/lanceking2200_/b/621918373

Did good first against a villager. then got spanked in losers finals... my sets are the first two.

 

[neomadgic]

http://www.twitch.tv/lanceking2200_/b/621918373

Did good first against a villager. then got spanked in losers finals... my sets are the first two.

First off, great work on placing pretty well! Congrats on top 3 .

I'll try to help you against this falcon because I know you can beat him. I can tell that you have an amazing ness. Technical skills-wise, you are far better than me. You autocancel your uairs really well, great use of OoS nairs as well as OoS Usmash (I never use this, so I'm trying to incorporate this into my game).

I fight a captain falcon pretty frequently, as he is my training partner, so I know this matchup pretty well. Unfortunately, my training partner isn't very good, but I know what works really well against falcon, and that is EDGEGUARDING. Our Nair actually beats out falcon's up B if timed correctly, so don't be afraid to get out there. I feel like you were playing too conservative, and at every edge guard possibility, you went for a PK thunder. Ness has the aerial tools to gimp falcon pretty well, so don't be afraid! The biggest thing to watch out for when edgeguarding a falcon is his rising uairs, but once his second jump is out of the way, it's a very easy edgeguard since he can only upB. Just get a Nair timing down and you'll have that falcon in fear every time you knock him off the stage.


1st match against falcon: at about 14:45, you probably know it too, but a missed opportunity for the edgeguard. You probably thought he wasn't gonna come (which I thought as well), but yeah, that was a perfect time to challenge his upB with a Nair which would have killed him. After you lost your first stock, I felt like you kinda got too aggressive and stopped spacing your moves. You over extended and he punished you every time. I know you might of been on tilt, but relax yourself, and let the action come to you.

2nd match: beautiful tech at 18:00 :D. This was a really great match, and honestly, you played pretty well. It was just that one mistake that costed you your last stock. And that mistake? You over extended when you were coming back from the edge. Other than that, you played pretty solid this match. I felt like you should have won.

3rd match: Things start off pretty well, but he took off you first stock with the same way he always has... He waited for you to overextend coming from the edge, and punished you badly. Judging from most of the way you got KO'd, and from how he mostly did your damage, I HIGHLY recommend going for the ledge, instead of landing back on the stage (mixing it up from time to time of course), because when you are hanging from the ledge, you have more options. Although, I noticed that your favorite option is to roll, try just a regular get up (no attack). It's really hard to punish since they have a really small window to do so.

Overall, I think you are a very good ness, probably better than me. You do a lot of things well, but 2 things I would deff work on:

1.) Mixing up your ways of getting back on the stage. I recommend going for the ledge and then use a regular getup.

2.) Being more aggressive off stage when he is trying to recover.

 

[marioarturo2000]

Hi,

Please can you give any advice to improve my Ness? These are For Glory matches against Diddy, I lost 2 matches and won 2 matches (unfortunately I didn't save one of them).

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

I normally struggle against Diddy, Mario and MegaMan, I will participate in my first WiiU tournament this weekend and any advice is well received ^_~

 

[Meccs]

Thank you for the help Neo. I have noticed I have a tough time getting back on stage- I shouldnt be getting Fsmashed by Falcon that much. Basically agree with everything you brought up, I appreciate it!

 

[Uffe]

1st Match: Rolling into your opponent. Whether you get hit or not doesn't really matter, you should avoid doing so. Another thing, you would often come back to Diddy Kong rather than safely moving away from him. When you were off the stage at 1:16, you should have gone for the edge of the stage or grabbed on the lip of it. At 2:30, you should have challenged Diddy with fair and retreated back to avoid the f-smash.

2nd Match: No spacing between you and your opponent's shield. I noticed this in the first match as well. To have dealt with this, you could have either aerial, retreat, aerial, or grabbed him. PKF kills bananas. PKT kills bananas. PKT2, I believe also does the same. I'd say if it's there on the ground, you could either go to pick it up, or let Diddy try to grab it and have him get hit by PKF in the process. Personally, if the banana was thrown at me, I would have grabbed it with fair/nair or air dodge to grab it. You pretty much just threw the banana in hopes it would connect, but it was predictable that you would toss it soon after picking it up, so Diddy would just block it.

3rd Match: Weird that PKF didn't kill the banana. I thought for sure it did. Maybe when it is first released. O___o Anyway, it appears the same thing as mentioned for the previous matches happened here. What's going on here is that he baited you many times just so he could land some free hits on you. It's fine, but for future references, try your best to avoid it.

 

[marioarturo2000]

1st Match: Rolling into your opponent. Whether you get hit or not doesn't really matter, you should avoid doing so. Another thing, you would often come back to Diddy Kong rather than safely moving away from him. When you were off the stage at 1:16, you should have gone for the edge of the stage or grabbed on the lip of it. At 2:30, you should have challenged Diddy with fair and retreated back to avoid the f-smash.

2nd Match: No spacing between you and your opponent's shield. I noticed this in the first match as well. To have dealt with this, you could have either aerial, retreat, aerial, or grabbed him. PKF kills bananas. PKT kills bananas. PKT2, I believe also does the same. I'd say if it's there on the ground, you could either go to pick it up, or let Diddy try to grab it and have him get hit by PKF in the process. Personally, if the banana was thrown at me, I would have grabbed it with fair/nair or air dodge to grab it. You pretty much just threw the banana in hopes it would connect, but it was predictable that you would toss it soon after picking it up, so Diddy would just block it.

3rd Match: Weird that PKF didn't kill the banana. I thought for sure it did. Maybe when it is first released. O___o Anyway, it appears the same thing as mentioned for the previous matches happened here. What's going on here is that he baited you many times just so he could land some free hits on you. It's fine, but for future references, try your best to avoid it.

Thanks Uffe, pretty good advice; sometimes is difficult to notice our own bad habits
I've taken mental notes based on your comments for future matches.

 

[Uffe]

Thanks Uffe, pretty good advice; sometimes is difficult to notice our own bad habits
I've taken mental notes based on your comments for future matches.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

 

[Waael]

My 0-50 immediate set up on one of the best Sheik players in Smash 4 that happened last night! http://gfycat.com/TerrificOrangeCommabutterfly#

 

[marioarturo2000]

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.

No, sorry if it seems that way (english is not my native language).

I even check some other replays and I've never noticed that a lot of my deaths are caused by the way I return to the main platform while having high damage percentage.

And while I was rewatching the video I cannot believe how many bananas I didn't grab from the floor, for example.

 

[Uffe]

No, sorry if it seems that way (english is not my native language).

I even check some other replays and I've never noticed that a lot of my deaths are caused by the way I return to the main platform while having high damage percentage.

And while I was rewatching the video I cannot believe how many bananas I didn't grab from the floor, for example.

I asked because of the rolling eyes emote. :S But it's OK. Replays are pretty good to save because you can always look back and see where you went wrong. I'd say to try to learn reading your opponent, or in other words, predicting what they're going to do. An example would be seeing how often your opponent rolls or which attacks they like to use the most. In this case, Diddy Kong's bananas to the grabs and throws. Every character has a certain play style, and so Diddy Kong also has one that a lot of Diddy users use.

 

[NorCal_DSS]

Winner Semis vs Zex (#5 SoCal PR)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PLU9LNnn8E
Loser Finals vs Zex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLc9Tba_3vc

Grand Finals vs Sean (#1 NorCal PR)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONbHdP9enlc

 

[Noa.]

Winner Semis vs Zex (#5 SoCal PR)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PLU9LNnn8E
Loser Finals vs Zex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLc9Tba_3vc

Grand Finals vs Sean (#1 NorCal PR)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONbHdP9enlc

Wow I want to just say that I really enjoyed watching these sets It's really great to see such great Ness play being executed. I'm not familiar with Sean, but I know who Zex is so that's awesome that you were able to beat him. Your control of pk thunder was great, the hard reads with the fsmash were fantastic, and the utilization of empty hops and empty landings was awesome. Thanks for posting these. I have been improving over the past couple weeks but watching these sets has inspired me to get even better.

The only thing I will say is that you don't use fthrow or uthrow enough. A lot of the times you use a dthrow when no followups can occur, or you use bthrow too early and it doesn't kill. Fthrow and uthrow can setup for more pk thunders better than dthrow or bthrow usually. This is a really small thing obviously lol.

Your use of pk thunder in neutral was also really great. I've been wanting to do more of that myself.

Thanks for posting these!

 

[neomadgic]

Winner Semis vs Zex (#5 SoCal PR)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PLU9LNnn8E
Loser Finals vs Zex
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLc9Tba_3vc

Grand Finals vs Sean (#1 NorCal PR)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONbHdP9enlc

Holy crap, that set against diddy was amazing. Really really appreciate this, as I'm going to a tourney tomorrow with 4 high level diddys. (1 of them being mew2king)

 

[Ggjeed]

Meta question about that tournament. I feel like you played a lot of extra games at the end. (2 sets against Zex and 2 sets against Sean). What was the structure behind this?

 

[Noa.]

In double elimination tournaments everyone enters a bracket. When you lose your first set, you get knocked into losers bracket. When you lose your second set in losers bracket, you are out of the tournament. The last two people left in winners play in winners finals, which is typically a best of five. The winner of winners finals moves on to grand finals, and the loser of winners finals goes to losers finals. The one player to make it out of losers bracket is the other player in losers finals. The winner of losers finals then goes to grand finals.

In grand finals, if the player from winners finals wins one set, he or she wins the tournament. The player from losers finals has to beat the player from winners finals twice to win the tournament.

 

[Ggjeed]

Hmm, I get that structure, but it seems weird that it went from DSS/Zex in winner semis to DSS/Zex in losers finals. Was it just because of an odd number of entrants? The grand finals makes sense now, too. Forgot that winner has to lose one, too before his last set.

 

[NorCal_DSS]

@ Noa. Yeah, I noticed my use of f-throw and u-throw were lacking when I went back and watched the sets after the tournament. I think my d-throw came out in those situations due to habit, but I'll definitely continue to work on my stage control game at higher percents. Thanks for the critiques and compliments!

@ neomadgic What tournament was this? And how did you do?

@ Ggjeed The tournament was 2/3 until grand finals due to time constraints. I lost to Sean in Winner Finals; I didn't play the match up correctly, so didn't think it'd be very helpful to post the video of the set. But, it might be helpful to understand what I did wrong in Winner Finals and how I adjusted when in Grand Finals.

Me vs Sean in Winner Finals. I lost this set, but didn't play the match up correctly. Watching this and Grand Finals will show how I adjusted and what works in the matchup vs what doesn't work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TtUuTSwc6E

 

[Lukingordex]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fKYtNBl7Vo

Some Ness dittos in a grand finals of a not "serious" tourney.

I'm the blue one.

Also vs Pikachu: (only the last match of the set)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56E54LImWR4


I'd usually ask for advice in losing matches, but for now these are the only ones with footage of my ness.

 

[Meccs]

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/629314916

I'm actually in friendlies at the beginning of the video against the person I would lose to in Losers Semis. Very disappointed with the loss that set because I made a lot of stupid decisions, it was certainly winable. Losers Quarters w/me is at 1:40, then losers semis right after that. Ended 4th/18.

 

[Ffamran]

Have fun watching Ness fight a dragon that's not actually a dragon because of Pokémon typing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnJjgqt69oA.

Edit: FOW's Ness vs. Shofu's Fox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ytyCxRxcAw.

 

[Waael]

Such a fun and lawlzy tournament match, I went into PKT1 Stage Spike/ PKT2 Beast Mode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ens_t2EYsYg

@ Earthbound360 @ Noa.

 

[Earthbound360]

Lol, it's the suicidal thunder that got me rofling the most there @ Waael .
Also, I've been wanting to experiment more with PKT1 edgeguard (head) into on stage aerial. People are starting to air dodge it right when they get pulled up, but I think we can make that read and do something much, much more nasty

 

[Waael]

Lol, it's the suicidal thunder that got me rofling the most there @ Waael .
Also, I've been wanting to experiment more with PKT1 edgeguard (head) into on stage aerial. People are starting to air dodge it right when they get pulled up, but I think we can make that read and do something much, much more nasty

Yes! I was thinking the same thing too , These two players we played against do tech constantly but he wasn't able to wall tech the PKT2 for some reason this time, but Im trying to figure out options after the player techs perfectly. I've been in situations where Im off stage and several players are able to tech my PKT2 when I hit them and they're able to live still XD.

 

[Meccs]

Such a fun and lawlzy tournament match, I went into PKT1 Stage Spike/ PKT2 Beast Mode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ens_t2EYsYg

@ Earthbound360 @ Noa.

That was awesome PKT usage. And I loved the aggressiveness of stage with Bair. I'm trying to dropdown from ledgegrab > Bair a lot more, because it works wonders. Hell even just using Bair more in general. Also very smart against characters like Marth or Falcon, to hit them with the tail of PK Thunder when they're low because it's basically a death sentence. Going for that instead of hitting them with the head is something more Ness mains need to incorporate into their edgeguarding game.

If only we had 1.03 3DS PKT (or physics? idk what exactly it was that changed that ruined it) back so PKT > Uair was like guaranteed. Those were good good times.

And EB360 you're right. I love people who airdodge instantly. If I pick that up during a match, I'll usually throw out a Dthrow > Fsmash. That connecting will break the person's spirit.

 

[Earthbound360]

Well, I wasn't referring to off stage PKT2, but yeah you can stage tech that. If you're really bold, you can even gimp Ness like this and take the PKT2 to the face and tech it to cut his distance.

 

[Meccs]

Yes! I was thinking the same thing too , These two players we played against do tech constantly but he wasn't able to wall tech the PKT2 for some reason this time, but Im trying to figure out options after the player techs perfectly. I've been in situations where Im off stage and several players are able to tech my PKT2 when I hit them and they're able to live still XD.

I'm afraid more and more people will start to do this, but at the same time, it's incredibly risky. You have to be perfect about it, because you could get hit at a slightly different angle and go over the stage, or just plain miss the tech, I mean there's a lot that could go wrong to the point where there probably aren't as many people willing enough to try to bother with it.

Also, a thought on somebody trying to do that- if you know they're going to jump down, PKT2 into the wall > PKT2 back to the stage would probably see them be slightly above you or overlapping you as you use PKT the second time, and then they'll get shocked by PKT, and then either blasted by PKT2 if they're high enough or they'll get dropped down trying to scramble to recover while you blast back to the ledge if they're overlapping you. We actually have options for PKT2 in 4, which is nice. And if it gets too prevalent to the point where it seriously threatens Ness' viability (doubtful)... well there's Lucas' PKT2 custom.

 

[Earthbound360]

Ness' recovery is a reason I think that he'll drop in tiers over time. There's ALWAYS something you can do to gimp him. Either you're recovering close enough to the stage to have PKT get eaten (but PKT2 cannot), or you're far enough from the stage that PKT2 can get eaten with a stage tech (but you're too far for PKT1 to get eaten on time).

Basically, the distance you recover from determines how you gimp Ness. Keep this on the down low though...

 

[Waael]

:0 Such great insight from the both of you! I agree with the both of you guys. Do you guys also do this? I've noticed when they're off stage and you're standing on the edge, and you hit them with PKT1 it brings them towards you sometimes, I usually go for a U-air when this does happen, I've gotten a lot of kills this way too!

PKT2 is such a risky move, but I love it. I use it as a spacing tool, a Kill Move, an approaching tool, To Rack up damage, and of course to recover with it. It takes a lot of time to perfect it. When I first transitioned from PM -> to Smash 4 PKT2 I always SD'd because of not using PK Bounce and hitting walls, but I've gotten use to it!

In a bracket I had this Pit Player who took both my stocks by not hitting my PKT1 but by waiting for me to PKT2, and then jump down on me to make the momentum slower, which caused me to fall. I was so salty but that hasn't happened to me since then. LOL I ended up replaying him in bracket and beating him!

@ Earthbound360 Oh I know you meant PKT1, haha I somehow transitioned to talk about PKT2 xP

 

[Meccs]

I ended up replaying him in bracket and beating him!

That's the best feeling, knocking out the person who put you into losers.

I think, depending on the stage, PKT2 can be a good move to use. Like on Delfino or Halberd: Hit somebody off, chase them offstage with PKT but miss, and loop in under the stage and into yourself when they try to punish you. I get kills like this a decent amount for what it is.

 

[Earthbound360]

:0 Such great insight from the both of you! I agree with the both of you guys. Do you guys also do this? I've noticed when they're off stage and you're standing on the edge, and you hit them with PKT1 it brings them towards you sometimes, I usually go for a U-air when this does happen, I've gotten a lot of kills this way too!

PKT2 is such a risky move, but I love it. I use it as a spacing tool, a Kill Move, an approaching tool, To Rack up damage, and of course to recover with it. It takes a lot of time to perfect it. When I first transitioned from PM -> to Smash 4 PKT2 I always SD'd because of not using PK Bounce and hitting walls, but I've gotten use to it!

In a bracket I had this Pit Player who took both my stocks by not hitting my PKT1 but by waiting for me to PKT2, and then jump down on me to make the momentum slower, which caused me to fall. I was so salty but that hasn't happened to me since then. LOL I ended up replaying him in bracket and beating him!

@ Earthbound360 Oh I know you meant PKT1, haha I somehow transitioned to talk about PKT2 xP

Yeah that PKT1 tactic is what I was referring to. It doesn't combo, but like I said, if you read the air dodge (they probably don't have a double jump), you can do some REALLY mean things to them, possibly a bthrow of bat. Uair is still good too.

PKT2 is good but I would refrain from abusing it. You can get mad punished if people just sit and block it.

And congrats on the win lol. Gotta watch out for that orbitars gimp.

 

[Meccs]

What is nice is PKT2's cooldown is significantly less in 4. Your opponent has to be somewhat close to punish you for landing with it. Before unless they were off the other ledges, chances are you'd get punished

 

[Waael]

Yeah that PKT1 tactic is what I was referring to. It doesn't combo, but like I said, if you read the air dodge (they probably don't have a double jump), you can do some REALLY mean things to them, possibly a bthrow of bat. Uair is still good too.

PKT2 is good but I would refrain from abusing it. You can get mad punished if people just sit and block it.

And congrats on the win lol. Gotta watch out for that orbitars gimp.

I'll make sure to switch my options with a F-Smash instead of a U-air! I don't think I've tried F-Smash personally after having that PK1 scenario happen!

PKT2 is extremely punishable if it doesn't hit someone or if it hits a shield but its so fun! Yeah I think I went into beast mode in that set because I personally didn't plan on using it consistently right after another, but hey! Its fun I'll make sure to use it less though, I don't want to become too predictable. The two players we actually played against are both on the Norcal PR List and are consistent teammates. They both know who I was while my partner was new to tournaments in general and we only practiced doubles 2 days in advance, but he did a great job as sonic!

And thanks EB360 :D

What is nice is PKT2's cooldown is significantly less in 4. Your opponent has to be somewhat close to punish you for landing with it. Before unless they were off the other ledges, chances are you'd get punished

If I remember correctly was PKT2 also stronger (Knockback wise) in Brawl when Ness hit an opponent?

 

[Ffamran]

These are some gameplay of Japanese Ness from terminalkai. This is Ness vs. Palutena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbhELEmrMUw.

vs. Yoshi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E6MGZTfNKs.

 

[Earthbound360]

These are some gameplay of Japanese Ness from terminalkai. This is Ness vs. Palutena: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbhELEmrMUw.

vs. Yoshi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E6MGZTfNKs.

Good lord, this man has his PKF ATs down. He uses pivot PKFS, PK Jumps, DJC PKF, and even managed to use the ever tricky reverse PK Jump. In addition to that, he aims his PKT2 bounces well, tailwhips like a boss, and even closed out the match with a jab lock.

His tech skill is quite impressive, and he's a pretty good player from the looks of it to back it.