Lucas, Roy, Ryu (1.0.8) Community Patch Notes

[Ffamran]

It's frame 28. All of the hits of his f-air have a 4 frame gap now, EXCEPT the last one, which is only 2 frames.

Here's a gif with the hit-lag frames cut out and the frames the move hits on highlighted in a red border (also show the damage counter so you can see the numbers change per hit):

You can see that the gap between the 5th and 6th hit is half that of the others.

Oh great, so Dantarion lied to me!

Timings all been changed and I don't know when the last hit's supposed to happen 'cause no data dump. In the past, Falco's Fair was like this: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=falco&mode=view104#subaction-069. Without knowing that... So, basically Falco's Nair, Fair, and Uair all became almost entirely different moves. Fair hit slower pre-patch while the current, patch 1.0.8 Fair hits like Brawl Fair - I'm pretty sure Brawl Fair was pretty fast hitting. The last hit hitting 2 frames earlier would explain why it's much easier to connect the last hit with the landing hit.

def game_69():
    AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=6.000000, )
    unk_170(0xD, 0x2100, )
    AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=12.000000, )
    Hitbox_02B(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x16E, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x3C, BKB=0x0, Size=5.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=5.500000, X=12.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x6, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, )
    Hitbox_02B(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x16E, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x3C, BKB=0x0, Size=5.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=5.500000, X=8.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x6, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, )
    AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=35.000000, )
    RemoveAllHitboxes_014()
    Hitbox_02D(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=4.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x91, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x37, Size=6.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=5.500000, X=12.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 2.500000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 5.500000, 8.000000, )
    SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=2.000000, )
    RemoveAllHitboxes_014()
    AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=54.000000, )
    unk_16F(0xD, 0x2100, )
    End_196()

 

[Shaya]

IASA used to be seen in basically every move's programming and the command would show up the frame before a person could act.

"Brawl" Marth Down Tilt
Asynchronous timer, frame 21: Allow/enable Interrupt
First frame of another action (i.e. shield) would be frame 22. FAF is how I interpret that.

Stop being annoying about these terms, yes IASA is an awkward/"literally" incorrect term; get over it.
Why do we like the Interrupt frame? because it saves us doing +1 or -1s for calculations for safety or disadvantages/etc etc.

 

[LancerStaff]

It's almost but not quite off-topic but that cannot be true what you say LancerStaff. You do not nerf Sheik's b-air or diddy kong's d-throw combos because they work exceptionally well in FFAs. In fact virtually none of these changes in this patch or the last have any noticeable impact whatsoever on FFAs. Likewise Samus has absolutely no specific advantage in FFAs - which I play a fair bit of - compared to many of the other characters in this game. Samus does not suddenly acquire a new level of priority in her attacks because there's more than one person on the screen, in fact you're more likely to try something and get bounced and juggled like a rag doll if a pack of swords and other disjoints are flying around the screen. Homing missiles continue to be one of the worst moves in the game and you're not suddenly able to shield grab people better. When the %s are constantly changing landing the narrow window big 50+ damage combos Samus is capable goes to the wayside in a hurry. There are more - not less - reflectors in for-fun, everything from pokemon to standard items. Shield breaks become almost irrelevant. There are NO power ups to the kill projectile - Charge Shot remains 25% damage and same knockback if you get a super-mushroom or any other bonus effect.
I honestly believe he has a mental block with this character and I view his declaration at the demo as nothing short of trolling. Because you cannot, legitimately, sit down and code a 16 frame startup 94 frame total grab into a game of paper/rock/scissors shield/attack/grab and then in the same breath allow up-B out of shield to clank, and the jab1->2 only work at high percents. The tool tip blurb about the charge shot coming out "instantly in the air" at 16 frames is just a bit rich too.
The current patch, is again, trolling. 300+ hours I've put into the character right now and I feel trolled. Literally. Thank you for your pittance few frames on my grab game Mr. Sakurai, great job.

You still don't understand... Sakurai balancing 1v1s is a mere side project.

Diddy's dthrow combos... No, it has little effect on the character for FFAs. Most of the time you're going to be interrupted. Samus isn't nearly as terrible as you say either. Spam charge shots, avoid direct combat. She only gets better with items since she'll be farther away from the group and thus closer to distant items. Never once have I seen somebody complain about her FFA performance, and most certainly not this much.

Sorry, but certain characters have to be bad in 1v1s to be balanced for FFAs. Samus will always be bad by design and there's little that can be done. She's not going to be fixed to any degree that will satisfy you. Quit complaining because nobody will listen.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Oh great, so Dantarion lied to me!

Timings all been changed and I don't know when the last hit's supposed to happen 'cause no data dump. In the past, Falco's Fair was like this: http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore2/index.php?char=falco&mode=view104#subaction-069. Without knowing that... So, basically Falco's Nair, Fair, and Uair all became almost entirely different moves. Fair hit slower pre-patch while the current, patch 1.0.8 Fair hits like Brawl Fair - I'm pretty sure Brawl Fair was pretty fast hitting. The last hit hitting 2 frames earlier would explain why it's much easier to connect the last hit with the landing hit.

def game_69():
    AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=6.000000, )
    unk_170(0xD, 0x2100, )
    AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=12.000000, )
    Hitbox_02B(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x16E, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x3C, BKB=0x0, Size=5.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=5.500000, X=12.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x6, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, )
    Hitbox_02B(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x16E, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x3C, BKB=0x0, Size=5.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=5.500000, X=8.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x6, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, )
    AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=35.000000, )
    RemoveAllHitboxes_014()
    Hitbox_02D(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=4.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x91, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x37, Size=6.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=5.500000, X=12.000000, 0x2, 0x0, 2.500000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0x1, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x3, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 5.500000, 8.000000, )
    SynchronousTimer_20B(Frame=2.000000, )
    RemoveAllHitboxes_014()
    AsynchronousTimer_0D0(Frame=54.000000, )
    unk_16F(0xD, 0x2100, )
    End_196()

Thats a rehit rate you lemon

IASA used to be seen in basically every move's programming and the command would show up the frame before a person could act.

"Brawl" Marth Down Tilt
Asynchronous timer, frame 21: Allow/enable Interrupt
First frame of another action (i.e. shield) would be frame 22. FAF is how I interpret that.

Stop being annoying about these terms, yes IASA is an awkward/"literally" incorrect term; get over it.
Why do we like the Interrupt frame? because it saves us doing +1 or -1s for calculations for safety or disadvantages/etc etc.

IASA AND FAF ARE THE SAME FRAME

 

[Miles_himself]

I just arrived here on Smashboards to help step up my game, and I'm glad Marh got a bit better this patch. But can someone tell me what IASA means?
Thanks~

 

[A_Kae]

I just arrived here on Smashboards to help step up my game, and I'm glad Marh got a bit better this patch. But can someone tell me what IASA means?
Thanks~

IASA stands for Interruptible As Soon As. It's the first frame during a move that you can go to doing something else.

Edit: You might want to take a look at this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

 

[LuigiSmashBros]

RIP IN HOO-HAH, Diddy Kong

 

[Vipermoon]

IASA stands for Interruptible As Soon As. It's the first frame during a move that you can go to doing something else.

Edit: You might want to take a look at this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

Well it's in the Smash dictionary but what are we going to call the end frame of a move? I can't believe the community is divided up on what IASA means (I prefer it to be FAF-1 but not the point). How in the world are we going to communicate frame data to each other if different meanings are assumed!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well it's in the Smash dictionary but what are we going to call the end frame of a move? I can't believe the community is divided up on what IASA means (I prefer it to be FAF-1 but not the point). How in the world are we going to communicate frame data to each other if different meanings are assumed!

It's never been FAF-1.

NEVER.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's never been FAF-1.

NEVER.

Well Shaya wasn't the only person I've heard it was -1 from. All I'm saying is there are definitely people who believe this. I'm obviously now aware of what's correct.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well Shaya wasn't the only person I've heard it was -1 from. All I'm saying is there are definitely people who believe this. I'm obviously now aware of what's correct.

Oops, I thought perhaps you still thought that. I have no idea where this misconception has arisen from. @ Shaya even proved it unwittingly himself when he said IASA frames on Marth dtilt in Brawl was frame 21 BECAUSE BRAWL USED TO DO INPUTS ON THE NEXT FRAME THEY WERE GIVEN AS COMMANDS.

It's important and I'm not crazy.

I'm not sure who, or what started this "IASA and FAF frame are different trend", but it needs to stop, so please correct anyone who says this because it's been this way since Melee (I dunno if 64 used the term IASA to define FAF).

 

[Vipermoon]

Oops, I thought perhaps you still thought that. I have no idea where this misconception has arisen from. @ Shaya even proved it unwittingly himself when he said IASA frames on Marth dtilt in Brawl was frame 21 BECAUSE BRAWL USED TO DO INPUTS ON THE NEXT FRAME THEY WERE GIVEN AS COMMANDS.

It's important and I'm not crazy.

I'm not sure who, or what started this "IASA and FAF frame are different trend", but it needs to stop, so please correct anyone who says this because it's been this way since Melee (I dunno if 64 used the term IASA to define FAF).

To quote Shaya some more, "IASA used to be seen in basically every move's programming and the command would show up the frame before a person could act."

But is this true? Did we happen to adopt it differently than what it meant in programming?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

To quote Shaya some more, "IASA used to be seen in basically every move's programming and the command would show up the frame before a person could act."

But is this true? Did we happen to adopt it differently than what it meant in programming?

It's only true in Brawl where commands were given the frame before.

Every other game has commands given on the frame it happens.

And no, it was not seen on "basically every move's programming", it was seen on like, half at best lol.

Many moves don't have IASA prompts, which is why it's a garbage term (since it's a misnomer and FAF just makes more sense and is less confusing).

 

[Vipermoon]

I was unaware of this difference in Brawl. Makes sense now. I'm going to sleep.

 

[LRodC]

Can somebody confirm if Swordfighter's forward air has increased range from 1.0.6/7? That was a rumor from a while ago in this thread and I'm not sure if it was ever confirmed or documented.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I've switched to saying FAF since Smash 4, because the acronym is just much less confusing for all the new players than IASA is. That being said, I've never heard people try and differentiate the two terms. That would be silly. There IS a difference between FAFs and autocancel windows on aerials, transition points on jabs, and other, specific actions. When we talk about those moves, clarification is necessary. So Brawl had FAF numbers that were a frame off? That's weird, but it has nothing to do with this game. Especially since we haven't found those juicy numbers in the game's code. So far, we've had to frame count for ourselves, and that's a slow, arduous task that need not to be complicated for the sake of the previous game's faults.

Can somebody confirm if Swordfighter's forward air has increased range from 1.0.6/7? That was a rumor from a while ago in this thread and I'm not sure if it was ever confirmed or documented.

Assuming you meant 1.07/8, yes. The hitbox data differences spell out a a size increase for Fair.

 

[Diddiot]

Ok not sure if this was mentioned in the last 10 pages but some of those Diddy changes are seriously noticeable buffs.

Obviously the up air change sucks. But to be honest that move was still pretty silly just because of the hitbox that could hit below Diddy while also covering his entire upper body. The animation is the same though, it just has less active frames, so you can still use the move for many of the same situations besides like SH up air approaches and free combo breaks at close range disadvantage. (lol)

D-tilt getting reduced damage makes it combo into more D-tilts and grab more easily. Edit: Wow d-tilt to jump cancel up-smash kill combo is very easy now.

Diddy now has a functioning jab, something that will allow him to keep his D-tilt, SH fair and other moves fresh longer for more damage on ALL of his other grounded options. I can't believe people aren't more excited that Diddy's jab isn't useless because it's most likely bugged anymore.

Up throw 8% to 5% is a MASSIVE buff. No longer do Diddy players have like a 6% window to true link up throw to up-air for the kill since up throw now sends the opponent a much shorter distance. I did some light testing was able to true combo that on Mario and Pac-Man up to 135% easily even with 135% rage, killing them on FD. Obviously with DI this will be more difficult but this is seriously noticeable compared to the way it was before the patch and Diddy is going to have much less trouble closing stocks now. Hoo-hah is back.

Grab end lag increase sucks but the startup is the same and Diddy should be setting up guaranteed grab setups and combos using peel traps and d-tilt more than he should be fishing for raw grabs anyway. And with that fact that d-tilt now links to grab easier and Diddy's up throw is now much more threatening it seems like a pretty fair change.

Diddy feels at least as good as he was, if not better. The changes make sense for the character and he feels very complete and well designed now. Lower damage isn't just automatically a nerf, guys. Lower damage also decreases KB and sometimes allows for combos and kill setups which would have been impossible before.

Once again, absolutely no reason to drop Diddy.

You're completely wrong about the upthrow upair closing easier. Prepatch I grabbed Marth at 115 and he was dead to uthrow uair. Now in training it won't kill until I grab at 130. However, the bigger issue is that if the opponent plays intelligently, you will never be able to kill with uthrow uair. At the percentages where you can start killing, they can just air dodge thru and the reduced knockback growth means that frame trapping with uair won't kill. At the percentages where the frame trap will kill (which is stupidly high) they can jump out with no risk. Uthrow has lost all utility as a kill option.

Furthermore, the severely increased knockback on dthrow has turned it into a garbage early percent combo option. The opponent can DI far away from Diddy, and this, combined with reduced range on uair, means that with correct DI dthrow to uair is no longer possible. Only forward air can be confirmed out of dthrow, which doesn't set up into any other options. Ironically, dthrow has become Diddy's worst throw, as uthrow bair bair can confirm into more damage at low percents than dthrow set ups can. At high level Diddy play there is no longer any reason to use dthrow.

 

[Krysco]

What does FAF stand for? I'm familiar with IASA and I've seen people throwing both terms around so I thought they were different things. Apparently they're the same or at least similar?

 

[Shaya]

Thanks for reminding me about that awful 'acts out a frame later' thing; I remember people using that without +1ing it because it coincided with the last frame before you could act/total amount of frames still. The rule was "hitboxes are starting up a frame later, Interrupt is gud".
But, maybe it's a long-term Marth thing, but people did frame data before data damps and termed it IASA.
http://smashboards.com/threads/marth-frame-data.204825/ (2008 bomb-drop)
For the most part I don't use the term IASA at all for this very reason.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

What does FAF stand for? I'm familiar with IASA and I've seen people throwing both terms around so I thought they were different things. Apparently they're the same or at least similar?

First actionable frame.

It's pretty self-explanatory. It's the first frame you can act on out of a commitment.

 

[Ulevo]

I am sort of tired of every commentator and Smash player incorrectly pronouncing IASA because they do not even know what it stands for.

Please just use first actionable frame and keep it simple. This reminds me of that "reverse aerial rush" nonsense.

 

[LRodC]

First actionable frame sounds a lot better to me. Call it FAF if you want, the concept is easy enough. Interruptible as soon as frames sounds more jumbled to me as well as the acronym.

 

[A_Kae]

FAF is simpler to understand the meaning, less to actually say, and pronounceable as an acronym.

Now if only people were to start using it instead of IASA.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I have to slow down mid sentence to say "IASA" frame. FAF doesn't sound too much better, but it's definitely been resulting in less comments, forum replies, and messages of people asking what the term means. And that's much more important for communicating something to people about a competitive fighting game.

Did I just hear somebody dissing "arr-ay-arr Bair"? I'll fight somebody for the right to say that.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

So...wait...would FAF also be used instead of IASA in terms of stuff like jab transitions, or would we still use the term IASA for that?

Just asking 'cause I can change the term on my frame data sheet if you guys want me to.

 

[A_Kae]

I have to slow down mid sentence to say "IASA" frame. FAF doesn't sound too much better, but it's definitely been resulting in less comments, forum replies, and messages of people asking what the term means. And that's much more important for communicating something to people about a competitive fighting game.

Did I just hear somebody dissing "arr-ay-arr Bair"? I'll fight somebody for the right to say that.

FAF is way better for speech. IASA is an unpronounceable mess, FAF is easy.

RAR bair is horrifically redundant.

Edit:

So...wait...would FAF also be used instead of IASA in terms of stuff like jab transitions, or would we still use the term IASA for that?

Just asking 'cause I can change the term on my frame data sheet if you guys want me to.

I would support IASA being used for transitions. Would give use to the term instead of having it just be the same as FAF.

 

[Vipermoon]

@ LordWilliam1234

But when using IASA for transitions will you add a frame?

 

[Miles_himself]

@ LordWilliam1234

But when using IASA for transitions will you add a frame?

I see you're a prominent Marth main, respectable. Got any tips you can share? (no pun intended)

 

[Vipermoon]

I see you're a prominent Marth main, respectable. Got any tips you can share? (no pun intended)

I'll PM you if you want but this isn't the place for tips (pun intended)

 

[LordWilliam1234]

@ LordWilliam1234

But when using IASA for transitions will you add a frame?

When frame counting for frame transitions, the IASA frame I have is the frame that the next move starts (e.g frame 9 for Falco's jab 1). The game data has the IASA frame as one frame before that though...

...I'm not sure which to use. What the game data says (according to the data dumps posted here) or how I count it.

 

[A_Kae]

When frame counting for frame transitions, the IASA frame I have is the frame that the next move starts (e.g frame 9 for Falco's jab 1). The game data has the IASA frame as one frame before that though...

...I'm not sure which to use. What the game data says or how I count it.

Why not both?

Have the final frame of the move listed in your table, and in the same cell as that, put the first frame another action can start in brackets next to it.

Edit: Like this for a 50 total frame move. (act on 51)

End Frame [Action Frame]

50 [51]​

Is there a way to have fixed width tables?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Is there a way to have fixed width tables?

smashboards tables are ****ty, so no.

 

[LordWilliam1234]

Why not both?

Have the final frame of the move listed in your table, and in the same cell as that, put the first frame another action can start in brackets next to it.

Edit: Like this for a 50 total frame move. (act on 51)

End Frame [Action Frame]

50 [51]​

Is there a way to have fixed width tables?

No, that's not what I meant. I mean, for example, in the data dump we have Link's jab 1:

Enables transition to next jab state on real frame 10

While when I frame count, jab 2 starts on frame 11.

My question is, for my frame data sheet, should I list the IASA frame as the frame the next move starts on (which is how I count it), or how the in-game data has it (which seems to be consistently one frame earlier)?

 

[Vipermoon]

No, that's not what I meant. I mean, for example, in the data dump we have Link's jab 1:



While when I frame count, jab 2 starts on frame 11.

My question is, for my frame data sheet, should I list the IASA frame as the frame the next move starts on (which is how I count it), or how the in-game data has it (which seems to be consistently one frame earlier)?

I think you should go the in-game route.

When people see the in-game IASA frame for jab 2 and they see the frame jab 2 comes out they can do this: okay so jab 1 is frame 7 and IASA says 10 so if jab 2 comes out on frame 6 then it comes out on frame 16. Just simple addition required.

They might think it comes out on frame 17 if you said 11 because of simply forgetting/not knowing to subtract 1.

 

[Saviorr]

Sorry, but certain characters have to be bad in 1v1s to be balanced for FFAs. Samus will always be bad by design and there's little that can be done. She's not going to be fixed to any degree that will satisfy you. Quit complaining because nobody will listen.

Wow you actually think FFA is meant to be balanced and competitive?
Making a character more viable in 1v1 is simple, improve the character's frame data.
Falco can combo now with his better frame data and Link's grab is more useful now that it's faster and has more range.
Why can't the same kind of buff be given to Samus?

Side note: Most buffs and nerfs that affect competitive 1v1 gameplay don't have a big affect for casual FFA gameplay.

 

[LancerStaff]

Wow you actually think FFA is meant to be balanced and competitive?
Making a character more viable in 1v1 is simple, improve the character's frame data.
Falco can combo now with his better frame data and Link's grab is more useful now that it's faster and has more range.
Why can't the same kind of buff be given to Samus?

Side note: Most buffs and nerfs that affect competitive 1v1 gameplay don't have a big affect for casual FFA gameplay.

That's what Sakurai wants, yes.

Samus can't be fixed because she's supposed to be weak up close. Fixing her frame data nixes her greatest disadvantage in FFAs and would make her a monster. Actually, that's probably what happened when Sakurai called her the best character: He tried to make her viable in 1v1s but it broke her in FFA, so he undid it.

 

[b2jammer]

That's what Sakurai wants, yes.

Samus can't be fixed because she's supposed to be weak up close. Fixing her frame data nixes her greatest disadvantage in FFAs and would make her a monster. Actually, that's probably what happened when Sakurai called her the best character: He tried to make her viable in 1v1s but it broke her in FFA, so he undid it.

So, Samus is doubles only, basically.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ LancerStaff I find it hard competition for my rational factual arguments vs. your vague assertions.
For the record I do not think Samus is "bad" in 1v1. She can't be, almost every move combos into something else, true combos. I still maintain this character is "good" but the skill cap is astronomic because all those combos are narrow range.
What Samus needs is slightly larger hitboxes and a faster grab. That's it. Not some major overhaul. If she had a useful homing missile in neutral (i.e. slower, more damage), this character would immediately shoot up to top tier.

I'm irritated by this recent patch because Sakurai is clearly willing to chop 10+ frames off of certain moves (ninja's f-tilt?!) and massively buff Link's grab, but not Samus'.

More to the point of this topic, you brave and good people working through all the frame data - Samus' aerial landing lag get any boost? Sorry if I missed mention of it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

@ LancerStaff
What Samus needs is slightly larger hitboxes and a faster grab. That's it. Not some major overhaul. If she had a useful homing missile in neutral (i.e. slower, more damage), this character would immediately shoot up to top tier.

I'm irritated by this recent patch because Sakurai is clearly willing to chop 10+ frames off of certain moves (ninja's f-tilt?!) and massively buff Link's grab, but not Samus'.

More to the point of this topic, you brave and good people working through all the frame data - Samus' aerial landing lag get any boost? Sorry if I missed mention of it.

In 1.06, the Usmash was given larger hitboxes, and in this patch more killing power. Her grabs were improved similar to the tune of Link's but not as much. 4 frames shaved off standing and pivot grab. Sounds like you got what you wanted. I tested for other differences in lag like I did all characters, but all I found was the grab.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ LancerStaff I find it hard competition for my rational arguments vs. your vague assertions.
For the record I do not think Samus is "bad" in 1v1. She can't be, almost every move combos into something else, true combos. I still maintain this character is "good" but the skill cap is astronomic because all those combos are narrow range.
What Samus needs is slightly larger hitboxes and a faster grab. That's it. Not some major overhaul. If she had a useful homing missile in neutral (i.e. slower, more damage), this character would immediately shoot up to top tier.

I'm irritated by this recent patch because Sakurai is clearly willing to chop 10+ frames off of certain moves (ninja's f-tilt?!) and massively buff Link's grab, but not Samus'.

More to the point of this topic, you brave and good people working through all the frame data - Samus' aerial landing lag get any boost? Sorry if I missed mention of it.

Not really a "vague assertion" when you've made several topics just so you could complain how Samus wasn't buffed enough... Actually, how is my argument any less rational then yours when you were just completely wrong on how Sakurai acts?