Lucas General Discussion

[Burnsy]

Metroid was asking about true combos into DACUS in the general Social Thread and it prompted me to write this. I figured I should share it here with you guys as well. Since then, I have discovered that nairing them into nair's landing hitboxes can also set up a DACUS, and that the dash attack setup seems really unreliable, it may require very specific characters and DI.

I think I remember 1 w1inged @ngel telling me once that perfect d-throw DI (where they go too far for any follow-ups) can lead into DACUS as well.

I'm not even sure what combos into Lucas' DACUS and I haven't tried doing so, but I use it for tech chasing when appropriate.

Lucas has a few ways of comboing into his DACUS at killing percents, and is able to land them on reaction:

Double jump canceled f-air (sweetspot at lower percents and sourspot at higher)
Dash attack (very situational, they also need to DI into range, but there's time to react to it)
And, probably most reliable would be PK Magnet -> wavedash back -> turn around DACUS ($$$)
Edit: as noted below, z-air also works

I'll be willing to bet that on certain characters and percents, these could true combo, especially for PK Magnet, which seems to work well on everyone. At the very least, it is a worthy follow-up in these situations, as counter attacking through or jumping out of usmash's disjointed range will not be a very easy thing to do.

When I played against Ish's Lucas in 2.1, short-hopped PK Freeze linked into DACUS, but I'm not sure if it's a true combo nor if it still works in 2.5.

This does work in 2.5. Double jump cancelled PK freeze would probably be better, since he would be able to act sooner than from a SH PK Freeze, I think you meant this instead. I'm not even sure if it works with SH PKF, since I rarely use it on the ground. At the very least, linking into this off a hit confirmed freeze is possible, I use it a lot.

If you did the DACUS as soon as possible (before the freeze even reaches them) it would definitely be a true combo, and probably a smart idea to utilize for long range punishes, but not in situations where you are worried that they might shield it.

When thinking about ways that I've combo'd into DACUS with Lucas, his z-air also comes to mind. I don't think I've actually done this one yet, but I think it should be possible. A high percent z-air leaves him enough time to combo into u-smash, so if he gets one and they DI away I think it could work.

Edit: Just tested, Z-air -> DACUS should definitely link at high percents on most characters. Much more reliable than dash attack. I'll test it on some human players soon.

 

[Spiffykins]

i could be wrong about it, but the rob side b thing works off of the same principal so idk. And when haggar says stun lock im assuming he means multiple dtilts, which doesn't really work

what a waste of a 2000th post

Lucas' dtilt meteors on grounded opponents. That's why it "works", and it's also why it sends them practically nowhere even at high percents. If they can't SDI out, then they deserve to get dtilted over and over again, lol.

 

[Nausicaa]

Top 5? Pfffft...

Lucas is likely the best character in the game.

Keep working at it, but work with awareness primarily. Make sure you understand what that means and apply it to your game. It's of utmost importance.

Otherwise, that DD game... so good.

 

[Ishiey]

Dthrow combos into DACUS if they DI all the way behind you. It gets a bit tough when they find the sweetspot for DI though (too close for DACUS, too far for dash usmash).

 

[Burnsy]

Am I wrong in assuming that at that in between point a RAR bair or fair might work?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How do you guys use lucas' downb? I was originally using it like a shine; a quick move to prevent CC or shield options that also combos. But I realized quickly that it is not an immediate move and that it is still quite susceptible to CC. Instead i've been using jab (frame 2) to cover that role and havent really found a good place for downb.

I've heard whispers that lucas will be getting some buffs; do you think his downb should be one of them?

I really like this character, but he has a very hard time killing. Most of his combo starting moves keep the opponent in prime position in front of you, but he really lacks moves to capitalize. Fair and uair (practically) never KO and dair is easily meteored. Bair is his best aerial KO move but it is ridiculously small, not to mention the startup time on it. I also wish his fsmash was bigger; currently I think dsmash and usmash are strictly better than fsmash.

 

[Nausicaa]

You can just use Down-B for what it is. A safe ranged and quick attack that can lead into things while remaining mobile. There's not much more to it then that, and I really have no idea how you could possibly buff that thing other than increasing range on it or something. Give that to any character and it's of value, use it simply for what it appears to be on the surface level, the finer details of it, like combos from it or whatever, don't really matter. :/

Buffing Lucas is nuts. lol

I can definitely understand why you might find it difficult to get kills, but it shouldn't be. If you care to post a video, I'll try helping, but for the most part it seems like it's pretty surface level stuff too. He has a good grab, can tech-chase with a reliable Fsmash (quick and hits hard, with a great WD and DD game, why does Fsmash need more range with this speed?), and a Bair (if you find this tricky then don't bother with it too much right now, it really just takes a critical mass of experimenting to get the feel for it)

Edit: Along with the easily described stuff, he shouldn't have too much trouble in the transition game in terms of positioning opponents with his combos. Simple things, like U-Throw > FH-Nair at mid %, lead to beneficial positional advantages, and it's easy to maintain that progress/pressure if you don't over-commit to things. (This might be an issue too, I've seen people over-commit more with Lucas than most other characters... it seems tempting to do that when landing a first hit haha)

I'm interested in understanding why you have difficulty killing, as I've yet to experience a problem, and the 2 players I've helped with this regarding their Lucas's had very different issues. (one neglects grab, the other tries too hard to get clean hits)
Care to elaborate on how you try getting kills/what seems to be the difficulty in doing whatever you might be trying to do?

 

[Burnsy]

I know Bamesy is to a degree infamous for his uncommon opinions and way of explaining things, but in this case (among select others) I'll have to agree.

Killing doesn't feel that hard when you know many good ways of setting them up (mostly his smashes and some dair). If all else fails, his u-throw is pretty much guaranteed if you know what percents it will kill at, even with good DI. Bair is awkward to use when first picking him up but in time it becomes easier to use.

I also agree that down-b is a very solid move as is. It may have some similarities to a shine but it also has several other applications due to its momentum effects. I would experiment with gliding around with it and using your double jump to waveland out or create a mix-up with a djc move.

I'm confused why you would complain that fair and uair don't kill, as that obviously wasn't the point of these moves. Fair in particular is a very useful combo move, when properly djc'd it can even true combo into itself on many floaties. Same goes for djc uair on fast fallers and heavies.

None of this is meant to say that you "aren't good with Lucas" but rather that Lucas is pretty unique and I don't see a lot of established players picking him up and doing well with him right away like they do with other characters. That's not to say that he's too technical or hard to use but rather that he is unique enough that skill transfer doesn't work quite as well and you may need to spend extra time training with him to fully realize his stengths.

 

[Nausicaa]

You usually disagree with me?
That's interesting... is this common too? I hope those were separate statements by you. >_> lol

What he said about unique skill development.^

Otherwise, side note...
I rarely ever use Fair or Uair. Everyone from the average tournament video to locals tends to have a strong place in their game for these 2 moves, but this is something I seemed to just not get involved with. I haven't really thought about it, but there naturally just seems to always be something funner/better for me to do. Whether it's a Nair or Bair or whatever. Things like Utilt > FH Nair, even at low-mid juggles, are much more appealing to me than Utilt > Uair, for example.
The follow/chase and maneuvering game that comes with this type of play seems far more beneficial and rewarding than any direct 'chipping away' with combos.

I'd appreciate if some others could try this simple concept (Nair through things mid-combo) in place of any Fair/Uair usage, and let me know what they think of it. Particularly, things like Uthrow/Utilt/Magnet DJ/whatever, and following it with unorthodox things, and Nair > follow up Grab/Dash Attack/Magnet/DJ PK Freeze upon landing/whatever is a good beacon to look into the seemingly uncommon stuff.

Hope that makes sense, I'd like to see what others have to say once they've applied it in some games. At least to some consistency. It's been working wonders for me and in terms of 'analyzing' things, seems a lot more functional and effective for the character. Leads to kills easier it seems too. :/

 

[Burnsy]

Its not that I usually disagree with you, quite the opposite. However, your way of expressing your views can occasionally seem confusing and in other cases could be read to seem condescending. No disrespect to you, this may not be your intention.

As to your comment about nair, I agree, when comboing around fullhop height it seems to be much more rewarding most of the time. Just because you don't see Lucas players doing this often in videos, you shouldn't assume that none of us make this decision. Another good choice at this height in some match ups could be dair to tech chase, or jab reset if they give you the opportunity. Choosing to follow up with nair, fair and uair is something that I find myself doing much closer to the ground.
I'm really surprised that you rarely use these two moves, to me they seem far too useful to ignore altogether. Does that mean that for the most part, you dont really use djc aerials altogether? If so, I think that's a big mistake. It also makes me wonder if you play against a wide variety of characters (not just in friendlies but against mains of a diverse bunch), as there are situations where I feel fair is an much better choice for an opening aerial than nair.

As for your comments on utilt, I hope you don't mean using it as an approach/opening move in the neutral game. From neutral, utilt is a pretty bad choice, although there are a few specific situations where it can be combo'd into safely and smartly. If your opponents are letting you open them up with an utilt however, rather than being combo'd into it, then it makes me wonder if your opponents aren't very good. I also think there are better punish options than utilt that can just as easily lead into juggles with some practice, especially at the mid to higher percents.

 

[Nausicaa]

Ok, that makes sense.
Yeah, massive dialogues in written form about the topics I refer to can come across that way, quite easily too. I gotta watch it among people who aren't expecting it AKA aren't coming to me for that kind of stuff.

For the 'combo at FH height thing', I'm mainly referring to Nair in the sense that, when you hit someone upwards and could follow (with SH Uair even, so pretty low still, early %), I like to FH Nair 'through' them and follow from there. It's just an awkward trajectory it sends them, and gives nice positioning/timing when air-born that way after connecting a Nair at lower %. It often leads to good positioning near the edge or forces them to tech, due to the weird trajectory and speed of it. Falling into things like Dair, Wavelands, DJ PKF, etc, are all options from there.
It's just a personal trick I like to play because I think it's fun and always leads to something new, but I've found it to be exceptionally functional and practical.

Utilt was just an example of something that 'hits someone upwards' and everything from Uthrow to Dash Attack could replace it. Nothing about Utilt itself was meant to have any significance there. lol

Yeah, it's a little odd, but Lucas has a lot of options. For one, I don't think I really consider using aerials often as 'opening' moves. The majority of my neutral/spacing/zoning game is based on his mobility itself. Usually this involves Grab, sometimes poking with Magnet or Ftilt when appropriate, and aerials kind of fall into that 'other' category.
DJC aerials find there place in combos, and often in the neutral game, but they're definitely not a center point of my game. At least, it's not something I give too much attention to. I probably DJC more than I'm 'expressing' I do, but I think of it more like 'lining up aerials' rather than 'how' I'm doing it. So idonno.
There's a silly diversity in characters in my particular region, but yeah, there's always room to grow with it. For me, applying Fair and Uair eventually is inevitable in some form. Nair I don't like as an 'opener' either really.

 

[Burnsy]

The way that nair eats and eventually pokes shields seems useful to me, you usually want to cross over so you land behind them after doing it. If I use it in this way it seems difficult to punish for a lot of people, unless they are expecting it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah I was mostly just making that post for me to collect me thoughts before playing. I think I might take my lucas to a tournament tomorrow to try my luck against some better players, but I think I have a lot of his stuff figured out. Thanks for the replies tho :D

Before I was just doing a lot of spacing, not really comboing. I managed a kill with his uair today, which was kinda silly. I have begun to really like his uair. After looking at the hitbox thread, I started working some reverse bair. Between that and just aiming bair better in general, my kill rate went up. I also started doing some stuff like fair->usmash. Oh yeah, zair combos into bair on certain DIs at certain percents. Ummm... what else... magnet->uair is pretty sound on hit and on block (assuming you spaced ok). I'm still not exactly sure what the best followup after dthrow is, assuming they DI. I think uair might be the best since it combos pretty consistently, but i still want to do some testing (can you dthrow->bair?).

I'm still not entirely sure what the problem with dair is. It is so easy to meteor cancel. I finished a combo with dair and my opponent easily double jump sweetspotted the edge. Honestly, I find it to be relatively worthless as a finisher, but lucas has nothing better on his front side.

I don't like nair that much. I love that it has insane priority, but it is very easy to SDI out and it can also be CC'd. The unreliability makes me use the move scarcely. I've tried it in combos, but I don't like that much, especially the FH nair. If you FH nair and they SDI out at any point before the final hit, they will make it to the ground before you and can reverse the situation. I would rather fair/uair and guarantee my advantage at the sacrifice of more reward.

UTHROW IS A KO THROW!?!?!? OMG I'VE BEEN USING BTHROW AND IT DOESN'T KO UNTIL 150%+ T_T

My problem with uair and fair not killing: yes I know they are combo moves and I get that, but in melee good combo moves eventually turned in to sub-par KO moves. Marth's sweetspot fair could KO puff at like 120%. DK's uair KO'd off the top after 100%. Hell, even falco's shine can KO lol. I just want more knockback scaling, so that by 150% if I hit with a fair I am getting a solid edgeguard or KO not just them DIing up and not caring.

 

[Burnsy]

Based on what I'm reading, I really recommend you continue to play more before you try to make any really strong judgements on certain moves. These seem like pretty early impressions, especially if you weren't aware that u-throw was a killing throw.

Comboing is the name of the game with Lucas. Due to difficult in approaching certain characters, winning those match-ups will depend on your ability to not drop combos, in my experience.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Oh yeah, of course. I never make my mind up on things, i just like to observe and use others' ideas to supplement my own.

 

[Burnsy]

Good . With them meteor canceling dair, what percent was this happening at? Be sure you were hitting with the energy/electric sweetspot that extends past his feet, I find its pretty strong and can get the kill pretty well past 100 percent on most characters. The sourspot is much, much weaker.

Good luck with him at your tournament tomorrow! I'll be doing the same, maybe we both can bring some good discussion from our experiences.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yeah I am hitting with the sweetspot. This usually happens around 100% after I land a tech chase dair or similar launcher. I think it is the combination of the obvious startup animation and the extra hitlag generated by the lightning effect gives the opponent plenty of time to prepare, not to mention they still have their jump which makes meteor canceling pretty easy.

 

[Burnsy]

Interesting, not a problem I feel like I've really had much of, and I play a few pretty good players here in AZ. Which character?

I guess just be ready to edgeguard the low recovery that you've forced or smack them with another dair. That's what I tend to do after I've landed one. Even if they meteor cancel it, at a high percent it should at least put you in a fairly advantageous position by forcing them to recover a certain way.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Uhh this specific instance happened against a wario.

 

[Nausicaa]

Instead of tech-chase Dair into another Dair, do a Dair into Nair. Nair has good trajectory in front of him.
It shouldn't be too hard to line up a Nair in a way that it hits with the desired hard hit. This is just like Fox lining up Uair, but a lot easier.
You can use Uthrow to combo well too.

Work with his ground-game, that mobility stuff is what makes the character solid, his tools are just gravy.

 

[Burnsy]

Was that directed at me? I never said tech chase dair into dair...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nah it was to me. I'll try that

 

[Ishiey]

Am I wrong in assuming that at that in between point a RAR bair or fair might work?

Nah, fair works and bair probably does as well. Dthrow is so good lol

Sveet, on fair, I'm basically positive the lack of KBG will be fixed in the next release.

:059

 

[Nausicaa]

Tampered with some Lucas today, and yeah, still not a huge fan of Fair/Uair, but I use them more than 'never' at least.
So much grab and ftilt... seriously... I could play with just those moves in the neutral game I'm sure.

 

[Burnsy]

We play a very different Lucas.

 

[BryE]

Tampered with some Lucas today, and yeah, still not a huge fan of Fair/Uair, but I use them more than 'never' at least.
So much grab and ftilt... seriously... I could play with just those moves in the neutral game I'm sure.

Not a huge fan of Fair/Uair? Those are Lucas's main combo starters/approaching tools (mainly his fair being an approach).
How could your Lucas metagame mainly focus around just grab and ftilt?


As for my Lucas, I believe it follows the same principles as other Lucas players.
My Lucas mainly consist of the following:

- Nairs
- Fairs
- DJC Fairs
- PK Freeze
- PSI Magnet
- Zair

I use other moves as well in my combo game, but overall my Lucas is mostly compiled of those moves. I normally stick with SH PK Freeze/DJC PK Freeze in order to approach or space my opponent out. (PK Freeze seriously reminds me of a fireball due to it's priority). And his DJC Fair is reaaally safe if you can space it properly as well as L-Cancelling every DJC Aerial you do. I also tried experimenting with SH Magnet > DJC Fair but I'm not really sure what I can use it for other than shield pressure.

 

[Burnsy]

I also tried experimenting with SH Magnet > DJC Fair but I'm not really sure what I can use it for other than shield pressure.

One way I use it is sort of like Peaches float, as a way of spacing aerials at them.

The thing thats nice about SH magnet gliding is that since you can jump cancel out of it, it becomes an extremely non-committal and flexible option. With it you can decide what do do on the fly, even if its just glide towards them > waveland away if you're worried that they'll try to punish it. If they shield, magnet is great on shield. If they use a dumb move to try to beat out your magnet, djc into a fair. If they run the other way, djc into a pkf and make them shield, or waveland and chase after them.

 

[Nausicaa]

I simply use grab as a 'starter' instead. Spacing a WD DJC Fair or Dash SH Fair is cool and all, but I just don't really have it as a focal point in my game.
Ftilt is amazing. With a DD/Pivot and WDOOS game being so quick and solid, the speed and range of Ftilt, as well as the decent trajectory/knock-back make it really appealing to me.

PKF I use even less.

Zair, Magnet, Bair, some things like that get a decent amount more use than Fair/Uair.
Yeah, WL backwards after an aerial Magnet covers everything Magnet can provide. Pretty covered with that follow-up option, regardless of what happens.

 

[Burnsy]

Do you have any videos of your Lucas up, Nausicaa? I'd like to see your playstyle in action, maybe there are some things that you do that might be helpful for me to incorporate into my game.

 

[Nausicaa]

Anything you see of me will just be stuff you can generally find in other matches. Someone who is good at hitting people with the things they want to hit them with, and good at avoiding getting hit by the things they don't want to get hit with. I don't play Lucas often aside from trying to help to couple local Lucas players, and he's hasn't been/isn't' yet in a batch of characters I'm working with.
No videos, but a local player has a Dazzle now, just need to get it hooked up. When it's ready, I'll go out of my way to do that, as Lucas really does seem to be a character people are having 'difficulties' with regarding dynamics.

I generally prefer not 'showing' people what to do, and instead help them figure things out for themselves, but I'm growing less strict with that.

Tl;dr, soon, probably, but likely after videos of much other stuff.


Edit: I think this post is one of those ones that can seem pompous or whatever that people talk about...
All I meant by it was, there's always stuff to learn from peeps, but learning how other peeps learned 'their' stuff is more valuable than simple learning their 'stuff' flat-out.
Hope that makes sense. haha

 

[Burnsy]

I think you misunderstand my intentions. Some of your posts are puzzling to me given the way that I play Lucas and understand the character. I seek only to see how the advice you give actually works out in real matches.

I have already dedicated hundreds of hours to training this character with my own style, and will continue to do so. I have no problem "figuring out things on my own", although if I see something another player does that is effective for them I will experiment to see if it can work together with my current tool set.

How are you helping local players with a character you yourself haven't devoted much time to? I can't see how you'd have much to contribute as far as character specific strategies go. This is another reason I would like to see you play.

 

[Nausicaa]

Yeah for sure, I get that and it's good. My intention is that I can say "WDOOS" and not have to show its application, people will benefit more from trying it and growing with it. The same applies to all things. I'm not opposed to just 'doing it' and letting others watch, and I have much faith knowing people can figure anything out on their own, it's just a preference as it's historically been more beneficial to let peeps do their thang.

That's reasonable too, though nothing is as complicated as people seem to think in this game. It really doesn't take much to figure things out, just a bit of playing, or even just perceiving, then applying. It's not like I was the best Falco/Pika/whoever when coaching some of the best in the world with those characters. There's a big difference between the ways people understand, and apply, everything to this game. Figure that out, and you can learn anything in a pinch!

Just generally being experienced at smash, and aware of what makes you and others do what you all do, will naturally translate/come with being able to find the nooks and crannies of the game-content too. People are good for a reason, figure out that reason, and you can learn anything in a pinch!

Funny how working on different ways of learning, or improving the way we learn, helps all sorts of goodness in a pinch.

Yeah, anyway, I'll do that video thing sometime, but strongly recommend working a lot with staying grounded, and applying Shield baits and WDOOS Ftilts, at least to start. Sounds like it's something you're interested in, and sounds like you'll be aware enough to catch on to whatever application there may be fairly smoothly.
Just do it, and you'll get it, as you know you will.

 

[Needsmorespin]

Tried Lucas today for the hell of it...Holy Sh*t he's a lot of fun to play

 

[Burnsy]

Indeed he is. It only gets better from there.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

My lucas is getting pretty good, watch out for some vids sometime. After finals I might start entering tournaments again, who knows. I finally figured out the spacing for utilt; it has so much priority its hard not to want to abuse it. My combos are consistently up to 3-4 hits before tech mixups but i have efficiency problems to work through yet. I still wish lucas' dair was better, it is way too easy to meteor cancel and fair doesn't work very well to convert into an edgeguard. Luckily Lucas' anti air game is good enough to punish people who DI all the combos up.

 

[Burnsy]

You really don't like fair? I've always liked the move a lot, it doesn't send them far but puts them in a lot of hitstun and its really easy to follow their DI. I agree it's not very good at putting them offstage, but maybe the landing hit of nair can do that for you?

Are you implementing his airdodge zair to keep up combos? I've said it many times and I'll say it again, its easily one of his most underrated moves.

 

[BryE]

You really don't like fair? I've always liked the move a lot, it doesn't send them far but puts them in a lot of hitstun and its really easy to follow their DI. I agree it's not very good at putting them offstage, but maybe the landing hit of nair can do that for you?

Are you implementing his airdodge zair to keep up combos? I've said it many times and I'll say it again, its easily one of his most underrated moves.

Zair is easily one of his best aerial moves to combo into/with. I find myself using Zair extremely often since it doesn't have that much lag. Combined with Magnet, it can generate decent shield pressure. And while getting back onto the stage, airdodge zair is easilly the best move to use while recovering since it's really fast as well.

As for people not using his fair, I hardly believe why people wouldn't use it. When it's DJC'd, you can string multiple Fairs into a Dair or a DACUS (at certain percentages) and it's pretty decent to use it as a safe approach. I started using less and less Uairs against lighter characters though. Mainly because I believe it's more useful against heavier characters.


What's interesting about Lucas is that you can play him at a non technical level and still do decent with him. His technical play with DJCs, Waveshining, and etc are still key things to learn if you're trying to pick up Lucas seriously though. However it should be focused on later, after fundamentals are established for the character.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Zair is his most fundamentally broken move lol. I use it for all sorts of things, in the neutral to get an important first hit, when getting on the stage from the edge, even to bait and punish getup attacks haha

Fair is pretty good in terms of priority and leads into some combo moves, but you can't use it to push someone off the stage; they can just DI up and eventually your combos don't land and you can't force them to be edgeguarded. Dair doesn't really work because of how stupid easy it is to meteor cancel, not to mention you are usually well above the stage height when you finish with it

 

[Nausicaa]

Have you tried Nair as far as horizontal-hitting aerials to finish combos/position/whatever?
Reverse Bair really isn't difficult to land either. Easy to set up once it's clear how to set it up.

Don't finish with Dair, didn't we go over this before? Maybe you're just re-mentioning how it's not very good. haha

BryE put it well, fundamentals all the way.
Ground-based DD/WD Grab/Ftilt game, all the way. Everything else stems from there. So fast!

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yep just rementioning it. Honestly I dont see the point of the move. I use it in tech chases and traps sometimes, but if i cant use a spike as a finisher EVER there is something wrong with it. Especially when it seems like most combos were intended to be finished with dair.

I am very against nair in combos because of how easy it is to SDI it. Using nair practically guarantees your combo will end at that moment one way or another. Too much of a risk for me, I would rather end in uair or fair and use traps or mixups to convert it into a new combo.