Lucas : Ness Speculation Thread. Lucas Ness Styled Costume Added!!!

[Foxtorres]

Did you play the game? There's a Zombie in Mother 3 dressed like Ness.

why yes, I beat the game if you check the first page of this thread I said some info about mother 3... and if you think those 2 zombies in the battle are ness your pretty rediculous ;P just because it has a striped shirt that doesnt even match ness' theres 2 of them in the same shirt and 2 female zombies... no connection.

 

[FlatSoda]

I don't see how Luigi applies to this argument. "Mario and Luigi" have been in a dozen or more games together, and you can name them around the world to people and they will know who you are talking about.

Ness and Lucas did not share a game, nor are they anywhere near as popular. Additionally, why would Sakurai totally change the existing character's moveset to and give the old one to a new character? Then all of the Ness players would change to Lucas anyway, and it only makes sense for the new character to get the new moveset.

Guess what: he didn't, he got the same one.


I disagree about this applying to Fire Emblem though, because Ike and Marth couldn't be more different...

Does it really matter? Importance is not here.
Being that Mario and Luigi have had plenty of games together, and that they're more known doesn't mean anything. Sheik, let's say was in one major game and wasn't even a playable character. Same with Zelda, but she's obviously well known. Does being known or popular really matter? I hadn't heard of Ice Climbers 'til i picked up Melee. Marth and Roy, same thing. Popularity, importance, popularity, importance. As i said earlier, Mario and Luigi being brothers, and more known DOES INDEED HAVE AN IMPACT, but where would that leave Waluigi to Wario? Fox and Falco are known for being on the same team, but look at it more indepth instead of what's concrete. Concrete structures have been known to crack.

 

[Kazydai]

Personally, I was hoping for Paula, Jeff, or Poo, but I'll take Lucas.

I've played Earthbound and it was an awesome RPG. I really liked Ness. I like playing as him and I'm sure I'll like lucas as well. I'd be sad if Ness wasn't in Brawl, considering he was one of the original 12 back in SSB, but I'd probably get over it, and just be Lucas. I just hope that Mother 3 comes here and fast, cause I'm not to fond of "Japan Only" stuff.

They could totally update Ness's moveset. I can think of tons of moves and items from Earthbound that would work.

Ness for the win.

 

[FlatSoda]

Quick Question:

If everyone is going by the Sakurai Says this and that, Wasn't it said that all Characters from 64 are returning?

Someone, assure me on this.

 

[Pluvia's other account]

Quick Question:

If everyone is going by the Sakurai Says this and that, Wasn't it said that all Characters from 64 are returning?

Someone, assure me on this.

Sadly, no.

 

[FlatSoda]

Sadly, no.

Thank you, Just came to mind.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Forget what's written in the update. Interpreting that it says this or that doesn't lead anywhere.

Still, the fact that 2 of Lucas' moves are exactly the same as Ness', one of them has a minor tweak in the air, and the last one seems like a modification (PK Freeze) is the main point here. He also has a tether recovery, but improving Ness' (or in this case, the ness-type character) recovery was something needed anyway.

Could they still bring back Ness, with a new moveset? Yes. But it would be stupid, it doesn't make any sense at all. The fact that it could happen is overshadowed by the sheer nonsense it would be (and i don't mean Smash's comical nonsense, i mean that it'd be ridiculous)

Also, stop arguing that those who say Ness will not return are Ness haters. I loved Earthbound as much as the next guy and Ness was always one of my favorites in Smash.

Seriously, the B moveset argument is solid. And Luigi's moves are vastly different from Mario's. I can't see how you can bring up the Luigi / Mario argument and compare it to Lucas / Ness with a straight face; it's like stabbing logic. Mario only got one B move changed and kept the other as an A attack. The way Lucas was implemented only leaves two choices for Ness:

A) Clone, which is unlikely.

B) New moveset, which is absurd since they would have given a new moveset to Lucas, not steal moves from Ness and give him new ones.

 

[Ginger9001]

God****it, why couldn't they have just kept Ness and made Lucas a little different? Did they REALLY have to do this??

 

[tstumo]

I Think Ness is gone. ive been saying it and it looks like the sad messed up truth. I think he will be a costume swap for Lucas. Sakurai gave Lucas a few moves that he would have alone but also alot of moves Ness would have if he were still in the game. so what Sakurai really did was give Lucas moves ness would have so that if you do change costume to ness it would still look believable and not so out of whack like a Ganondorf captain falcon thing.

 

[FlatSoda]

Gilgamesh:

Well said, well said.
The Mario and Luigi comparison, eh. It's not that strong of an argument. But let's leave it at what's possible, just is. Clone does look unlikely, yes. But keeping similarity, just might be it.
I've got to say, Ness does have a very slim chance. Costume, AT, appearing in the background of a stage, anything. An appearance would hopefully satisfy Ness fans. And! I do understand what you say about Luca's Moveset.

B) New moveset, which is absurd since they would have given a new moveset to Lucas, not steal moves from Ness and give him new ones.

Probably the simplest argument that makes sense. Maybe Ness will just have to go byebye, or new moveset. As I still see it, only having slightly different moves, or maybe even different moves to the extreme could be Ness' last chance.

orsomeveryunlikelylucasfinalsmashwherehetransformsintoness.

 

[Met]

People need to stop saying that lucas has all of ness's B moves he doesn't. I don't even like ness or the Earthbound seriese to be honest. his neutral B is not the same at all, his Up B looks the same. His PK fire goes sideways and makes a huge eruption of flame. And his down B looks like it covers only one side. He doen't seem like a clone at all, He has a tether grab and his standard attacks all look diffrenet. Even his back air is diffrent because it is a meteor smash which would mean that if it was as powerful as ness's you could still cancel out the move and survive it everytime.

Also i don't get this hating clone ****. Clones in melee play completely different then there original characters, with the exception of maybe doc and young link. But those still have to be played differently. Falco fox gannon cfal roy marth to me are basiclly diffrent characters all together.

I doubt they will take the original 12 out. And whats to stop them from changing ness's old moveset a bit since lucas's is already significantly different then ness's original. If they change ness's old one up a bit then there will be even more differences.

I'm pretty certian that they are also trying to flush out all the games that only had one or two characters. So I highly doubt that they will take him out... just because someone looks the same and has alot of the same moves doesn't mean that they are clones mario and luigi arn't and there looks like there are alot more or as many differences between ness and lucas as there are between mario and luigi.

 

[FlatSoda]

I doubt they will take the original 12 out. And whats to stop them from changing ness's old moveset a bit since lucas's is already significantly different then ness's original. If they change ness's old one up a bit then there will be even more differences.

:|
Exaaaaaactly.
A slight tweak to Ness would make them different.
I don't see why people see this impossible.

 

[Drclaw411]

:|
Exaaaaaactly.
A slight tweak to Ness would make them different.
I don't see why people see this impossible.

why tweak ness rather than lucas?

 

[FlatSoda]

why tweak ness rather than lucas?

why tweak Ness' attacks for lucas?
Why not?

 

[tstumo]

obviously people are still in denial

 

[Foxtorres]

thaught just occured to me, wonder if they could make a skin for Claus, Ness and Lucas all in one char if you choose the skin it changes the name, that would be cool... what would be cooler if they all had their own move set <3 Ooo sounds so shiny

 

[FlatSoda]

thaught just occured to me, wonder if they could make a skin for Claus, Ness and Lucas all in one char if you choose the skin it changes the name, that would be cool... what would be cooler if they all had their own move set <3 Ooo sounds so shiny

could be easily made into a character slot.

 

[Foxtorres]

could be easily made into a character slot.

3 chars from mother? MMmmmmm~

 

[FlatSoda]

3 chars from mother? MMmmmmm~

Anythings possible, the main protagonists and antagonists from the Kirby series made it.

 

[tstumo]

im hoping that's what they do for Ness. instead of getting rid of him completely they should make him a costume change for Lucas. at least do him justice by changing the name too. the moves dont matter too much. they should do that for any character whos similar and wont be playable.

 

[FlatSoda]

im hoping that's what they do for Ness. instead of getting rid of him completely they should make him a costume change for Lucas. at least do him justice by changing the name too. the moves dont matter too much. they should do that for any character whos similar and wont be playable.

Peach had a Daisy costume.
Still no name change though, it could be implemented into brawl before it's released.
But who's gonna pay attention to some kid with this idea. :/

 

[Rhubarbo]

Guys, translate the Dojo from the other languages. Nate Bhildorf did a poor job at disconfirming Ness. The French version makes it pretty clear Ness is cut.

 

[FlatSoda]

Guys, translate the Dojo from the other languages. Nate Bhildorf did a poor job at disconfirming Ness. The French version makes it pretty clear Ness is cut.

If the french version says this, and the other languages say that.
which is true?

Bad argument.

 

[Foxtorres]

does sakuari even check smash boards? I havnt asked/ran into this question...

 

[tstumo]

yeah i know right. that's Nintendo for ya :/
anyway yeah then i guess Ness is really screwed as being even somewhat playble in brawl. if they arent going to change the name then he shouldnt be a costume swap either. it really makes no sense to me. for them give someone the look of the charater and not even change the name is a tease to me. and a waste of time. poor Ness and the Ness fans i say.

 

[FlatSoda]

Well, if Ness was rushed into Melee, Why not rush him in for the fans?
More characters, more fans, more money for nintendo. >_>;

I just hope to see more of Lucas' in the upcoming updates.
or maybe even Ness tomorrow.

 

[camzaman]

I believe all the sites say something different, if I could have truly literal translations, I'd post them up, but Google Translator doesn't cut it. :/

I'm fluent in French, and the French site doesn't have the exclusive phrase "until now" or anything. Here's my best translation of the French one:

You know Ness since his appearance in the Smash Bros. series.
You'll therefore quickly adopt Lucas, who resembles him much.
They belong to the same family of PK characters.

However, they don't at all have the same style of physical combat.
What I mean is, they don't use the same standard moves....etc...

 

[Drclaw411]

usually after a disapointing update there is a good one...didnt they confirm a character or mode or something after Lynn was deconfirmed?

 

[Wolffe]

I'm fluent in French, and the French site doesn't have the exclusive phrase "until now" or anything. Here's my best translation of the French one:

You know Ness since his appearance in the Smash Bros. series.
You'll therefore quickly adopt Lucas, who resembles him much.
They belong to the same family of PK characters.

However, they don't at all have the same style of physical combat.
What I mean is, they don't use the same standard moves....etc...

I have

"You've known Ness since his first appearances in the SSB Series. You will quickly adopt Lucas. They both belong in the same PK characters family.

But they totally don't have the same physical attacks. What I mean: their standard attacks are different"

so yeah, nice

 

[SirPenguin]

Can a mod close this topic like the others? It's pretty obvious Lucas replaced Ness, the translations done by professionals > Babelfish and people taking highschool foreign language courses, and Sakurai finally confirmed what he's wanted to do since Melee.

All this topic will do is fuel flames and a giant posts that can be summed up with, "NO U". I say nip it in the bud.

 

[Wolffe]

Can a mod close this topic like the others? It's pretty obvious Lucas replaced Ness, the translations done by professionals > Babelfish and people taking highschool foreign language courses, and Sakurai finally confirmed what he's wanted to do since Melee.

All this topic will do is fuel flames and a giant posts that can be summed up with, "NO U". I say nip it in the bud.

Wow, who ordered a large 'condescending' with a sidedish of 'self-importance'?

 

[Rhubarbo]

Alright Flat Soda, I can see some of your arguments being pretty resonable. However, that argument with character similarities is pretty off. The Giga Bowser and Landmaster comparison is nothing short of lame. Mario and Samus' FSes are really different, plus, ZSS.
After re-reading the update, I realized something. It says, "There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar." And, pretty much supports Ness. If you check the other Dojo translations, it doesn't support Ness as much. Oh how fitting it would be in Ness was updated tomorrow.

 

[masterbraz]

Can a mod close this topic like the others? It's pretty obvious Lucas replaced Ness, the translations done by professionals > Babelfish and people taking highschool foreign language courses, and Sakurai finally confirmed what he's wanted to do since Melee.

All this topic will do is fuel flames and a giant posts that can be summed up with, "NO U". I say nip it in the bud.

I can you be so sure of yourself? Up until now can include now. There's as much evidence to support him as to disprove him. It can go either way. If Ness wasn't in, why would Lucas need all these new moves?

 

[Wolffe]

Oh how fitting it would be in Ness was updated tomorrow.

I was hoping so, just to wipe a smirk off all the arrogant nay-sayers who think their conclusions drawn from two words in a translation is solid proof!

 

[Bajef8]

Okay, let's get it started here.
Though, there's plenty of threads about this, I hope to make this one stand out and have plenty of members come to discuss, argue reasonably, and share their thoughts about this.

As I know well as anyone else, if anyone wants Ness to return, it's really not anyones decision for that. Lucas has seemed to make it to brawl this time but where does that leave ness? Your answer: Not our decision. Could this decision have been made already? Most likely. What's the decision? We won't know until we see actual confirmation of Ness.

Let's see, here's just some background information of what I already know.
I don't know much about Ness or Lucas, I'm just going to speculate as anyone else would, and share ideas. I haven't really played any earthbound game past 10 minutes. Sorry, Earthbound Fanboys. But just hear me out.

Mods, If necessary, move to Character discussion. I urge to not close this thread.
On to Lucas.

Lucas!

As seen on the update at the Smash Bros. Dojo on 11/8/07, Lucas' Special Moves.
It seems to me, and I'm pretty sure to most people who've played any smash game that Lucas has pretty much the majority of what Ness had. We see the hexagons, and several PK attacks.

There’s a character named Ness who has appeared in the Smash Bros. series up until now, and Lucas is very similar. They are from the same family of PK users.

But Lucas’s physical combat style is quite different. By which I mean, he does not have the same standard moves.​

What does this necessarily mean? Up until now? Beg to differ everyone, but I don't see this as an de-confirmation. Up until now can also mean that this may be the last smash? Can be HIS last smash? Can be anything? Yeah, pretty much. I'd still like to share thoughts anyway. Lucas has a different set of standard attacks, well maybe not entirely. But still, pretty darn close.

Where can we continue next? Ah, the images from the dojo.

This back air seems to be like a combination of Ness' neutral air and back air. To me, just the animations of Ness' Nair and probably everything else Bair, obv.​

PK Fire! This one is supposedly slightly different. Kind of like Mario's fireball and Luigi's Fireball comparison in Melee, yes? One moves in a different path and the other is completely horizontal. Not to say clones are back, but definitely characters are similar in brawl. But I'll get into that later.​

PK Freeze! Looks a lot like PK Flash, but still, obviously different. Nothing else to say here.​

PK Thundah!~ Not really much to say here, we can't tell how different it is until we actually play the game. Still, it looks mighty close to Melee's. At least the visual, we do know by GimpyFish's stickied thread that Brawl is definitely different than Melee.​

PSI Magnet, Looks exactly the same. Also, pretty much the description on the Dojo said it all.​

'Kay, what now? My opinions and arguements. From what I feel stronger to weaker.

Clones, Clones, Clones. They were in Melee, but as so far seen, not really in brawl. This time around, in my opinion, similar characters are here. But the way I look at them, the characters that share similarities are far apart.
Ike & Kirby.
Pikachu & Sonic.
Link & Ike.
Fox & Bowser.
Mario & Samus.
And so on.

You're probably going to think I'm crazy, but there's more to come. Let's take Ike and Kirby for example. If you're thinkin' like me, then you know what I'm about to say. Up Special! They're practically the same, just the animation is different.

Pikachu and Sonic! Don't know what I'm going to say here? Their Final Smashes. They both turn into a ball of AWESOME and fly around screen destroyin' everything in it's path. Don't get me wrong, they're different. If i'm correct, according to Gimpy's Sticky, Pikachu is harder to control, and shoots out uh..volts? Yeah, you get the Idea. For more information visit his sticky.

Link & Ike, Final smashes again this time. Both seem to lunge at an opponent, and slash the crap out of them. Link's seems more horizontal and Ike's seems more vertical. For more information, Gimpy's sticky.

Fox & Bowser, Again, Final smashes. This is probably one of the less similar ones. They both transform, and destroy everything in it's path. Fox and his Landmaster Tank, and bowser into GigaBowser. They're completely different, but the point is, TRANSFORMATION.

Mario & Samus, Final Smashes again. Sorry if this is just repetitive, but the point is, characters can be similar. Mario unleashes a wave of fire, samus unleashes her zero laser beam thing, or something. Both are horizontal and yeah, if you've seen, you get the point.

Remember, what was just said above doesn't have anything really about Ness or Lucas, but more or less to show that characters can be similar. Clones look like they're out, but Seriously? Mario and Luigi, Fox and Falco. Don't want to say anything but I feel like, "What's one without the other?" Brawl seems to avoid as much as they can from cloning. Perhaps from Lucas' Specials, Ness' will be different if he were to return? Just imagine his moveset. His PK fire could be similar to Zelda's Din's Fire. That is, if it were to return. His PK Flash can have an electricity type stun as Lucas' has a freeze effect to his PK Freeze or whatever. Not saying anything definite, but Come on. We have to look at the good and bad. Now if Ness were not to return, Oh well? I'm sure people would be hurt if he weren't to return, but what if he did and was completely nerfed to the extreme? Would one feel more angered that they made him not to their expectations? People, just think, please.

A weaker argument, with all this saying about Ness in Lucas' updates, it could be either two things. A tease to just toy with our minds, or hints that he's not coming back. The whole "Up until now" doesn't cut it for me. Honestly if he does return it wouldn't phase me. Same for if he doesn't return. I just felt like typing this up to share thoughts.

An even weaker argument, Lucas ends in S, so does Ness. Yes ends in S and rhymes with Ness. Sorry, just trying to be funny.

Now, for the questions I have for the Members.

What do you think about Ness, and his absence in Brawl so far?

If you are a Ness main, will you stick to Lucas if Ness were not to return?

What do you think about character clones, and similarities? Possible for ness, and being his last chance in Smash?

Do you have any points you'd like me to post up above?

Do you believe in what I said about Mario & Luigi, and Fox & Falco? What's one without the other?​

Please, I urge people to express anything they'd like to say.

zelda's din fire move is in just to let you know. it's been shown on pics and videos on the dojo. i think that this update was practically a de-conformation. i mean come one the moves are the exact same. i think ness and lucas could have the mario, luigi relationship like in melee, but it isn't to likely in my opinion. all the moves look the same as ness's with improvements and the exception of PK freeze freezing people instaed of blowing them up. i think you're just grasping at anything to keep the realization that ness is probably gone. i mean you have some valid points, but i'm probably 70% sure he is out and 30% he could still be in.

 

[SirPenguin]

Wow, who ordered a large 'condescending' with a sidedish of 'self-importance'?

I was unaware it was condescending to report the facts. Huh. I'll keep that in mind,

Youko has had the foresight to close a couple of threads already for this very reason. I was hoping he'd make the rounds over here.

And you need to stop running with the poorly thought out "ONLY ONE TRANSLATION OMFG" idea. Every translation either contains the same ambiguity as the English, or downright confirms Ness is out, such as the French with them saying we'll quickly adopt Lucas, meaning Ness is out, but it's not that big of a deal because Lucas is his replacement.

At the end of the day, if the Japanese translation says "up until" (which is does), then it doesn't matter what the other translations say.

You're wrong, Ness is out, end of story. I've really just wanted to bite my tongue this entire time and hope people smarten up themselves, but seeing people cycle through the 5 stages is getting a bit frustrating. Just hurry up and hit "Acceptance", please.

 

[Conker1]

The same guy who translates the Dojo to English is also translating Brawl to English. I'm sure he knows the full roster and whether Ness was cut.

 

[camzaman]

As someone who played Ness more than any other character in Melee, I have this to say, which I think is true for all but the most extreme fanboys:

LUCAS rocks and is cool, and if he replaces NESS that's fine.

HOWEVER,

I WANT A CHARACTER WITH A FREAKIN' COOL HOME RUN BAT AND YO-YO!

- Tell me if my point isn't true?

 

[masterbraz]

Its not a question of translation- although there have been spelling errors before. However look at wordchoice and the fact lucas has new moveset. Up until now was used for mario's move updates for the spin attack. And the spin attack is still in! Now if Sakurai got rid of a fan favorite, i doubt he would write him off through a hint that can taken many different ways. IM NOT SAYING NESS IS IN, however he still does have a chance, and anyone who thinks he is def in or out needs to look at all facts and situations.

 

[Wolffe]

I was unaware it was condescending to report the facts. Huh. I'll keep that in mind,

Youko has had the foresight to close a couple of threads already for this very reason. I was hoping he'd make the rounds over here.

And you need to stop running with the poorly thought out "ONLY ONE TRANSLATION OMFG" idea. Every translation either contains the same ambiguity as the English, or downright confirms Ness is out, such as the French with them saying we'll quickly adopt Lucas, meaning Ness is out, but it's not that big of a deal because Lucas is his replacement.

At the end of the day, if the Japanese translation says "up until" (which is does), then it doesn't matter what the other translations say.

You're wrong, Ness is out, end of story. I've really just wanted to bite my tongue this entire time and hope people smarten up themselves, but seeing people cycle through the 5 stages is getting a bit frustrating. Just hurry up and hit "Acceptance", please.

Well it was harsh of me to say that, but you've been slating mine and others' (who are natives in those languages) translation abilities on numerous occassions now, so I wasn't particularly warm to your 'high school language' comment.

Anyway, yes, it doesn't confirm that he's in it, but my point was that the clear intention of their update was merely to state the comparison between Ness' and Lucas' moves, not actually hinting that Ness was gone. Yes, there is still ambiguity, but less so than with the rather loaded phrase 'until now'.

The Japanese says literally 'until now's smash brothers series', meaning 'so far', in an inclusive but leadless way, not the rather final 'up until now' that the poor english translation had. It's probably not the translator's fault; they don't know the fate of the character they're trying to paraphrase for is so important in those two words. I'm completely positive that this was not a hint towards Ness' role in the game. Whether he's in or out other than that is irrelevant to me!