Lucas : Ness Speculation Thread. Lucas Ness Styled Costume Added!!!

[lookatthatbaconsizzle]

As someone who played Ness more than any other character in Melee, I have this to say, which I think is true for all but the most extreme fanboys:

LUCAS rocks and is cool, and if he replaces NESS that's fine.

HOWEVER,

I WANT A CHARACTER WITH A FREAKIN' COOL HOME RUN BAT AND YO-YO!

- Tell me if my point isn't true?

I think this may be the reason he didn't give out those moves today... to keep ya guessin!

 

[camzaman]

Its not a question of translation- although there have been spelling errors before. However look at wordchoice and the fact lucas has new moveset. Up until now was used for mario's move updates for the spin attack. And the spin attack is still in! Now if Sakurai got rid of a fan favorite, i doubt he would write him off through a hint that can taken many different ways. IM NOT SAYING NESS IS IN, however he still does have a chance, and anyone who thinks he is def in or out needs to look at all facts and situations.

This is a good point I think that many have ignored b/c they focus only on the "until now," I think Sakurai would clearly state it (if Ness is out) when Lucas was first announced or if this update if Lucas was a replacement. He knows the fanboys and likes to be nice and explain things well...

Hopefully like you said he will settle it tomorrow, lol.

 

[Wolffe]

This is a good point I think that many have ignored b/c they focus only on the "until now," I think Sakurai would clearly state it (if Ness is out) when Lucas was first announced or if this update if Lucas was a replacement. He knows the fanboys and likes to be nice and explain things well...

Hopefully like you said he will settle it tomorrow, lol.

You have a very good point here. He made it perfectly clear that Assist trophies were going to be unplayable, etc. and it seems kinda odd that he made a huge comparison with Ness without mentioning his dismissal from the series, if Ness really is cut

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

The french translation also deconfirms him... why should you adapt to Lucas if Ness is in the game?

Guys, you're forgetting Sakurai wanted to replace Ness with Lucas in MELEE. Why not now? It's sad, but you HAVE to let go.

 

[camzaman]

You have a very good point here. He made it perfectly clear that Assist trophies were going to be unplayable, etc. and it seems kinda odd that he made a huge comparison with Ness without mentioning his dismissal from the series, if Ness really is cut

Yeah, I've thought he was out this whole time until reading Masterbraz or whoever I quoted's post.

Why would Sakurai:

A - mention Ness directly, and the fact he's been in since the beginning
B - point out that Lucas' moves are very different to Nesses (although b moves similar)
C - not specifically mention that Lucas is Ness' successor rather than partner in the game

The bottom line for me is, he mentions Ness overtly, but then doesn't say Lucas replaces him. Now I'm about 50/50 whereas before I was sure he was out.

I now think it's quite possible that Lucas has half of Ness' moves, and Ness will keep half (bat, yo-yo, hopefully his weird jump) and get some new ones... I hope...

 

[camzaman]

The french translation also deconfirms him... why should you adapt to Lucas if Ness is in the game?

Guys, you're forgetting Sakurai wanted to replace Ness with Lucas in MELEE. Why not now? It's sad, but you HAVE to let go.

The Melee thing is a good point. However, I speak French (fluently), it doesn't de-confirm him at all. I still think he's likely out, just maybe not 100% sure...

 

[Wolffe]

The french translation also deconfirms him... why should you adapt to Lucas if Ness is in the game?

Guys, you're forgetting Sakurai wanted to replace Ness with Lucas in MELEE. Why not now? It's sad, but you HAVE to let go.

No it doesn't, and if it did, it'd be wrong, since it'd have been from the Japanese translation, which also doesn't 'deconfirm' him

 

[camzaman]

(Just for Reference)

FOR Ness:
- Didn't expressly say Ness was out during Lucas updates
- Said Lucas' moves were quite different than Ness'
- Been in the last two Smashes
- Even Lucas' similar moves are modified slightly, like a "clone"
- (Fanboy reason) - I arbitrarily want a home run bat, yo-yo, and funky jump move (don't care what character)

AGAINST Ness
- The Phrase "until now"
- Sakurai was going to replace him in Melee, then didn't
- Lucas moves are modified, but still VERY similar
- Ness was only in 1 Mother game (correct?)
- (Fanboy reason) Lucas is just as cool, if not cooler, despite the lack of bat and yo-yo

 

[Wolffe]

- Ness was only in 1 Mother game (correct?)

Correct, but so was Lucas, so I don't know if this really counts as an 'against'

 

[harpuia190]

Lucas's moves are different in that of his physical attacks, and even then not that much, Basically Lucas is the de-nerfed ness

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Well, the japanese site does use the japanese equivalent of "up until now..."

Besides, wouldn't say, the spanish translator, (the spanish wording is the most deconfirming one) call up Sakurai to be absolutely sure about what they were writing? Wouldn't anyone hit anyone up to be absolutely sure?

They wanted to replace him in Melee... why not now?

 

[Kix]

1)

There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar. They are from the same family of PK users.

But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves.​

What does this necessarily mean? Up until now? Beg to differ everyone, but I don't see this as an de-confirmation. Up until now can also mean that this may be the last smash? Can be HIS last smash? Can be anything? Yeah, pretty much. I'd still like to share thoughts anyway. Lucas has a different set of standard attacks, well maybe not entirely. But still, pretty darn close.

2) Similarities!
Ike & Kirby.
Pikachu & Sonic.
Link & Ike.
Fox & Bowser.
Mario & Samus.
And so on.

Remember, what was just said above doesn't have anything really about Ness or Lucas, but more or less to show that characters can be similar. Clones look like they're out, but Seriously? Mario and Luigi, Fox and Falco. Don't want to say anything but I feel like, "What's one without the other?" Brawl seems to avoid as much as they can from cloning. Perhaps from Lucas' Specials, Ness' will be different if he were to return? Just imagine his moveset. His PK fire could be similar to Zelda's Din's Fire. That is, if it were to return. His PK Flash can have an electricity type stun as Lucas' has a freeze effect to his PK Freeze or whatever. Not saying anything definite, but Come on. We have to look at the good and bad. Now if Ness were not to return, Oh well? I'm sure people would be hurt if he weren't to return, but what if he did and was completely nerfed to the extreme? Would one feel more angered that they made him not to their expectations? People, just think, please.

3)

What do you think about Ness, and his absence in Brawl so far?

Please, I urge people to express anything they'd like to say.​

1) "Up until now" means "up until this point". This "point" being "Brawl". When something is there up until a point that is whatever is being currently referred to this would seem to infer that at the point of referrence(Brawl) that whatever is being mentioned would no longer apply.

Now wouldn't mean "later".

2) Of course characters can have similarities without being clones. Move properties distinguish differences, but appearences are what most people were complaining about in Melee. Although of course in melee normals pretty much looked very close to the same in "clones" special moves are most defining. The similarities you mention are actually pretty different, the closest probably being Kirby's upB and Ike's but the properties are still different and the majority of their special moves are obviously not close.

Unless Ness is redone and Sakurai "mispoke" then I am not seeing the argument that it is any more likely. The most likely scenerio is Lucas is simply the replacement.

3) Lucas could practically pass for him in the looks department. Minor differences in outfit would make him Ness. I would miss his normals though.​

 

[camzaman]

Well, the japanese site does use the japanese equivalent of "up until now..."

Besides, wouldn't say, the spanish translator, (the spanish wording is the most deconfirming one) call up Sakurai to be absolutely sure about what they were writing? Wouldn't anyone hit anyone up to be absolutely sure?

They wanted to replace him in Melee... why not now?

I don't think the translators go to that much trouble, they're not as obsessed as some people on these forums.

 

[Wolffe]

Well, the japanese site does use the japanese equivalent of "up until now..."

Besides, wouldn't say, the spanish translator, (the spanish wording is the most deconfirming one) call up Sakurai to be absolutely sure about what they were writing? Wouldn't anyone hit anyone up to be absolutely sure?

They wanted to replace him in Melee... why not now?

The fact that they wanted to replace him is pretty damming, but I believe 'up until now' was just a poor choice of wording for 'so far'. When you translate the whole sentence it's much more like 'Lucas is similar to Ness, a character that has been in all of the previous Smash Bros. games so far'.

 

[specialsauce]

some how the way he keeps brinin ness up makes me wonder if ness might still be in cuz also update when lucas was announced he said something like "Is it possible he can surpass even Ness?! for him to truly surpass ness he would have to be able to fight him right?

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I don't think the translators go to that much trouble, they're not as obsessed as some people on these forums.

That much trouble. A phone call.

Shut up.

It's their job, and they have to do it well.

 

[Wolffe]

That much trouble. A phone call.

Shut up.

It's their job, and they have to do it well.

It's not a question of translating a piece of text here; it's the case of choosing the correct wording for the context. They didn't know the context and they made it misleading, it's not a case of how professional they were, it was a case of knowing the game.

 

[cynar]

Movesets are different enough which means they are not clones, so Ness is likely to be back.

 

[Kix]

Movesets are different enough which means they are not clones, so Ness is likely to be back.

Considering what was considered "clone" in the last game this actually still fits the definition, at least in regards to special moves.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

*Sigh* You guys are just trying to find loopholes and technicalities.

Besides, japanese site:

ima = now
made = until

You're in denial.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Movesets are different enough which means they are not clones, so Ness is likely to be back.

Yea, their moves could go in the way of Ganondorf or Luigi, who weren't technically true clones.

Sakurai could do nothing to Ness, and he would be an almost completely different character. Specials are for the most part, not the extreme determinant of a clone, and even so, Lucas' specials very so much from Ness, they PK Freeze and Thunder are almost different moves. PK Freeze freezes, it doesn't explode and PK Thunder doesn't move diagonal in the air, and it looks as if the pillar of fire is diagonal. These are about as similar as Luigi's moves were to Mario.

and the whole, Ness isn't equal to Luigi, he is. The first american Mother character, a staple of Smash Bros, and pretty much the american face of the series has no true cons to not be in smash bros. Given the current data, there is no way to be 100% sure of anything, and personally I am on the side of the positives. I'd love Ness to return. It would be unfortunate for Ness to be replaced by a pretty much unknown character (to everyone but Japan at least). Ness IS known all around the world, as the little boy from Earthbound/Mother2 who was in Smash Bros.

The few smash attacks of Lucas we were given were actually more similar to Mewtwo than Ness to be honest.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Yea, their moves could go in the way of Ganondorf or Luigi, who weren't technically true clones.

Sakurai could do nothing to Ness, and he would be an almost completely different character. Specials are for the most part, not the extreme determinant of a clone, and even so, Lucas' specials very so much from Ness, they PK Freeze and Thunder are almost different moves. PK Freeze freezes, it doesn't explode and PK Thunder doesn't move diagonal in the air, and it looks as if the pillar of fire is diagonal. These are about as similar as Luigi's moves were to Mario.

and the whole, Ness isn't equal to Luigi, he is. The first american Mother character, a staple of Smash Bros, and pretty much the american face of the series has no true cons to not be in smash bros. Given the current data, there is no way to be 100% sure of anything, and personally I am on the side of the positives. I'd love Ness to return. It would be unfortunate for Ness to be replaced by a pretty much unknown character (to everyone but Japan at least). Ness IS known all around the world, as the little boy from Earthbound/Mother2 who was in Smash Bros.

The few smash attacks of Lucas we were given were actually more similar to Mewtwo than Ness to be honest.

Except that Sakurai cares so little for Ness he would have replace him with Lucas in Melee if he could've.

What PK Fire got was an improvment, and one that I would have wanted for Ness BTW.

And WTF?? Appearing in 2 Smash games and a game that FLOPPED () HARDLY makes him as important as Luigi. Mother 2 wasn't released in Europe, so he isn't known worldwide.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

not a game that flopped

it's a cult classic, and Nintendo has made it apparent that they know of it as that

He's known worldwide from Smash is what I meant. Like Marth, if he were in a game people would instantly recognize him.

And where does the Earthbound icon fit into this. If the icon theory holds true (and more facts point to it being true than to Ness being out) than Earthbound is still considered a "veteran" series. It is placed as Mother (if you belief in the order), leading to the ambigious belief that Ness would be in.

The wording and his "luigified" moveset just seem to stand out more as Ness returning.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

not a game that flopped

it's a cult classic, and Nintendo has made it apparent that they know of it as that

He's known worldwide from Smash is what I meant. Like Marth, if he were in a game people would instantly recognize him.

Eh? Just because a game is a cult classic doesn't mean it's successful. In fact, it is mostly games that are UNsuccessful the ones considered cult classics.

 

[Wolffe]

*Sigh* You guys are just trying to find loopholes and technicalities.

Besides, japanese site:

ima = now
made = until

You're in denial.

Yes, but that's a restrictive definition of these words. These words are a lot more flexible, than the English 'now' and 'until'. Think of it as 'Up to the present' if you prefer.

 

[blizzard18]

I think that now that Lucas is in (and given Ness' old moves) that Ness will be out.

It would make no sense to give Ness the new moves.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I think that now that Lucas is in (and given Ness' old moves) that Ness will be out.

It would make no sense to give Ness the new moves.

no it wouldnt, which is why most of Lucas' moves are very different from Ness'

 

[Bajef8]

no it wouldnt, which is why most of Lucas' moves are very different from Ness'

most of his moves are different? all his specials are the exact same besdies PK Freeze which is the same except it freezes you instead of blowing you up. and PK fire which just got modified.

 

[Barbeque]

If I was a Ness main then I would almost definetly main Lucas in Brawl.

 

[Cojiro]

Would the hardcore Ness fans be disappointed if:

1) Ness is out, Lucas replaces him. AND
2) Lucas is comparable to SSB64 Ness. AND
3) Ness is a full costume for Lucas. AND
4) Claus gets in.

?

 

[Mike2000]

This is something die hard Ness fans REALLY need to consider....

There is really heavy evidence of Ness' removal, and the Ness fans refuse to let go. I think this is silly, and I will explain why.

Let me be the first to state that I have never HATED Ness, as I was a fan of Earthbound from the very beginning. I don't want people to assume I have it out for Ness, but I do want people to understand the logic behind why Ness is as disposable as an individual character.

First and foremost, I want to bring up the SSE. We all know that the SSE will be a completely unique storyline involving the franchises of the Nintendo cast, battling and uniting against one another for different goals only known to them.

Earthbound's story did little to nothing to develop the character Ness was. The rest of the cast had more depth to them then Ness had, as Ness was the cliche chosen one with a silent demeanor. There was a story, but it was as linear as you could get. The crucial aspect of a storyline is character development, as it helps the player relate and understand the troubles and emotions a character can go through. Ness had pathetically poor character development, if any.

I can basically sum up the story of Earthbound in a few words: Chosen one goes off to battle evil entity to save the universe. It's as basic as you can get, and the fact that there is little to no development of the main hero only helps to further the player away from the story as a whole. The key thing that dragged people into the story was the random and quirky happenings of the Earthbound world. Overall though, the main oomph of the story loses ground when the protagonist is as deep as a puddle.

What does this have to do with anything? Well, for starters, Lucas HAS depth AND a strong sturdy storyline complete with twists and turns set in a very mature overtone. This factor alone gives Lucas far more priority seeing as how SSE will borrow elements from the franchise's respective games to mishmash them into the overall scheme, (from the looks of it so far.) Even though the SSE is not solely dependent on any individual franchise, as it only borrows a small bit from each, it does carry over the personality traits of the characters as well at what makes them the character that they are. My point is this: Which character do you think would have more of an impact SSE wise? The blank cookie-cutter guy, or the guy with a storyline and a background, as WELL as a personality?

The answer is quite obvious now isn't it?

Now I am in no way saying Earthbound is not important. It is hands down THE most important game in terms of social awareness. Without Earthbound, the America's would not have known about the Mother franchise as a whole. Without Ness, the world would be blind to Mother, only those who did enough lurking would be able to uncover the franchise as it is strongly Japanese based.

With Ness came Mother, as Earthbound served as a messenger for the rest of the world. This alone makes him important in his own right...

However, Ness' role is done, It was done way back when Earthbound hit game store shelves as a SNES title. He planted the seeds so to speak. Although Ness' role is complete though, people are hung up on him. After all, he IS the face of Mother in the America's, so it is perfectly understandable. That is why it is so hard to imagine Ness not in Brawl, seeing as how he played such a crucial part of making the rest of the world see Mother. I can understand that, but to continue to believe that he is THE single most important character is silly, as Lucas has proven that HE is the true face of Mother, complete with being a true character and having a true story to back him up.

It is with all this knowledge that I became fine with the idea of Ness not being his own individual character. He has done it twice already, and it is about time he stepped aside and let Lucas take his spot as the face of Mother. It is how it was supposed to turn out from the very beginning of Smash, but there was simply problem after problem that hindered Lucas' availability to the Smash scene. Ness did a great job warming the seat so to speak, but as a stand alone character compared to Lucas, Ness is nothing more than a filler...

Which brings me to my next point. Earthbound deserves it's recognition in Brawl, but it does not deserve to be repped for a third time in Brawl with a playable character. We got our Mother rep, Lucas, and he will do a fine job carrying the flag so to speak. However, how can Earthbound still shine in the world of Brawl without cluttering the roster with a depthless character? A level, Earthbound specific item, maybe even an Earthbound specific AT.... something...but the best thing I can come up with is an alt costume which will perfectly rep Earthbound as it's own game, but at the same time not clutter the Mother name.

Ness is essentially a depthless avatar in the grand scheme of Earthbound's story... an avatar of which fits perfectly to scale with Lucas' Brawl model. A simple application of this outfit to Lucas and voila, we have two characters for the price of one. Think Daisy/Peach, Falcon/Blood Falcon. Sure they were color swaps, and not exactly palette swaps, but Lucas would be special in this case.

After all, Lucas has quite a few of Ness' moves, and Ness was an important face in Mother history. I think they could go the extra mile and incorporate this actual costume change for the sake of coherence and tidiness. The best part with this idea though, is that Ness as a standalone character does not lose relevance, because, as I have said before, Ness has little to no personality whatsoever, he technically, IS a blank avatar, unlike Lucas....

So there you have it. I hope this educates you all as to why Sakurai and Sora Ltd. can totally get away with removing Ness from Brawl as a playable character. There is just simply no reason to have him as a stand alone character no more. His role had been complete a long time ago, and he was basically still in because Lucas was fashionably late when arriving to Brawl. Now that Lucas is here, it is only fair for Ness to step aside and let a TRUE character reign precedence as the face of mother.

 

[axemangx]

Would the hardcore Ness fans be disappointed if:

1) Ness is out, Lucas replaces him. AND Duh..
2) Lucas is comparable to SSB64 Ness. AND Brawl is different from 64, man.
3) Ness is a full costume for Lucas. AND Entirely possible.
4) Claus gets in. Yup. No doubt there, even though he has no chance.

?

Dont forget, they have different animations for the attacks from the games.

For all we know, the MOVE NAME will be the same, but for all we know, how bout a complete B moveset change? You know, same move NAME, but different properties.


Wouldnt that make sense?

 

[Ginger9001]

If I was a Ness main then I would almost definetly main Lucas in Brawl.

I'll admit I am not a Ness user and hardly ever play as him but for some reason it just pisses me off that they would do such a thing as to switch Ness out for some other guy. I mean, why? What's the point? No one really knows who Lucas is. I mean, yah, a lot of Americans don't even know who NESS is, but now we pretty much love and respect him for being in all the other Smash Bros. games. So if Lucas is going to replace him, Lucas can just kiss my ***. If I'm not able to see a little crazy-***, psychic kid with a baseball cap and a backpack, hitting people with yo-yos and smacking people in the face with a baseball bat on the new game, then shame on you, SSBB.

 

[Ginger9001]

I'll admit I am not a Ness user and hardly ever play as him but for some reason it just pisses me off that they would do such a thing as to switch Ness out for some other guy. I mean, why? What's the point? No one really knows who Lucas is. I mean, yah, a lot of Americans don't even know who NESS is, but now we pretty much love and respect him for being in all the other Smash Bros. games. So if Lucas is going to replace him, Lucas can just kiss my ***. If I'm not able to see a little crazy-***, psychic kid with a baseball cap and a backpack, hitting people with yo-yos and smacking people in the face with a baseball bat on the new game, then shame on you, SSBB.

Ok, my bad. lol I'm not really sure why I put that as a quote to that one guys statement. I'm an idiot. haha

 

[MookieRah]

Except that Sakurai cares so little for Ness he would have replace him with Lucas in Melee if he could've.

Where did you get a statement from Sakurai that tells us his dislike of Ness? Seriously... where did this come from? Why does Sakurai hate Earthbound, but love Mother 3? There is absolutely no proof, as to this is all assumed because of the rumor from Starmen.net.

 

[Django_EXE]

I don't see the problem, because Lucas has almost the same moves as Ness, has a deaper story line, and is IMO cooler. The only problems are that he's Japan only, But so were Marth and Roy and now FE is popular in EU/NA, and Ness super-fans, who would like Lucas at least equally if they gave him a chance.

 

[Ginger9001]

I dont see the problem, because Lucas has almost the same moves as Ness, has a deaper story line, and is IMO cooler.

I guess it's just the bonding of a certain character for people. It's just not the same. No one cares if Lucas has the same movesets, or how much better Lucas is, its just the character itself that people liked so much. And how is Lucas cooler? >.>

 

[MookieRah]

he's Japan only, But so were Marth and Roy and now FE is popular in EU/NA, and Ness super-fans, who would like Lucas at least equally if they gave him a chance.

No, he isn't like Lucas. Marth and Roy were brought over to hype up the Fire Emblem series before they released their games. Because of the popularity of these characters in smash, it helped the sales of their Fire Emblem games. Lucas can't promote Mother 3 sales because Nintendo of America opted to not bring it over.

In other words, he is a poor representative of EB, cause he isn't nearly as recognizable and has little impact worldwide in comparison to Ness. It's almost a slap in the face for a Japanese-exclusive to replace a character that is known worldwide.

 

[Django_EXE]

I guess it's just the bonding of a certain character for people. It's just not the same. No one cares if Lucas has the same movesets, or how much better Lucas is, its just the character itself that people liked so much. And how is Lucas cooler? >.>

*Points to Lucas* Heafty, Heafty, Heafty *Points to Ness* Wimpy, Wimpy, Wimpy

thats how

 

[Ginger9001]

No, he isn't like Lucas. Marth and Roy were brought over to hype up the Fire Emblem series before they released their games. Because of the popularity of these characters in smash, it helped the sales of their Fire Emblem games. Lucas can't promote Mother 3 sales because Nintendo of America opted to not bring it over.

In other words, he is a poor representative of EB, cause he isn't nearly as recognizable and has little impact worldwide in comparison to Ness. It's almost a slap in the face for a Japanese-exclusive to replace a character that is known worldwide.

I love you. I truly do. :3