Lucas' Weekly Matchup Discussion Review - Diddy

[Brinzy]

It's not that bad. I do it just fine with Ness. This isn't to say that there is no effect on PKT, but it's not god awfully hard like people make it sound.

Then again, I have a good connection...

 

[Tyr_03]

The real question is, why on earth are we still talking about a character who hardly anyone uses and even fewer people are even decent with when we have yet to discuss characters like Diddy Kong or ROB who are actual threats in tournament settings? I really couldn't care less if people from their boards come in with reasons why their character is "underrated." Thus far, they have not proven it through wifi matches or, more importantly, tournament or money matches between qualified players in real time. Character matchup numbers are inherently biased and opinionated even at advanced stages of the game. So early after Brawl came out, we can only expect that almost all of these numbers will vary overtime as the metagame developes and new players arise. So make an opinion. There aren't enough PT players right now to even come close to what will eventually be the accurate number. No one has a lot of experience in this matchup due to the simple facts that there are very few high calibur Lucas players and very few high calibur PT players. So put in a number and move on to a character that can be more accurately evaluated and will be more useful to discuss for competitive environments.

/rant

 

[ZMan]

Ah, I see.



Someone test that. I would, but my Wii is currently unavailable.

Johns.

And I agree with Tyr. Let's cover a character that we'll actually see in a tournament, like Falco or ROB or some **** tlike that.

 

[PSI Locke22]

i wouldn't agree wiht your theory, Itburns, because pokemon trainer is way better tahn lucas

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

i wouldn't agree wiht your theory, Itburns, because pokemon trainer is way better tahn lucas

excuse me? you better hve some kind of proof to back this up. You can't just come into a character discussion saying that your character is "way better" than another without some kind of proof....

*sits down on the couch* im waiting good sir

 

[PSI Locke22]

if any of you dont mind can i face one of you in brawl as a lucas battle

 

[Brinzy]

I think that overall, we need to stop with ____ is better than ____ comments. This ALWAYS happens.

 

[PSI Locke22]

proof why lag is a curse, it screws up pk thunder. lag is banned

 

[Steeler]

excuse me? you better hve some kind of proof to back this up. You can't just come into a character discussion saying that your character is "way better" than another without some kind of proof....

*sits down on the couch* im waiting good sir

hey look at my sig. ^________^

yo dude are you going to the hutch tourney?

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

hey look at my sig. ^________^

yo dude are you going to the hutch tourney?

ya im one of the ones driving down there. I wonder if affinity is bringing his recording stuff so we can get more matches done.

 

[Steeler]

lemme ask him right now.

 

[heytallman]

ya im one of the ones driving down there. I wonder if affinity is bringing his recording stuff so we can get more matches done.

Chaos, did you come to a Houston tournament recently? I saw a Lucas with the tag "chaos" over it, and I was just wondering if that was you.

Also, can we get some set numbers on this matchup?

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

Chaos, did you come to a Houston tournament recently? I saw a Lucas with the tag "chaos" over it, and I was just wondering if that was you.

Also, can we get some set numbers on this matchup?

yup i went to hobo 11

 

[heytallman]

yup i went to hobo 11

We should have friendlied. I saw you playing in pools, getting beat by T-Rex's Snake lololol. You ever gonna come back for another HOBO?

 

[Blackbelt]

more like


Didn't feel like reposting things I've said in earlier posts.

I looked at all previous arguments to come up with 50-50, so unless you have something enw to add, you just sit down, shut up, and drink your god ****ed tea.

Chaos, did you come to a Houston tournament recently? I saw a Lucas with the tag "chaos" over it, and I was just wondering if that was you.

Also, can we get some set numbers on this matchup?

Tomorrow morning the set numbers will be put in the OP, and the next discussion will begin.

 

[soccerdude7200]

k

why has everyone been discussing pokemon trainer for so long??

It think it been more than a week...

 

[Blackbelt]

k

why has everyone been discussing pokemon trainer for so long??

It think it been more than a week...

Dude, it's a 3 in 1 character.


Of course it's gonna take more than a week.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

We should have friendlied. I saw you playing in pools, getting beat by T-Rex's Snake lololol. You ever gonna come back for another HOBO?

lol ya i almost beat him but its snake so =P

and ya i live in freakin kansas so hobo is like a 10 hour drive for us.....probably wont be comming down there for a while XD

 

[Steeler]

sooooooo

chaos, tell me how you feel about this

i think charizard has a slight disadvantage without any grab crap, and about neutral if charizard can chaingrab lucas...not sure if he can or not. unlikely. i'd assume with the extra-inch di that a standing infinite is no longer possible, but that a dash grab or shield canceled dash grab is still possible. basically, nair is bad for charizard. the air in general is bad for charizard, UNLESS he can bair you. bair has very nice range for charizard, and can kill. but if you are under zard, above him, or in front of him, then you definitely can have a field day. on the ground, it's really close to even, possibly edge to zard because of how great his grab is against lucas. off stage, pkt bothers zard a lot. zard fair bothers lucas a lot as well. if you are forced to use pkt2, zard can just fair you out of it for a ko. and he can go exceptionally low to do it, with two air jumps and fly. lucas doesn't always have to use pkt2, but it's something to be aware of, for sure.

i think ivysaur has an advantage on lucas. it doesn't really matter who camps who...because neither character will accomplish much. razor leaf comes out quicker, but lucas does have his fsmash. what it really does is just allow both parties to get in closer to really battle, since it's a break in the projectile spamming. reflected razor leaf doesn't bother ivysaur much, it moves pretty slowly.

anyway, ivysaur's bullet seed is insanely fast. it can interrupt lucas's normal jab combo. lack of hitstun + bullet seed = oh man...i'm starting to think that frame 1 bullet seed is pretty reasonable now. it's the one move that i think lets ivysaur put up a fight at close quarters (jab range). at mid range, ivysaur's bair REALLY bothers lucas. it outprioritizes/ranges everything he has. when used properly, it even cancels out pk fire with no damage to ivysaur. it has that much range. approaching in the air is difficult for lucas.

on the ground it's kind of the same story. the problem is that max-spaced bair also outranges what lucas has on the ground, perhaps even fsmash. not that you should rely on a 14 frame smash attack to counter a 5-6 ish aerial with pretty equal range. it's a really annoying brick wall for lucas to get through, and it makes a great combination with ftilt or pivot grab to stop an attempt to dash into bair, shield, and then attack ivysaur.

on stage, ivysaur's keep away is very effective against lucas. the thing that keeps this at a minor advantage ivysaur is that lucas gimps ivysaur effectively and safely. basically, lucas has to work pretty hard on stage to do anything effective to ivysaur...but get him off stage, and you have the upper hand.

might put some squirtle stuff later, i'm tired. chaos, if you want you can discuss what you think of squirtle. i'm a little less sure about him atm.

in an overall matchup, pt doesn't even need to use charizard until one of the two players is at high percent, to either kill quickly or just make that stock last as long as possible. still not sure about grab release to dtilt, i think i'm doing it wrong. that or it's escapable.

 

[Levitas]

No sadgrabs on lucas. This is established. Zard info is pretty accurate. Lucas recovers high, though (usually). Zard's slow in the air. I guess sometimes fair works (that priority is nuts).


Camping is important in lucas vs ivysaur. Whoever camps better forces the other to approach, and since neither are particularly good at approaching and both specialize in repelling approaches, whoever is approaching is at a disadvantage in general. I'm saying that camping isn't for damage racking, but it shifts the game one direction or another based on stage control and pressure (pressure being a loose term, neither projectile is good at real pressure).

Ivy bair does undoubtedly outrange everything that lucas has. The reason it isn't broken in this matchup is that Ivysaur doesn't have better aerial movement than lucas's movement (air and ground). Steps for determing if you should avoid being close to ivysaur: 1. Is his back facing you? 2. Is he in the air? If yes for both, GTFO with a pk fire or something. Best thing Ivy will do is airdodge, another option is razor leaf and trade with your pk fire. If Ivysaur uses bair immediately on the jump, then it'll be in the air for a bit longer and you'll take a little damage. Oh well.

fsmash doesn't have much range. Ftilt has extremely comparable range, and it's a frame 6 hit.

Honestly, I think you're overrating Ivy's onstage game. When's the last time you were caught off-guard by a samus's bair? Ivysaur's is only marginally better.

That's about all my mind is willing to allow coherence for tonight, I'm kinda tired. hopefully I didn't say something compeletely off, but I really don't think that's the case.

 

[Irsic]

Ivy's bAir is extremely easy to shield and continue onward. I just don't have a problem moving toward or away from Ivy's bair.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

ivy's ground game is pretty good, he has a lot of range and some really quick attacks, ivy's dtilt is very fast and outranges, plus she has bullet seed, and she doesnt have to do a bair while lucas is on the ground....i think it is 55/45 or 60/40 for ivy

 

[Tyr_03]

For the love of God move onto the next character. Nobody gives a **** about Pokemon Trainer. Definetly not worth this much attention. Just because another scrub comes on here with "ZOMG YOU'RE WRONG. POKEMON TRAINER IS WAY BETTER THAN LUCAS!!!" doesn't mean we have to continue the conversation. Give it a ****ing number and move on. This is boring as ****. I don't care if it's three characters in one. It doesn't matter if hardly anyone even uses him.

 

[Blackbelt]

*sigh* Why is it that whenever anyone discusses the PT matchup, it always leads to everyone getting pissed off at eachother?


Whatever, nothing new came up, so I'm moving onto someone that actually matters.



Falco.

 

[prOAPC]

Falco? Why was the hint Two of Two?

 

[ZMan]

If ya'll don't want to be *********** ********ters you should contribute to my Counter pick thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204091

As for Falco, he really can't camp us too much due to PSI magent, and we can't camp him that much due too he reflector. Just try too keep your spacing so you don't get grabbed. For edge-guarding try spacing a usmash when he side-bs on the stage, I've done it before.

I think it's like, 60-40 in Falco's favor, maybe worse, maybe better.

 

[Blackbelt]

Falco? Why was the hint Two of Two?

Because the character wasn't gonna be Falco, but I went with him instead of the planned character in order to bring intelligence and goodwill back to the topic.

If ya'll don't want to be *********** ********ters you should contribute to my Counter pick thread.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204091

As for Falco, he really can't camp us too much due to PSI magent, and we can't camp him that much due too he reflector. Just try too keep your spacing so you don't get grabbed. For edge-guarding try spacing a usmash when he side-bs on the stage, I've done it before.

I think it's like, 60-40 in Falco's favor, maybe worse, maybe better.

I think it's 50-50 personally.

 

[heytallman]

When I play against Falcos, it seems like I can jump out of the chain grab fairly early. If you get grabbed near the edge at a low percent, of course save your jump for the spike. Just use your best smash DI and hope you can get out.

PSI magnet stops long range laser spam, but try not to use it up close, Falco is fast and can run at you and hit with a dash attack or upsmash. As for his reflector, it is pretty annoying.

Edgeguarding is pretty easy if he tries to side B onto the stage or if it's on a stage he can't sweetspot on (Delfino, for example). Just upsmash him out of his side b, it's quite satisfying. Other than that, just use your typical edgeguarding, I don't know if PK thunder can hit him through his up or side b though. I bet somebody else here knows though.

I personally don't see this matchup as being TOO problematic.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

for PKT edgeguarding you have to hit him with the tail first to knock him out of his side B animation and then hit him with the head.
if you just hit him dead on with the head against the side B it'll win, but if you hit him with the side of the head, the PKT will disappear and falco will get hit and take damage.
tail first, then proceed is how i always do it.

 

[8AngeL8]

I'd say the matchup is 60/40 Falco's favor, maybe even 65/35. Despite Lucas' reflector, a good Falco player will still be unpredictable and slip in the occasional laser.

Lucas is vulnerable to the Dthrow -> FFDair -> Dthrow - FFdair chain grab, which does just as much damage as the normal one, and Lucas isn't heavy enough to really absorb that much damage.

Lucas gets outranged by Falco's Ftilt while grounded, and Falco's Bair, Nair, and Dair make him win out in the air as well.

Falco is light enough that he needs to be scared of getting killed by the quick Fsmash at fairly low percent, but Falco should be spacing himself well enough with Ftilt and jab combo that he isn't in range of the stick anyway.

I think Lucas' biggest advantage over Falco is how easy he is to gimp, but Lucas can be gimped as well. so that kinda goes both ways.

Overall, while Falco doesn't shut lucas down, I think he overall has the advantage if he's smart with spacing. If he just charges in with dash attacks and poorly spaced aerials, Falco will lose for sure, but I think a smart Falco can get this matchup to 60/40 or 65/35

 

[Blackbelt]

I'd say the matchup is 60/40 Falco's favor, maybe even 65/35. Despite Lucas' reflector, a good Falco player will still be unpredictable and slip in the occasional laser.

Lucas is vulnerable to the Dthrow -> FFDair -> Dthrow - FFdair chain grab, which does just as much damage as the normal one, and Lucas isn't heavy enough to really absorb that much damage.

Lucas gets outranged by Falco's Ftilt while grounded, and Falco's Bair, Nair, and Dair make him win out in the air as well.

Falco is light enough that he needs to be scared of getting killed by the quick Fsmash at fairly low percent, but Falco should be spacing himself well enough with Ftilt and jab combo that he isn't in range of the stick anyway.

I think Lucas' biggest advantage over Falco is how easy he is to gimp, but Lucas can be gimped as well. so that kinda goes both ways.

Overall, while Falco doesn't shut lucas down, I think he overall has the advantage if he's smart with spacing. If he just charges in with dash attacks and poorly spaced aerials, Falco will lose for sure, but I think a smart Falco can get this matchup to 60/40 or 65/35

I question whether or not Falco's Bair, nair, and Dair win out in the air.


I myself have never had any such problems, and I ask that we (The Lucas' and Falco's) look into this, as the aerial battle will be quite important in this particular matchup.


And Lucas is actually pretty **** hard to gimp.

 

[Levitas]

Falco beats lucas in the air in pretty much all cases.

Falco is still hands down lucas's easiest high tier matchup.

Phantasm sometimes goes through fire, but not always (for some reason)

 

[Veril]

Onstage the advantage goes to Falco undoubtedly. Offstage is a totally different matter. Lucas has a massive advantage edgeguarding.

-If Falco is forced to use his up-b to attempt to sweetspot the edge Lucas has an absurdly easy time KOing. The rope-snake wins. This basically means any b-air spike kills (if you can hit with it).

-You can mess up phantasm with d-air.

-If falco recovers onstage with up-b you can sometimes get off the up-smash... we know what that does.

-When getting back onstage from the edge you can almost always either hit with the upsmash, the f-smash (pivot, maybe), or a pivot grab if he tries to use an aerial off a jump. Timing is the key to making these unpunishable.

-Falco can't gimp a Lucas that knows what they are doing. If Lucas has a second jump left the gimp will always fail. If Falco hits and the Lucas does not die (DI and SDI can usually guarantee this) he gets the second jump back and recovers. Even without the second jump a combination of Psi-M stalling, tether, and PKT2 (which is actually really safe if done right) will get Lucas back onstage. + Lucas has a mean ledgecamping game.

-If lucas is recovering above the stage: magnet pull... Lucas can recover from anywhere on the stage basically.

-Lucas can just chill out offstage for a while, Falco falls stupidly fast. This makes any mistake on the Falco's part much more dangerous.

 

[soccerdude7200]

Just stay out of his chain grab, although lucas can recover from it fairly easily.

It just racks up quick damage, and then you're in a hole unless you already gave him a decent amount of damage

 

[ZMan]

Falco beats lucas in the air in pretty much all cases.

Falco is still hands down lucas's easiest high tier matchup.

Phantasm sometimes goes through fire, but not always (for some reason)

Lucas is at an advantega against DDD so stfu.

After playing a Falco today, I'm leaning more towards 50-50. Maybe 55-45 Lucas favor, but that's just wishful thinking more than factual proof.

 

[Blackbelt]

Lucas is at an advantega against DDD so stfu.

After playing a Falco today, I'm leaning more towards 50-50. Maybe 55-45 Lucas favor, but that's just wishful thinking more than factual proof.

I'd like to add that the D3 board disagrees with that matchup (Though they haven't actually had an indepth Lucas discussion) so either they're wrong, or we're wrong.



And yeah, 50-50 is where I'm going.

 

[Bubbleman_Nsider]

Falco?

I'm having a reeeaally hard time fighting Falco. They usually do those 'lag-less' lasers and approach with Side-B or Dash Attack -> Up Smash. Otherwise, Chaingrab to 50%, Spike (Which can be recovered). Even cancelling PSI Magnet still could leave you vulnerable to another laser... :S

PK Thunder's head fails to gimp Falco's Side B, makes it easier for him to get on stage... Yet, as someone stated before, the tail is the key here.

 

[DemonicTrilogy]

When versing a Falco, learning how to meteor cancel helps cause your going to run into a lot of early meteors during the match. Also, don't be afraid to PK fire occasionally but don't spam it or else the Falco with anticipate it and use reflector the next time your jumping.

 

[heytallman]

At a tournament yesterday, I saw a very good Lucas just about going even with a very good Falco. I also played a Falco, and won easily (although the guy wasn't that good, was pissed off already, and SD'd at about 15%). I would probably say 50-50 on this matchup.

 

[Irsic]

Ugh, this is one of my worst match ups. The problem with Falco is when he starts getting predictable, Lucas' begins to punish extremely hard. Problem is is that a good Falco will rarely become predictable.

Tilts screw up Falco's range pretty badly. Falco's jab combo is extremely annoying. PKT really hurts Falco offstage.

Lasers are predictable but our PSI Mag doesn't necessary come out fast enough, I have quite a bit of problems stopping Lasers and I really don't get to absorb them *that* often.