Lucas : Ness Speculation Thread. Lucas Ness Styled Costume Added!!!

[FlatSoda]

Okay, let's get it started here.
Though, there's plenty of threads about this, I hope to make this one stand out and have plenty of members come to discuss, argue reasonably, and share their thoughts about this.

As I know well as anyone else, if anyone wants Ness to return, it's really not anyones decision for that. Lucas has seemed to make it to brawl this time but where does that leave ness? Your answer: Not our decision. Could this decision have been made already? Most likely. What's the decision? We won't know until we see actual confirmation of Ness.

Let's see, here's just some background information of what I already know.
I don't know much about Ness or Lucas, I'm just going to speculate as anyone else would, and share ideas. I haven't really played any earthbound game past 10 minutes. Sorry, Earthbound Fanboys. But just hear me out.

Mods, If necessary, move to Character discussion. I urge to not close this thread.
On to Lucas.

Lucas!

As seen on the update at the Smash Bros. Dojo on 11/8/07, Lucas' Special Moves.
It seems to me, and I'm pretty sure to most people who've played any smash game that Lucas has pretty much the majority of what Ness had. We see the hexagons, and several PK attacks.

There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar. They are from the same family of PK users.

But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves.​

What does this necessarily mean? Up until now? Beg to differ everyone, but I don't see this as an de-confirmation. Up until now can also mean that this may be the last smash? Can be HIS last smash? Can be anything? Yeah, pretty much. I'd still like to share thoughts anyway. Lucas has a different set of standard attacks, well maybe not entirely. But still, pretty darn close.

Where can we continue next? Ah, the images from the dojo.

This back air seems to be like a combination of Ness' neutral air and back air. To me, just the animations of Ness' Nair and probably everything else Bair, obv.​

PK Fire! This one is supposedly slightly different. Kind of like Mario's fireball and Luigi's Fireball comparison in Melee, yes? One moves in a different path and the other is completely horizontal. Not to say clones are back, but definitely characters are similar in brawl. But I'll get into that later.​

PK Freeze! Looks a lot like PK Flash, but still, obviously different. Nothing else to say here.​

PK Thundah!~ Not really much to say here, we can't tell how different it is until we actually play the game. Still, it looks mighty close to Melee's. At least the visual, we do know by GimpyFish's stickied thread that Brawl is definitely different than Melee.​

PSI Magnet, Looks exactly the same. Also, pretty much the description on the Dojo said it all.​

'Kay, what now? My opinions and arguements. From what I feel stronger to weaker.

Clones, Clones, Clones. They were in Melee, but as so far seen, not really in brawl. This time around, in my opinion, similar characters are here. But the way I look at them, the characters that share similarities are far apart.
Ike & Kirby.
Pikachu & Sonic.
Link & Ike.
Fox & Bowser.
Mario & Samus.
And so on.

You're probably going to think I'm crazy, but there's more to come. Let's take Ike and Kirby for example. If you're thinkin' like me, then you know what I'm about to say. Up Special! They're practically the same, just the animation is different.

Pikachu and Sonic! Don't know what I'm going to say here? Their Final Smashes. They both turn into a ball of AWESOME and fly around screen destroyin' everything in it's path. Don't get me wrong, they're different. If i'm correct, according to Gimpy's Sticky, Pikachu is harder to control, and shoots out uh..volts? Yeah, you get the Idea. For more information visit his sticky.

Link & Ike, Final smashes again this time. Both seem to lunge at an opponent, and slash the crap out of them. Link's seems more horizontal and Ike's seems more vertical. For more information, Gimpy's sticky.

Fox & Bowser, Again, Final smashes. This is probably one of the less similar ones. They both transform, and destroy everything in it's path. Fox and his Landmaster Tank, and bowser into GigaBowser. They're completely different, but the point is, TRANSFORMATION.

Mario & Samus, Final Smashes again. Sorry if this is just repetitive, but the point is, characters can be similar. Mario unleashes a wave of fire, samus unleashes her zero laser beam thing, or something. Both are horizontal and yeah, if you've seen, you get the point.

Remember, what was just said above doesn't have anything really about Ness or Lucas, but more or less to show that characters can be similar. Clones look like they're out, but Seriously? Mario and Luigi, Fox and Falco. Don't want to say anything but I feel like, "What's one without the other?" Brawl seems to avoid as much as they can from cloning. Perhaps from Lucas' Specials, Ness' will be different if he were to return? Just imagine his moveset. His PK fire could be similar to Zelda's Din's Fire. That is, if it were to return. His PK Flash can have an electricity type stun as Lucas' has a freeze effect to his PK Freeze or whatever. Not saying anything definite, but Come on. We have to look at the good and bad. Now if Ness were not to return, Oh well? I'm sure people would be hurt if he weren't to return, but what if he did and was completely nerfed to the extreme? Would one feel more angered that they made him not to their expectations? People, just think, please.

A weaker argument, with all this saying about Ness in Lucas' updates, it could be either two things. A tease to just toy with our minds, or hints that he's not coming back. The whole "Up until now" doesn't cut it for me. Honestly if he does return it wouldn't phase me. Same for if he doesn't return. I just felt like typing this up to share thoughts.

An even weaker argument, Lucas ends in S, so does Ness. Yes ends in S and rhymes with Ness. Sorry, just trying to be funny.

Now, for the questions I have for the Members.

What do you think about Ness, and his absence in Brawl so far?
If you are a Ness main, will you stick to Lucas if Ness were not to return?
What do you think about character clones, and similarities? Possible for ness, and being his last chance in Smash?
Do you have any points you'd like me to post up above?
Do you believe in what I said about Mario & Luigi, and Fox & Falco? What's one without the other?​

Please, I urge people to express anything they'd like to say.

NESS AS A COSTUME ARGUEMENT.

I've got to say, It's possible. Though, Peach was the only one I believe in Melee to have an entire different costume rather than a re-color.

As you can see, The "Daisy" costume is really different. From the Earrings to the dress, to the necklace. Ness as a costume, probably one thing that sticks out right now.
I've posted in another thread, and decided to bring here.
It is possible Ness may just be a different costume with some alterations to Lucas.

Photoshopped Ness:

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Lucas' psi magnet is different. It doesn't completely cover him like it did for Ness in Melee. Just figured I'd mention that.

 

[Winged Messiah]

Wow, this thread was way more detailed that the name suggested O.o.

 

[FlatSoda]

@ Pheonix, yes now looking at it, it does. But Only animation is different.

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Still will make the use of it different. He'll have to actually face the target. It's about as different as most of his other attacks. Which isn't saying much.

 

[FlatSoda]

What if it's able to tilt in any direction after initiation? Like to hold it to the left or above?

Seems, badass, but sadly no videos. We can't really tell.

 

[Shato]

I don't think it will tilt.

I disagree with your comparison to the 'clones', similar Final Smashes doesn't make them clone characters. The Pikachu and Sonic ones are the only that can relate at this point.

And I live in the 305 area too. :D

 

[FlatSoda]

never really wanted to say clones, but i meant similar. I don't think brawl will completely avoid similarites.

and, let's smash. >:U

 

[Florida]

Nice thread! =P

I don't think that clones will be back in Brawl (and by clones, I mean characters such as Ganondorf and how he stole Falcon's moveset in Melee). There will be similarities between a certain amount of characters, I believe. Take Mario and Luigi for example, they have almost the same moveset, but have different stats and functions. Another good example is Fox and Falco.

There will most likely be "clones" like this in Brawl. But not the type that were rushed characters, thus were granted another's moveset. (AKA: Ganondorf).

Ness' chances as I see it are 50/50.
Lucas' moves proved to be both different and similar, so it's sort of hard to speculate with just this. Really, unless Sakurai says so on the DOJO!!, we'll have to wait until the game is released in order to see if Ness is in or out.

 

[FlatSoda]

YES!!

I like my emphasis there. But, yes, I'm not really in favor of Ness. This sprung up in my mind and I do see his chances are indeed at 50%.

Like flipping a coin, you're either gonna get heads or tails. Ness is either a yes or no.
Think most people will handle Sakurai's decision? I will.

 

[Brawlmatt202]

Okay, I'm certain that Ness will return. Everyone is saying the odds are in favor of Lucas replacing him, and they might think that anyone that thinks otherwise is ingoring the facts or being ignorant fanboys.

But really I can see Ness in the game. Lucas would just simply be a "Luigified" somewhat Clone of Ness. Notice that Lucas's moves aren't IDENTICAL to Ness's (namely PK Freeze, The Up Smash, the Rope Snake, etc.). The same went for Luigi in SSBM.

Now, I'm not sure where I stand on the whole "Clones" debat; while I find near-exact clones like Dr. Mario, Pichu, Roy, and Young Link annoying, clones that aren't entirely like other characters, like Luigi and Ganondorf (to some degree) are okay. So, if Lucas and Ness are near-exact clones of each other, then that's fine by me.

 

[FlatSoda]

Agreed.

I also agree with your thoughts on clones. No matter how similar a character can be, there's still differences in any character that can be his/her advantage or disadvantage.

I am leaning on Ness returning as well. Luigi is indeed a perfect example, and didn't someone confirm at E for All? I remember seeing an interview with someone from Nintend0~

 

[Foxtorres]

my roomate Mains ness, he is great with him, and he says he is sad that Ness isnt returning, but guessing completely that Lucas has a Ness color scheme or outfit, the moves suggest their too similar to be considered to allow Ness back in or else that he would be a clone, those who are not familiar with Ness all too well, I play against Ness and also play with him a lot... the moves are way too similar... I just hope Ness will be a colorscheme for Lucas... Poor Ness... ;_; (played Mother 2 and Mother 3 and beat both here ) kinda funny, Lucas doesnt have PK Fire nor does he have PK Freeze... and ontop of that PK thunder <.< in mother 3 that is... wow this is totally out of whack, his moves look splendid tho, wonderful arial game im guessing, cant wait to play him!

 

[Cless]

I just have a question, does Lucas actually know all of the spells in Mother 3 that he uses in Brawl?

edit: Guess not. That'll teach me to read the whole thread and let someone post before me.

 

[FlatSoda]

Hadn't played any earthbound games, and he really doesn't have some of the PK moves mentioned on the Dojo?

Really befuddles me here.

 

[Cless]

No, but Ness didn't either. He only knew PK Flash if memory serves. He MIGHT have known PSI Magnet, but I don't remember anymore.

 

[FlatSoda]

See? It really helps to have posters. :]

Now I know something I hadn't.
But This is Smash, Not Earthbound. I guess it's Possible.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I don't think they will make Lucas a Luigified clone. This sincerely makes me believe Ness won't be back. You can't compare him to Luigi, because franchise character wise, it's not a necessity to have Ness... Besides, the Spanish site REALLY words it as a deconfirmation, I'm just curious as to what the Japanese site says exactly.

 

[FlatSoda]

I believe all the sites say something different, if I could have truly literal translations, I'd post them up, but Google Translator doesn't cut it. :/

 

[i rise]

the way i look at it it doesn't look like ness will be returning. it makes me sad in a way because i loved earthbound and mained ness in SSB64 every since i got the game when it came out. the one reason i'm kind of happy about this though is that perhaps lucas is more powerful or stronger than melee ness, which i think was a sad shadow of his former self. plus i can always go back and play melee or SSB64 if i really want to play as ness.

also on clones, i don't think falco, gannondorf, or any of them should return without their own movesets. but that's just my thoughts on it.

 

[Zek]

I'm 99% certain that Ness is gone. They would not have intentionally turned a new character into a clone. Lucas has been given every single one of Ness' specials. Yes, they've been changed, but these are the sort of changes Ness would have received were he still in.

 

[FlatSoda]

for your thought on clones, you wouldn't want Ness to return with a different moveset?

 

[Cless]

Totally off topic, but I haven't been here in a while so forgive me. I was reading Gimpyfish's thread and saw that you can do stuff after air dodging, which is awesome because I made a topic about that a while back.

Anyway, even if they do remove Ness, they can't even really put in someone else from Earthbound for American gamers. Paula has all the same moves in Earthbound as Lucas does in Brawl. Jeff and Poo might be interesting actually now that I think about it.

If Ness did have a different moveset, what would he have? His final smash would have to be PK Rockin, which might be Lucas' (haven't played Mother 3). They might have to change up PK Flash to make it different from PK Freeze. I think the rest of his spells were healing, shields, and teleports.

 

[FlatSoda]

I'm 99% certain that Ness is gone. They would not have intentionally turned a new character into a clone. Lucas has been given every single one of Ness' specials. Yes, they've been changed, but these are the sort of changes Ness would have received were he still in.

Not entirely Everything the same.

But how can you say that these are the changes Ness would've had?
We won't know untill the game is released and is completed.

This is what you think will back up your reason?

 

[i rise]

Jeff and Poo might be interesting actually now that I think about it.

i would love my life if poo was in brawl. i guess ness still has the home run bat and yo-yo as his own thing, so even though i highly doubt it, he's not as much of a clone as some of the characters in melee are. if ness returns or not, i'm perfectly happy with lucas being his replacement.

 

[Foxtorres]

No, but Ness didn't either. He only knew PK Flash if memory serves. He MIGHT have known PSI Magnet, but I don't remember anymore.

Yes Ness has PK Magnet, But Lucas in mother 3 does NOT have PK magnet

 

[ripman3]

I wouldn't care too much if Ness is gone if Lucas controls better.

*im hoping that the magnet can maybe have an additional affect on non-energy projectiles; maybe it could allow him to catch them and use them as throwable items (samus's missiles, diddy's peanuts, and physical projectile), and that the startup time is much faster, like to the point of mario's cape.

 

[Foxtorres]

Not entirely Everything the same.

But how can you say that these are the changes Ness would've had?
We won't know untill the game is released and is completed.

This is what you think will back up your reason?

I must say this, NO CLONE CHARS, they are way too similar ... I play Ness not main, and my friend does main ness... we both say the moveset is way too similar for there to be a Ness. hoping for a Ness costume for Lucas tho <3

 

[FlatSoda]

A costume seems to be satisfying for people.
how would you feel if fox got a falco costume?

 

[Zek]

Not entirely Everything the same.

But how can you say that these are the changes Ness would've had?
We won't know untill the game is released and is completed.

This is what you think will back up your reason?

I'm just saying that the fact they've changed is not evidence that he's Ness' "Luigi." These changes are just to make the moves better, if Lucas weren't here then Ness probably would have been changed in the same way. It makes zero sense that they would create a brand new character from scratch, completely unrelated to the previous character, and then just give him all that character's specials anyway. Lucas is Ness' replacement.

And it's ridiculous to say that Ness' moveset will be changed now. If they were going to do that they would have done it to Lucas.

 

[Gooche]

With the moves being that similar I doubt Ness will be in. Since they apparently wanted Lucas for Melee I go more over to the Ness-not-being-in side.

I can see the Mario/Luigi avenue with Lucas/Ness. It could end up being like Ken and Ryu from SF...who knows. I never really played as Ness but I hate to see original characters go.

One thing IMO is for sure though. If Ness does come back that opens the door for Falco. The same thing Falco comes back it opens it up for Ness.

 

[Foxtorres]

A costume seems to be satisfying for people.
how would you feel if fox got a falco costume?

Id be hella pissed, and I am hella pissed Ness is 99.9% not coming back from what he said in the update... so... all I can hope for is Lucas to have a Ness costume.

 

[Gilgamesh]

for your thought on clones, you wouldn't want Ness to return with a different moveset?

Wouldn't it be a little weird if they have a new character that inherits Ness' moves, and then have Ness returning with a new moveset? They would rather give Lucas the new moveset if that were the case.

 

[Gooche]

I'm just saying that the fact they've changed is not evidence that he's Ness' "Luigi." These changes are just to make the moves better, if Lucas weren't here then Ness probably would have been changed in the same way. It makes zero sense that they would create a brand new character from scratch, completely unrelated to the previous character, and then just give him all that character's specials anyway. Lucas is Ness' replacement.

And it's ridiculous to say that Ness' moveset will be changed now. If they were going to do that they would have done it to Lucas.

That is a good thought. And probably the mindset when they created Lucas. The evolution of Ness. Maybe they should have just upgraded Ness instead of creating Lucas.

 

[Mike87]

for your thought on clones, you wouldn't want Ness to return with a different moveset?

If Ness does come back I think he will have a new moveset.

 

[SpaniardSens]

I don't think they will make Lucas a Luigified clone. This sincerely makes me believe Ness won't be back. You can't compare him to Luigi, because franchise character wise, it's not a necessity to have Ness... Besides, the Spanish site REALLY words it as a deconfirmation, I'm just curious as to what the Japanese site says exactly.

I think the translation of the Spanish Dojo is something like this:
" Surely you'll remember Ness, a character that appeared in previous installments of Smash Bros. Well, Lucas looks a lot like him."

 

[i rise]

like gilgamesh said, why not just give lucas the new moveset? it makes no sense for him to return with new moves. but who knows, sometimes sakurai doesn't make sense.

 

[Foxtorres]

*MOTHER 3 (not really but kind of spoiler)*

BUT for you guys just to know, Mother 3 takes place 1,000 Years after Ness' Time .... LUCAS = NESS reincarnated... there is a special character who almost makes it pretty clear thats what Lucas is in Mother 3...

 

[PrinceOfSmash]

Ness is practically confirmed to be gone when sakurai said ness was in the game"up intil now"

 

[Tonic_Sonic]

Wouldn't it be a little weird if they have a new character that inherits Ness' moves, and then have Ness returning with a new moveset? They would rather give Lucas the new moveset if that were the case.

I'm not so sure about that. I've never played any of the Mother games and don't really know much about them, but maybe switching the move sets up would be more faithful or accurate to them?

If not, I think Ness deserves a new move set, and to be in this game. As I said in the other thread:

I don't see why you are all saying "Ness is gone" just because it says "There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now" It is saying that Ness hasn't yet appeared in this game, basically saying he isn't ANNOUNCED yet, not that he isn't in.

It also says "But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves."

He says himself that there are some differences. I don't see why Ness can't adopt a new set of specials and still be in. I think for a character and series that has been part of Super Smash Bros. since the beginning they deserve at least two representatives, and for Ness to be back in.