Lucas General Discussion

[Nausicaa]

The end-lag on Nair is so minimal, even if they get out while you Uair > DJ Nair them, or whatever leads into it, you should have room and control of the positioning.
Dragging people down with it Wolf-Nair style is sexy too. DJC Nair FF and re-grab makes me happy. From there you can just throw > Bair/Fsmash/whatever anyway.

Aerials are overused anyway. Grab/Ftilt where it's at.

 

[Burnsy]

How quickly are they SDIing out? I'd like to see this in practice because I finding it somewhat hard to believe, but maybe those who I play with aren't very skilled yet in SDIing fast moves. When someone is doing this to you, would it maybe help to fast fall or DJC the nair in order to carry them into the landing hitboxes as soon as possible? As I'm sure you're aware, the landing hit is much stronger and usually sets up for a good combo into fair, grab (if hit behind) or tech chase depending on percent.

Edit: made this post before I refreshed and saw Bamesy's stating more or less the same advice. Except that ftilt/grab business. I mean ftilt is an average-to-good move for poking and stuffing approaches, and grab has great range and lasts long, but I don't know how a neutral game for Lucas could be based primarily on those two moves, especially with how punishable grab is and how bad ftilt is at setting up follow up damage.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Wavedash utilt all day, cmon

 

[Burnsy]

I feel really unsafe using utilt raw.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

really? it has a lot of priority, leads into any move you want, and doesn't have much lag at all

 

[BryE]

Edit: made this post before I refreshed and saw Bamesy's stating more or less the same advice. Except that ftilt/grab business. I mean ftilt is an average-to-good move for poking and stuffing approaches, and grab has great range and lasts long, but I don't know how a neutral game for Lucas could be based primarily on those two moves, especially with how punishable grab is and how bad ftilt is at setting up follow up damage.

I agree with this.

I'm not sure how long Lucas can continue to have a stable metagame if all the player focuses on are Grabs and Ftilt.
I find myself not using Ftilt that often. It's a quick move, but it's more of a poke than anything else. It can possibly be used to ledge-guard but other than that, I'm not sure.

The main moves that I normally use consist of Zair, Magnet, DJC Fair, and PK Freeze (to space and open up defenses mainly) I've been experimenting with SH magnet into a low DJC Zair for shield pressure and it seems kinda useful but I'm not entirely sure.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I don't find djc very useful with lucas, tbh. There are certain things I use it for, but lucas already has one of the best short hops and it fits his aerials quite well. More often than not, DJC just wastes valuable frames.

 

[Burnsy]

ERROR ERROR DOES NOT COMPUTE

 

[BryE]

I . . . don't think Lucas wastes frames when he DJCs. Maybe on startup, but if you're DJCing properly while being as optimal as possible with your inputs, then you aren't wasting frames.

I just dream about the day that I'll finally be able to pull even half of these shield pressure combos off.

 

[Burnsy]

The 1 frame to djc is not a waste, you give up a practically intangible amount of time and gain complete vertical control over your aerial spacing while simultaneously reducing the time it takes to reach the ground and l-cancel, like a hyper speed shffl, and that's only one potential use.

A high level player is not doing the character justice if they don't appropriately abuse DJC in and out of combos.

Edit: By the way, the number of views on that video is a damn shame compared to dozens of Project M tech videos. Nobody loves poor Lucas

 

[SpiderMad]

I remember Mofo stating in the ness boards that using the tap jump for the DJC makes you unable to move left/right with it, which limits DJC Aerials a lot in terms of everything in the video since they're all more or less stationary when performed with tap jump

 

[Badge]

I remember Mofo stating in the ness boards that using the tap jump for the DJC makes you unable to move left/right with it, which limits DJC Aerials a lot in terms of everything in the video since they're all more or less stationary when performed with tap jump

That's right in Melee, but in wrong in Project:M. You gain full horizontal movement by using tap jump diagonally up or at least near enough to not make a difference.

 

[Nausicaa]

Cool.

Poor Lucas

Just as someone focuses on PKF/DJC Fairs in the neutral game, I focus on Ftilt/Grab. It's not exclusively those, it's just the backbone of my play because I love his ground speed so much. Magnet, Zair, DJC Dair/Bair/Fair/etc all have their place.

Above like 40%, Ftilt gets some pretty solid knock-back, and given the move comes out nearly instantly, it gives me a crazy presence anytime the opponent is on stage. Often anticipating it, they'll shield from a good Dash + WD away, but space it sexy and grab on reaction, it's pretty easy to control the entire bulk of the stage with that mix-up alone.

 

[Burnsy]

Ok, I think I have a better understanding of your reasoning with grab/ftilt, I guess I didn't realize how you mixed those up. I can see that being useful in matchups where it is harder to approach.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But yeah, there are some things that DJC is useful for, but lucas already has one of the best short hops so it is unnecessary to use the djc in most scenarios. For example, you can djc uair in your combo or you can shffl uair in your combo to the same result. The only advantage DJC has in my mind is the additional horizontal momentum which can be used in certain neutral situations and in tech chasing/trapping.

I don't think lucas really needs shield pressure because he has so many options to space on the shield, but I am going to practice some of those anyways. Couldn't hurt I guess.

 

[Burnsy]

If you djc your aerials you can reach the ground sooner than you would off a shorthop and therefore act much sooner, I'm not sure on the specifics but a conservative guess would be that well executed DJCs shave off somewhere around 15-30 frames that you would normally spend in the air after hitting with a sh aerial, depending on when in your jump you hit them, maybe more. Given that most moves start up in less time than that I'd consider that to be a significant speed improvement and allows for follow ups that weren't possible off a sh.

You can't true combo floaties with SH fair chains, only if you DJC at appropriate heights.

 

[Nausicaa]

Best shield pressure?
Grab. Why would you want anything else anyway? It's not like your Falco who can't do much out of them and resorts to Shine-Grabbing anyway because it's such a good shield-pressure options.

Grab is good against shields. :D

 

[specialkyo]

DJC is insaaaaaanely important to Lucas. Imagine you are fighting a fox and he runs at you. What are his options? Yeah.. ok.. Good. Now imagine a Lucas runs at you, but now you have to worry about djc'd moves directly in your face. Yep, because DJC stops all horizontal momentum you can aim exactly where you want your moves to go. Run up and start pecking at the shield with some fair's if they tend to shield too often. Since you can aim exactly where you want you can choose if you want to go in close and risk a shield grab, or.. you can get in really close and back up ever so slightly on your next fair to bait a shield grab and then punish. You could also back up and use neutral b to push them back. Use this if they are near ledges to force a grab and limit their options. That's a few examples using just his fair. He has more than 4 other options that are just as viable as using fair when running at an opponent.

Lucas can really control the flow of the match if given the right spacing and uses of his unique tool belt.

DJC has so many uses. Jump right in front of your opponent and think what do you want to do?
Here is a list options -

Still in the air?
You can djc fair's, dair's, uair's, nair's or zair's (that's right zair's will need to be talked about more often in PM because of Lucas and potentially the other tether users as well) these can be used for any type of pressure you would like to start from; all of which can lead into grabs at different percents. Most of them work at low percents by the way.
Short hop Zair into grab at 0-15 percent is practically a guarantee.
Bair's are a little trickier and aren't quite worth the risk, however they can still be used for sexy combos as well. Try using down b cancelled wavedash back into a djc bair. So sexy for a quick finisher.

Down B into DJC anyhing from here as well. Putting in the Down B before initiating an attack is one of my favorite pecking moves. It knocks the shield around which can mess up the opponent. If they failed to shield then I can read it and move into a djc uair or wave dash into some other tech chase.
You can even down b into another down b if you feel like it. Get good at this pressure and you can down b pressure the crap out of the shield while stationary or while hopping back and forth over them (Gotta get a video in real life of this because it will be sexy).. If you feel like stopping just jc grab or jc into any aerial of your choosing. If you use nair it might set up for a possible shield break too, although fair or dair should be used to push the opponent back.

If you don't feel like being in your opponent's face then just jump back, psi-cancelled wavedash back, or do a retreating zair with either a full jump or a short hop to stay close.

Once other people start experimenting with neutral b's 'wind force' or even with his stale/sweetspot combos they will see how truly complex he is. He has so many options it's overwhelming. That's just using his aerials and down b. He also has that wild DACUS and magnet chase combos. His up b can be used for so much more than just recovery as well. The list can go on forever with Lucas!

Lucas also has a great up throw and up smash to boot. The list.. liiiiisssssssssssssssssst.

 

[SpiderMad]

I still feel starting/approaching and repeating DJC sucks a lot because of his near dead horizontal control from it (nice to know it has more control than Melee though when using Tapjump 8adge). I'll also challenge anyone to any kind of DJC'off [Like Double shine down-b to two DJC Fairs or something] (but like I said it seems hard to maximize the full horizontal movement of stuff like DJC fair to make it useful)

 

[Burnsy]

Here's another little known trick: You can do a sort of "instant PKT2" if you up-b very quickly as you get airborne with a running jump, it's pretty hard to explain but Lucas sort of retains momentum rather than freezing in place during the start of PKT1 and ends up very close to his electro-sperm when it comes out. Just a quick flick downward and it'll hit him (An easier way to see this effect is to do an up-b when running off a platform, but this version of the AT is between situational and useless).

The grounded version off a jump may actually have some viable tech chase applications, my man Chaser aka BryE here on the boards has already made successful use of this in friendlies after I told him about it the other day. The execution is a lot easier if you use tap jump, as the up-b has to come out relatively fast.

Mad maybe I'm reading you wrong but I didn't get the impression that anyone is saying you need to be repeating djc fair over and over. Just like any character, Lucas will benefit from not being predictable with his moves. He just has the added benefit of additional control over his vertical spacing. To me Lucas is a character that spends most of his time on the ground or barely grazing over it, I don't see him needing to have much horizontal mobility in the air outside of what he gets with sh magnet gliding.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4563.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej-sre1QATg&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbjY68HPZ7k&feature=player_detailpage#t=397s

 

[BryE]

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4563.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ej-sre1QATg&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbjY68HPZ7k&feature=player_detailpage#t=397s

That Falco Up B ledgegrab was dope.

 

[Dron]

I love quick PKT, it can be really unpredictable when used rarely and spontaneously, and it can also cover tech options well

a silly edgeguard I've been wanting to try is a grounded quick PKT to cover the getup/roll option and edge cancelling it so that you can instantly DJ back and ice them or whatever if they ledgehop/jump

 

[BryE]

I love quick PKT, it can be really unpredictable when used rarely and spontaneously, and it can also cover tech options well

a silly edgeguard I've been wanting to try is a grounded quick PKT to cover the getup/roll option and edge cancelling it so that you can instantly DJ back and ice them or whatever if they ledgehop/jump

That actually sounds pretty decent. The problem of that is spacing it just enough so you get the edge cancel perfectly. I'm sure it's not too hard to do though.

I honestly want to find ways so you can combo into it. It's a stretch but it's something that I'd like to see one day. lol

 

[Dron]

I can edgecancel it pretty casually at this point without too much practice, it seems pretty lenient

I think the biggest problem with it would be a getup attack actually outprioritizing it (I assume that's what would happen at least)

 

[BryE]

I can edgecancel it pretty casually at this point without too much practice, it seems pretty lenient

I think the biggest problem with it would be a getup attack actually outprioritizing it (I assume that's what would happen at least)

Actually iirc, getup attacks have invulnerability frames.

So I'm sure if a person timed their getup attack against Lucas's up B, Lucas would get hit out of it. I don't recall Lucas having invincibility frames during PKT2 though.

 

[Burnsy]

He is intangible only on the first two frames of PKT2. It may be able to outproritize the over 100% get-up attacks for certain characters though.

 

[BryE]

He is intangible only on the first two frames of PKT2. It may be able to outproritize the over 100% get-up attacks for certain characters though.

Hmm possibly.

Didn't know he was invulnerable for the first two frames of pkt2 though. That's interesting.

 

[Badge]

Best shield pressure?
Grab. Why would you want anything else anyway? It's not like your Falco who can't do much out of them and resorts to Shine-Grabbing anyway because it's such a good shield-pressure options.

Grab is good against shields. :D

Grab is good, but one of your slowest options both to start and to end, so it's not the be-all and end-all.

I still feel starting/approaching and repeating DJC sucks a lot because of his near dead horizontal control from it (nice to know it has more control than Melee though when using Tapjump 8adge). I'll also challenge anyone to any kind of DJC'off [Like Double shine down-b to two DJC Fairs or something] (but like I said it seems hard to maximize the full horizontal movement of stuff like DJC fair to make it useful)

This is the distance you should be getting from just the DJC at minimum height and it's really not hard unless you want to do stuff like jump forward->instantly DJC backwards. On the other hand it feels like you've only got three distances too choose from (if you cancel on the first frame), which isn't much. Still DJC-Fairs let you bridge marginally larger distances than running short hop Fairs from being able to run again sooner.

 

[SpiderMad]

how'd u make that picture?

 

[Burnsy]

Damn that's awesome. Practicing this asap.

 

[Nausicaa]

Can Ness do instant Up-B's? (off-topic but whatever)
I haven't bothered using Lucas's Up-B on stage almost ever, but ledge-cancelling shouldn't be too tough, especially if you're pre-meditating your actions to do it. With this, maybe I'll try it more often. It's easy with Ness, though he slides more, he has a much greater distance for it. Lucas should have some ease ledge-cancelling it with little practice.

I DJC Fair opponents just to get grabs.
lol
DJC is handy for covering short distances (not Dash or WD length) with a hit-box for protection, without leaving the ground to commit to anything, and coming across like an action to opponents has some good mental advantages to it.
Grab rocks.

Edit: U-Throw > Up-B tech-chase > Grab.
Woop

 

[Badge]

The biggest drawback of DJCing imo is just that it uses up your double jump, which can be quite deadly.

Fun fact: DJC FF AC BAir is two frames faster than a WD. Don't think it's worth risking your DJ or screwing up, though.
Oh, and you can do the same thing instead of waveland in place to land on a platform and it may actually be useful here.

how'd u make that picture?

Dolphin+Gimp. I just performed an advancing, stationary and retreating DJC FAir starting from the same frame and took pictures of the resulting positions - in pause so that the camera position is identical. I then just cut them so that you could see everything.

 

[Burnsy]

Fun fact: DJC FF AC BAir is two frames faster than a WD. Don't think it's worth risking your DJ or screwing up, though.
Oh, and you can do the same thing instead of waveland in place to land on a platform and it may actually be useful here.

You can also do it with djc PKF before the ice ball comes out, and it certainly is useful as a way to act sooner on platforms. I think the PKF autocancel window is more lenient than bair, but idk if you could fastfall it for added precision. Do all auto-cancels have the same amount of cool down?

 

[Badge]

You can also do it with djc PKF before the ice ball comes out, and it certainly is useful as a way to act sooner on platforms. I think the PKF autocancel window is more lenient than bair, but idk if you could fastfall it for added precision. Do all auto-cancels have the same amount of cool down?

Autocancels just trigger normal landing, which is 4 frames. I didn't even know PKF had a autocancel window, now I see why it felt so fast to act out of a canceled PKF...
The window shouldn't matter as the 6 frames you gain won't really help you if you have to drop for 12 frames before that, but PKF might be easier to use anyway. And you can turn around with it before landing.

 

[SpiderMad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJJAHxx-QbU you'll have to do dolphin tests, DJC PKF should be shorter but I couldn't tell from my video: there's also the fact that down-b lands you on platforms when used at the right height.

Also I just want to say 2.5 Lucas is still a fraud of the real 2.1 Lucas, whether it's some of the minor changes towards him or a mix up of that and the lag input fix: he's a bad reflection of his former self but none of you possess close to the level of smoothness of Naerok to notice including Calabrel [also most of you don't know the power of the light press air dodge to take smoothness to the next level].

And someone challenge me to a DJC'off, you noobs are behind on your DJCs
I was using all this years ago http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC6FL-TRdZI (this video sucks besides also being old, I was testing if the recording would even work)
and I'm super powa now (besides 2.5 Lucas only being able to express a third of it)

 

[Burnsy]

SpiderMad, input lag =/= buffer. Being less "smooth" with 2.5 Lucas doesn't make him a fraud, he only became more responsive in the transition. If anything it exposes your execution as fraudulent since you required the 1-2 frame lag barrier between your hands and the TV in order to keep up with his speed and be "smooth" with him.

 

[SpiderMad]

I was programming inputs into the future and achieving speeds and reaching heights of smoothness only those like Naerok could even dream of. The slightly more responsiveness comes at a great cost. I swear they also made changes to his or global physics for him to be less smooth besides the input lag though.

Here's the max amount of smoothment possible for a 2.5 Lucas peasant
~50 (~60 with 1 frame of buffer)
And 2.1 Lucas
100
And 2.1 Lucas with light press air dodge
160+
And 2.1 Lucas with light press air dodge and 1 frame of buffer
180+

1 frame of buffer is more useful when you have light press air dodge, otherwise buffer has nothing to work with on the hard press air dodge since it sucks so much.

 

[Burnsy]

Smoothment is not a word and feelings are not data

I have the springs removed on my controller so all presses are hard press. Pretty much mimics the responsiveness of light press airdodge.

 

[SpiderMad]

So we can agree light press air dodge is better than hard press with springs then?