Burnsy
Smash Lord
Yes. But as long as your finger muscles can handle it springless hard press is the same thing.
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Lucas General Discussion
- Thread starter Ishiey
- Start date
BryE
Smash Journeyman
Played a bit more Project M today with one of my friends.
I started messing around with SH PKF > Magnet Glide off of platforms from Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 1 & 2 and etc. I'm wondering if it's possible to utilize this for offensive purposes since you're essentially a flying hitbox that's traveling towards your enemy. And if you turn around your Magnet Glide by holding diagonal down + right/left (If you're using SH PKF while moving right, hold diagonal down + left to glide towards the right while facing the opposite direction.) That way, when you release Magnet, the opponent while go in the same direction that you're going in. As well as this, you could possibly follow up with something else.
I'm not sure, this is just me making guesses and assumptions.
I started messing around with SH PKF > Magnet Glide off of platforms from Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 1 & 2 and etc. I'm wondering if it's possible to utilize this for offensive purposes since you're essentially a flying hitbox that's traveling towards your enemy. And if you turn around your Magnet Glide by holding diagonal down + right/left (If you're using SH PKF while moving right, hold diagonal down + left to glide towards the right while facing the opposite direction.) That way, when you release Magnet, the opponent while go in the same direction that you're going in. As well as this, you could possibly follow up with something else.
I'm not sure, this is just me making guesses and assumptions.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
It's pretty telegraphed, but so is Falcon Punch so I guess anything is possible. I suppose short hopped of a platform is a bit faster and less telegraphed than a full hop, the way I usually use it.
Rather than using the magnet release itself, I've had much better success in serious matches using it to chase opponents offstage and DJC the magnet into an aerial. Fair if they are close enough to the boundaries for it to kill, otherwise dair. It also can be just a decent way to mix up your movement around the stage, I like using it to get away from opponents with respawn invincibility.
On a side note, we really need some official names for some of these Lucas techniques. What you are referring to I've always seen called "Magnet Pull" or "Magnet Slide" since that's what it was called in Brawl tutorials. I've been calling an approaching/retreating sh magnet a "Magnet Glide" for a few weeks because I feel the technique deserves a unique name when you are using it to set up DJC/airdodge mix ups, since simply saying SH magnet kind of implies that you are just short hopping and trying to hit them with the magnet. Of course we can all decide on something a bit less ambiguous for either, just the name I liked calling it.
Rather than using the magnet release itself, I've had much better success in serious matches using it to chase opponents offstage and DJC the magnet into an aerial. Fair if they are close enough to the boundaries for it to kill, otherwise dair. It also can be just a decent way to mix up your movement around the stage, I like using it to get away from opponents with respawn invincibility.
On a side note, we really need some official names for some of these Lucas techniques. What you are referring to I've always seen called "Magnet Pull" or "Magnet Slide" since that's what it was called in Brawl tutorials. I've been calling an approaching/retreating sh magnet a "Magnet Glide" for a few weeks because I feel the technique deserves a unique name when you are using it to set up DJC/airdodge mix ups, since simply saying SH magnet kind of implies that you are just short hopping and trying to hit them with the magnet. Of course we can all decide on something a bit less ambiguous for either, just the name I liked calling it.
BryE
Smash Journeyman
We could just call it Magnet Pull. It functions similar to Brawl's magnet pull so I see no reason to call it as such.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I suppose, although I've always preferred techniques to have names that actually describe what is occurring to some extent. There's not really any "pulling" going on. For example, I like the fact that many in P:M community have taken the Brawl mechanic once known as "wavebouncing" and now refer to it as "reverse b-reverse", which makes a lot more sense. I dont really see any problem in renaming a Brawl AT with a silly name if we can use something better.
Just popping in to say, until you're Touch-of-Deathing every character in the game, there is work to do.
Nobody should live after being hit by Lucas. He has what's necessary to do this, and the only reason it might not be the norm in knowledge, is due to still needing to develop.
Don't under-optimize ANYTHING.
Nobody should live after being hit by Lucas. He has what's necessary to do this, and the only reason it might not be the norm in knowledge, is due to still needing to develop.
Don't under-optimize ANYTHING.
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
Any decent Lucas players out there? Like somebody who won a tournament or something? I guess since just a few people are talking about Lucas people don´t know about his power. He seems to be underrated as ****.
Oracle
Smash Master
*clears throat*...
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
So what´s that supposed to mean?
Vashimus
Smash Master
Well Burnsy doesn't like to toot his own horn, so I will.
Toot toot.
Toot toot.
Oracle
Smash Master
i'm the only lucas with tournament results (iirc) so that makes me the best i guess. definitely not the most technical though
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Thanks for the toots, Vashimus.
I like to think of myself as good with Lucas specifically, but I'm still a relatively new player and therefore somewhat lacking in overall experience. That said, I am working very hard, putting in an hour or two average per day with not including weekend binges, and the result is that I seem to be improving rather quickly.
I place pretty well at my locals considering how much time I've spent with smash in general. We have quite a few well-known players here in AZ that have been dominating for years that make it somewhat difficult to place highly as a newcomer. Regardless, I intend to have tournament results to back up my claims soon.
Oracle, I thought you more or less dropped Lucas to focus on GnW and ROB?
In other Lucas related news, djc uair>regrab is my new best friend in the middle of low-mid percents combos. Seems to work on a large portion of the cast. Keep in mind that for this and for chain grabs, that dash grab has twice the active frames of standing grab and therefore makes timing the regrab a little easier, although slightly riskier.
I like to think of myself as good with Lucas specifically, but I'm still a relatively new player and therefore somewhat lacking in overall experience. That said, I am working very hard, putting in an hour or two average per day with not including weekend binges, and the result is that I seem to be improving rather quickly.
I place pretty well at my locals considering how much time I've spent with smash in general. We have quite a few well-known players here in AZ that have been dominating for years that make it somewhat difficult to place highly as a newcomer. Regardless, I intend to have tournament results to back up my claims soon.
Oracle, I thought you more or less dropped Lucas to focus on GnW and ROB?
In other Lucas related news, djc uair>regrab is my new best friend in the middle of low-mid percents combos. Seems to work on a large portion of the cast. Keep in mind that for this and for chain grabs, that dash grab has twice the active frames of standing grab and therefore makes timing the regrab a little easier, although slightly riskier.
ZetTroxX
Smash Journeyman
Though I love Lucas` Up-Throw I think it´s a bit too powerful. You can kill lots of chars on most stages at around 100%...Or did everybody I played just suck at DI?
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
when you mentioned "Best Lucas?" and I said Naerok, I'm not sure if you ever looked him up so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IAYdItVgo3E#t=361s
Now a lot of Lucas players bring a bunch of their unique potential and tricks to the game like Calabrel and Burnsey: but Naerok was SO ahead of his time in terms of SLICK movement which you can't see in the current 2.5 Lucas (RIP real Lucas) and even a great DJC game for how early this was. He also DJCs off platforms (including with Nair) which is super good but people to this day still don't use.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IAYdItVgo3E#t=361s
Now a lot of Lucas players bring a bunch of their unique potential and tricks to the game like Calabrel and Burnsey: but Naerok was SO ahead of his time in terms of SLICK movement which you can't see in the current 2.5 Lucas (RIP real Lucas) and even a great DJC game for how early this was. He also DJCs off platforms (including with Nair) which is super good but people to this day still don't use.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Their DI sucks. It takes more than that.
Dron
Smash Apprentice
got 3rd in a local today going all Lucas (up from 6th out of 8 at my first tournament and 7th out of 12 at the last one), none of the sets got recorded though 
, they were really really good imo
it's amazing how people react to a Lucas for the first time, they made me feel like I was Wizzy's Sonic or Armada's Pit Embarrass
I do have a question though (somewhat of a general question in addition to a Lucas question) - how should I deal with Falco? can't ice him because lasers are way more convenient, and I also have no clue how to get out of his dair shine combos (I'd imagine just holding left or right while he's doing it and teching any hits possible would be good, but I don't know much about that stuff so I thought I'd ask)
, they were really really good imoit's amazing how people react to a Lucas for the first time, they made me feel like I was Wizzy's Sonic or Armada's Pit Embarrass
I do have a question though (somewhat of a general question in addition to a Lucas question) - how should I deal with Falco? can't ice him because lasers are way more convenient, and I also have no clue how to get out of his dair shine combos (I'd imagine just holding left or right while he's doing it and teching any hits possible would be good, but I don't know much about that stuff so I thought I'd ask)
Burnsy
Smash Lord
This advice is mostly for Falco, but some of it applies to Fox as well:
Approaching with sh down-b is good because it has a good chance of eating his lasers, while giving you a plethora of offensive options to choose from depending on what he is doing. Know your JC options out of aerial down-b.
Jab is a nice anti-approach to his nair/dair, I usually just do jab 1 then down-b immediately after that. If it hits, then great, and you really need to do your best to keep the combo going (not dropping combos is critical to winning the MU). If they are able to shield the jab and down-b, wavedash away to safety. (Note: I think sometimes jab1>jab2>immediate jc grab can sometimes be difficult to escape, even for spacies. can't remember if I use this on them or not though. Worth testing.)
U-tilt has similar good anti-approach characteristics and is obviously very rewarding on hit. The spacies really have the ability to have their way with you if you can't create offensive pressure, so even if raw u-tilting seems risky, I think it is a good thing to throw out and pray it hits because if you can't create openings you're going to get ***** either way.
Dash attack can be amazing if you think there's a good chance they are going to get hit.
Grabs are really good on them, Uthrow at low percents leads into combos and bad di on dthrow can lead to regrabs. Good DI on dthrow can lead into dash attack. Keep in mind that good dthrow DI is bad bthrow DI. If they are in the 115+ percents and you notice that they have been DIing dthrow well, bthrow could possible kill or at least set up for an easy edgeguard/gimp.
If you are really pro with PKT1, you can use the tail to carry them down to the bottom when they get offstage.
If you are getting gimped off of your tether a lot, please please please please please take the time to learn my non-reel-in tether airdodge abuse trick to sweetspot the ledge safely without reeling in and exposing your cranium to dairs, and airdodging through Fox shine spikes.
If I think of anymore pointers I'll amend my post. If you tell me more specific problems you are having I may have other solutions that solve what you actually want to know. Fox+Falco can be tough because they can really out-do Lucas in terms of pressure, and they fall so fast that his typical combos become much more strict in timing until they get near the 40-50 percents. They seem to be quite doable, however. Just very different as far as how to approach the MU overall.
Approaching with sh down-b is good because it has a good chance of eating his lasers, while giving you a plethora of offensive options to choose from depending on what he is doing. Know your JC options out of aerial down-b.
Jab is a nice anti-approach to his nair/dair, I usually just do jab 1 then down-b immediately after that. If it hits, then great, and you really need to do your best to keep the combo going (not dropping combos is critical to winning the MU). If they are able to shield the jab and down-b, wavedash away to safety. (Note: I think sometimes jab1>jab2>immediate jc grab can sometimes be difficult to escape, even for spacies. can't remember if I use this on them or not though. Worth testing.)
U-tilt has similar good anti-approach characteristics and is obviously very rewarding on hit. The spacies really have the ability to have their way with you if you can't create offensive pressure, so even if raw u-tilting seems risky, I think it is a good thing to throw out and pray it hits because if you can't create openings you're going to get ***** either way.
Dash attack can be amazing if you think there's a good chance they are going to get hit.
Grabs are really good on them, Uthrow at low percents leads into combos and bad di on dthrow can lead to regrabs. Good DI on dthrow can lead into dash attack. Keep in mind that good dthrow DI is bad bthrow DI. If they are in the 115+ percents and you notice that they have been DIing dthrow well, bthrow could possible kill or at least set up for an easy edgeguard/gimp.
If you are really pro with PKT1, you can use the tail to carry them down to the bottom when they get offstage.
If you are getting gimped off of your tether a lot, please please please please please take the time to learn my non-reel-in tether airdodge abuse trick to sweetspot the ledge safely without reeling in and exposing your cranium to dairs, and airdodging through Fox shine spikes.
If I think of anymore pointers I'll amend my post. If you tell me more specific problems you are having I may have other solutions that solve what you actually want to know. Fox+Falco can be tough because they can really out-do Lucas in terms of pressure, and they fall so fast that his typical combos become much more strict in timing until they get near the 40-50 percents. They seem to be quite doable, however. Just very different as far as how to approach the MU overall.
Dron
Smash Apprentice
I agree that making most of the combos is important, I honestly think that 0 to deaths on spacies with Lucas could potentially be a regular thing with all the stuff he has going for him
I think I even got a chain of 4 or 5 magnets in a row on him by short hop magneting, wavedashing back, shorthop magneting in the opposite direction, wavedashing back, etc. - that's becoming one of my new favorites against people who don't expect it, and plus it's super super flashy
also SH magnet -> wavedash back -> nair -> regrab either forwards or backwards depending on which side of you they DI is something I tend to use a lot against people that don't abuse crouch cancelling
I didn't try short hop magnet against Falco too much though since I figured a laser absorb would put enough lag on me for him to punish, but I guess as long as you're far away enough it shouldn't be a problem
speaking of absorbing with magnet, can Lucas still do that technique in Brawl where he can instantly roll out of magnet after he absorbs something? I think I tried it before and it didn't work, but I don't really remember - that'd be really cool since it's the only option he has to get out of that situation
also I'll check out your tether advice again, I never really looked into it before but it does sound like it'll help
I think I even got a chain of 4 or 5 magnets in a row on him by short hop magneting, wavedashing back, shorthop magneting in the opposite direction, wavedashing back, etc. - that's becoming one of my new favorites against people who don't expect it, and plus it's super super flashy
also SH magnet -> wavedash back -> nair -> regrab either forwards or backwards depending on which side of you they DI is something I tend to use a lot against people that don't abuse crouch cancelling
I didn't try short hop magnet against Falco too much though since I figured a laser absorb would put enough lag on me for him to punish, but I guess as long as you're far away enough it shouldn't be a problem
speaking of absorbing with magnet, can Lucas still do that technique in Brawl where he can instantly roll out of magnet after he absorbs something? I think I tried it before and it didn't work, but I don't really remember - that'd be really cool since it's the only option he has to get out of that situation
also I'll check out your tether advice again, I never really looked into it before but it does sound like it'll help
Burnsy
Smash Lord
The tether tricks work well enough to avoid shine spikes, Marth dtilts, forced ledgejumps from edge hogging, and much more. That alone should be enough to make people want to learn it, but I guess some may need to see to believe. If I can make a video for it perhaps I'll give the technique its own thread. Its certainly important enough to warrant it. Its not just a silly but useless AT, I believe it is the future of the Lucas recovery metagame, assuming tethers stay as they are.
I'd actually advise approaching sh magnet from both far and close on a laser happy opponent. Its true that there is a lag period, but if they fire a laser at close range you will phase right through it and now the magnet is on them and providing both pressure and options. To my knowledge, there's is literally nothing you can do during the lag period of absorbing. I found this out when going up against my friends trolly charizard: I sh magneted at him and he gave me flamethrower at close range and just kept the flames coming. I mashed everything I could but until they released I was completely stuck.
I'd actually advise approaching sh magnet from both far and close on a laser happy opponent. Its true that there is a lag period, but if they fire a laser at close range you will phase right through it and now the magnet is on them and providing both pressure and options. To my knowledge, there's is literally nothing you can do during the lag period of absorbing. I found this out when going up against my friends trolly charizard: I sh magneted at him and he gave me flamethrower at close range and just kept the flames coming. I mashed everything I could but until they released I was completely stuck.
Oracle
Smash Master
around 50% you can get dash attacks into dash attacks into smashes for the kill. As far as neutral game goes, i try to airdodge through the lasers and snake him out of his short hop. its a tough matchup
bryu_1337
Smash Journeyman
Why are you airdodging through lasers? that opens you up to so many things like a shine, a grab, another laser, a dair, etc. I either try to djc a pk freeze under a laser or just use psi magnet to absorb it, which can be tricky with the timing, but it works. And it can lead to a hit if you're close enough. on a stage with platforms I try to stay on those to avoid lasers if the falco is really laser heavy. since lucas's fair and his dash attack have decent range, approaching with a wave dash while sheilding lasers and using one of those out of sheild can do the trick. Personally, I feel like falco is one of lucas's harder matchups. in my limited experience with it, spacing it really key if you're not good at power shielding, which i am not. getting a grab can make or break the game for lucas since falco is so good at comboing him, but can be easily combo'd by lucas as well.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
Well the snake cancels the air dodge
Oracle
Smash Master
what spider mad said
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Mad, you still in need of M 1 and M 2.0?
SmashGuy
Smash Journeyman
What are those? What do these mean?: DJC AC WD?
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Double Jump Cancel, dunno, Wavedash.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,563
ac should mean auto-cancel.
SmashGuy
Smash Journeyman
Why would you DJC? Why not just SH?
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Because it is faster, and you won't get the auto cancel if you only short hop. You only SH a bair when you think you are going to be hitting someone with it.
With that said, we've already discussed that the autocancel on djc PKF is probably more useful since it can turn you around, and it's more forgiving than Bair if you screw up. The only time I see myself using it is for a faster way to land on platforms. Another potential use could be autocancel OoS into dash away or a ground move, but the 9 frame minimum it takes to do this (4 pre jump, 1 for djc, 4 for autocancel lag) makes it seem too slow to be viable as an OoS option.
With that said, we've already discussed that the autocancel on djc PKF is probably more useful since it can turn you around, and it's more forgiving than Bair if you screw up. The only time I see myself using it is for a faster way to land on platforms. Another potential use could be autocancel OoS into dash away or a ground move, but the 9 frame minimum it takes to do this (4 pre jump, 1 for djc, 4 for autocancel lag) makes it seem too slow to be viable as an OoS option.
SmashGuy
Smash Journeyman
Huh. So you just press (NGCC) tap Y X2 quick then press either way side-B? And it helps because the frames are shorter than just SH?
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Of course it's faster. I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
If we are still talking about the autocancel tech here, djc is really the only way to make it work. A shorthop will make you go too high, you only get the autocancel if side-b's ice ball doesn't come out. If you were to SH and throw your side-b late so you get the AC, it would be no faster than doing a empty shorthop.
I feel like what you are meaning to ask about is whether or not a djc pk freeze (when you actually let the ice come out, not when you autocancel) is faster than a SH pk freeze. If this is the case, the answer is yes, because if you do it right you can both start the freeze at a lower height and land earlier after throwing, both of these things make it slightly faster and allow better follow ups.
If we are still talking about the autocancel tech here, djc is really the only way to make it work. A shorthop will make you go too high, you only get the autocancel if side-b's ice ball doesn't come out. If you were to SH and throw your side-b late so you get the AC, it would be no faster than doing a empty shorthop.
I feel like what you are meaning to ask about is whether or not a djc pk freeze (when you actually let the ice come out, not when you autocancel) is faster than a SH pk freeze. If this is the case, the answer is yes, because if you do it right you can both start the freeze at a lower height and land earlier after throwing, both of these things make it slightly faster and allow better follow ups.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
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Nope, I digged through the unorganized apocalypse that is my back up hard drive and found both: thanks though.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
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Actually do you have the Homebrew version of 1.0? The hackless of it wasn't working for me often
Dron
Smash Apprentice
so apparently Lucas' bair/dair are getting reverted back to the Brawl versions in 2.6, not sure how I feel about that (it's supposedly an overall buff though)
patiently awaiting 2.6 at this point
patiently awaiting 2.6 at this point
Never touched brawl lucas. What was his brawl versions, and do they justify losing the combo beginners and enders you're getting from them now?
Oracle
Smash Master
Trust me its sick. Way more useful than his current moves
All the frame data I'm looking at right now is mostly giving me numbers and not much else. But from what I'm seeing:
Sure, I'm down.
Dron
Smash Apprentice
Brawl dair was a multihit move similar to Snake's dair and Brawl bair was a backwards flipkick spike
so I guess we'll keep a meteor (probably harder to set up/less usage onstage but more rewarding as a meteor) and lose a kill move for a spacing tool
so maybe a little more onstage presence, a stronger meteor and a slightly harder time killing? that's my guess anyways
edit:
so I guess we'll keep a meteor (probably harder to set up/less usage onstage but more rewarding as a meteor) and lose a kill move for a spacing tool
so maybe a little more onstage presence, a stronger meteor and a slightly harder time killing? that's my guess anyways
edit:
I'll take your/others' word for it, I definitely trust the PMBR