Exactly what it sounds like :3 Discuss Lucas stuff here, from thoughts on the character in the latest demo to questions about how to use him effectively to metagame development to tournament performance. And everything else too.
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Lucas General Discussion
- Thread starter Ishiey
- Start date
What are you talking about, Lucas shoots ice.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
I like to think of Lucas as a pseudo-spacie :3
<3
If we really want Lucas to be a spacie, it's time to start nair > magnet spamming our opponents.
Has anyone found a good use for fthrow, aside from when you're right by the ledge? Bthrow/uthrow are stronger, and dthrow/uthrow are better for comboing.
If we really want Lucas to be a spacie, it's time to start nair > magnet spamming our opponents.
Has anyone found a good use for fthrow, aside from when you're right by the ledge? Bthrow/uthrow are stronger, and dthrow/uthrow are better for comboing.
`dazrin
Smash Champion
Typically, I just use fthrow to get people offstage near a ledge. It's a situational throw.
I usually use uthrow when I'm on a low-ceiling stage or against floaties that I need to kill, and I use dthrow to lead into usmash or utiltcombos.
Also I think Lucas' fair is an extremely good move (as good as his nair) that doesn't seem to get used often. :b
I usually use uthrow when I'm on a low-ceiling stage or against floaties that I need to kill, and I use dthrow to lead into usmash or utiltcombos.
Also I think Lucas' fair is an extremely good move (as good as his nair) that doesn't seem to get used often. :b
Lucas is so cool! I want to hear what people think of the falco matchup. I think it is good for lucas. Lucas' ddc fair/uair out of shield is mobile and really fast to deal with pressure. This works especially well with his slipperyness as first/second hits of pressure often send him out of the range of subsequent pressure. He can deal with lasers well with his magnet and can weave back and forth using it to mess with the standard falco shl approach. Lucas also has some pretty good combos on falco, nair psi cannot be CC'd. Up-tilt to upsmash/grabs can work at higher % and edge guarding is freeee. Thoughts?
Master WGS
Smash Lord
Falco will murder you when you try to get back, and absorbing lasers is asinine as it just gives Falco an opening.
That said, we can combo him pretty hard and his bad recovery makes him SUPER easy to gimp. I'd say it's relatively close, with maybe Lucas having the slightest advantage? Though, I don't play many great Falcos, so I'm not totally sure.
Also Ness is bad. Go back to your own boards, nerd.
That said, we can combo him pretty hard and his bad recovery makes him SUPER easy to gimp. I'd say it's relatively close, with maybe Lucas having the slightest advantage? Though, I don't play many great Falcos, so I'm not totally sure.
Also Ness is bad. Go back to your own boards, nerd.
Yeah, that's about all I have for fthrow as well. Dthrow is so good though, no matter which way your opponent DIs you have guaranteed combo extenders / kill combos :3
Fair is really good, I'd say around the same level as nair/uair overall. The disjoint on the move is pretty handy too because it's his most disjointed aerial, except I'm usually too busy flying around everywhere to bother spacing it properly
DJC fair is pretty sweet too.
On Falco: Idk, I used to think it was even-ish until I remembered that Falco mains have 11 years of metagame development on us I usually go with nair OoS to deal with Falco's pressure if I'm still in range, it's a little bit faster than DJC aerials and we rarely need the extra range from fair. Haven't had a chance to play the 2.5 release build, but the test builds I played before left me with too much cooldown when absorbing lasers to justify using it. Last thing I want is Falco getting all up in my face :x edgeguarding is indeed free, if they don't have match-up experience I just camp by the ledge for a bthrow lol.
Something I like to do against Fox/Falco is approach with nair, and pray they miss the tech so I can get a free jab reset into massive juggles or edgeguards. We can uthrow CG them for a while but it's best to just uthrow once and then go for utilt. I'd utilt directly out of jab resets if it weren't for CCing
Fair is really good, I'd say around the same level as nair/uair overall. The disjoint on the move is pretty handy too because it's his most disjointed aerial, except I'm usually too busy flying around everywhere to bother spacing it properly
DJC fair is pretty sweet too.On Falco: Idk, I used to think it was even-ish until I remembered that Falco mains have 11 years of metagame development on us
I usually go with nair OoS to deal with Falco's pressure if I'm still in range, it's a little bit faster than DJC aerials and we rarely need the extra range from fair. Haven't had a chance to play the 2.5 release build, but the test builds I played before left me with too much cooldown when absorbing lasers to justify using it. Last thing I want is Falco getting all up in my face :x edgeguarding is indeed free, if they don't have match-up experience I just camp by the ledge for a bthrow lol.Something I like to do against Fox/Falco is approach with nair, and pray they miss the tech so I can get a free jab reset into massive juggles or edgeguards. We can uthrow CG them for a while but it's best to just uthrow once and then go for utilt. I'd utilt directly out of jab resets if it weren't for CCing
Sartron
Smash Journeyman
Possibly, but Falco combos pretty hard compared to Lucas. Comboing fast fallers with Lucas does not look as efficient as the rest of the cast.
Maybe if Lucas could probably wavedash out of his psi magnet as if it was a shine. I have trouble wave dashing out of the magnet. Input assistance fixes this issue, but I don't want to rely on crutches.
Precisely the issue, using Psi Magnet on shl is as effective as using the Shine. It just wastes time and puts you in a poor position. As I said above, if Psi Magnet's JC time was adjusted we could have a much easier time transitioning from magnet to wd and so forth.
Maybe I need to play against more Falcos as well, but Falco still looks very dominant, but not far from reach. I would say no advantage to either, 50/50. It looks like this matchup takes practice.
tl;dr on this issue: As Ishieymoro said, Falco has 11 years of metagame on P:M, and is still good but not impossible.
- End of Falco Stuff -
Below I'm going to be writing a lot of my thoughts on Lucas's moveset and just Lucas things in general. Excuse the giant block of text, I feel like I probably could organize it, maybe a short guide or something. This feels like it'd be a good read, but I didn't really write MUs or anything important.
Jab
I've found one of my "best friends" to be the jab. Jab reset into Lucas's powerful OU smashes which I find handy to keep charged. The triple jab (A->A->A) knocks opponents down, sort of like Falcon's Gentleman. We can literally combo with jab. This also opens up and opportunity for a jab reset, or tech chase.
An important tool for Lucas is the running jab. What I mean by that is canceling your run and then jabbing. This is usually used to jab reset, and any character can do it. However, I find it especially important for Lucas's arsenal. For people who don't know how to do it: Run, Dash Cancel, Jab or in "controller" terms: Directional Stick Sideways (run), Directional Stick Downwards (dash cancel), A button (jab).
Tilts
One interesting property I've found on the down tilt is that it allows you to jab reset at lower percentages. At higher percents, it pops the opponent upwards off the ground. It looks like at higher percentages this can lead into a smash attack, or maybe even a grab. Also, like the jab, we can easily use it out of our running animation.
Another tilt I want to talk about is the FTilt (Forward Tilt.) I've found it to be very effective against shields and even edgeguarding. This is actually one of the tools I've found are effective against Falco. FTilt is a very well spaced move that can damage Falco safely in his recoveries, and quickly as well.
Next we have the utilt which seems to be our primary furry combo move. Upthrow to utilt spam, downthrow to utilt spam. Or just throw them out there. It's not as easy as that, of course, but I'm not going into that.
Throws
Pretty simple, up throw to kill or furry combo. uthrow to usmash to utilt are good starters on furries. UThrow is alright, but Lucas truly shines in his DThrow. Downthrow can chaingrab, open up a combo, and tech chase at low percents. DThrow fair, bair, utilt, uair, regrab, all these options. Definitely Lucas's best grab. His fthrow is pretty bland and his bthrow does what it needs to, with a little kick.
Specials
My recommendation with the specials: Use them. Lucas has very unique specials. I'll start with his charge: Charge it when you get the chance. It deals a good blows on a shield, and OU usmash smashes shields. OU downsmash has some of the best knockback ever, and wrecks at low percents.
Another important special is PK Freeze. It's important to learn to DJC it, as the landing lag from using it in the air is kept to a minimal compared to standing. DJC PK Freeze can create a much needed wall between you and your opponent. It also easily can create an opening upon landing. Lucas also shines with the best DACUS in P:M, allowing him to freeze his opponent and strike with some of the fastest speed and strength.
Lucas's best special, however, is the Psi Magnet. I'm sure some dub it as his shine, but it's fair to keep it unique from the shines. Psi Magnet can be canceled with a jump, allowing Lucas to JC Grab, or JC Usmash. It can also be wavebounced (b-sticking.) A properly landed psi magnet will easily knock down your opponent and open them up for a tech chase or jab reset into OU smash (or whatever you want.) Psi Magnet is also your recovery buddy. You can use it to slow your air momentum and hover for a short moment. I've also found that it wavebouncing it in the air while you're recovering produces an interesting effect that maybe can help you recover.
Last, but not least, the pk thunder. It is our recovery. Nuff' said.
There's a lot to write about Lucas. I feel like we could organize some sort of guide to help new Lucas mains, especially since this is just a cluttered, jumbled mess of stuff I wanted to write down. Lucas has a lot of potential and I'm sure some of my thoughts could help start a discussion and prompt some questions
cannedbread
Smash Lord
i love lucas as a character and i really love mother but i somewhat dislike his design and i feel like he has to do a lot more work to do the same thing everyone else does more effectively
what do
what do
Oh yeah the way I use the PSI magnet is not to sit there and absorb lasers. If falco is being campy or I am at the right spacing while he's doing his laser thing I jump kinda close to him so that I'm slightly above where he'd normally want to laser and so that I'm pretty close but just out of range of his fsmash. It is pressure, he could try to jump and ariel but i'm alittle to far away and can wavedash away so I could possibly punish him. lasering is silly at that range cause I can wavedash out and dash attack or something. He can retreit which resets everything. Its gimmicky though, i started using it more and yeah, they just run away, then i get frustrated and mess up the spacing. So yeah its not very viable other than a gimmick and a very occasional mix up.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I think Lucas is a character with very flexible combo options and excellent kill moves. Fishing for combo starters is tough, but long combos that end in a kill are quite possible and he has a variety of ways to do it. I also feel like it has yet to be proven to me that he has any truly terrible or unwinnable match-ups.
Little Nemo
The Dream Master
Lucas's attacks flow so nicely.
His throws are great, too.
I have a question. Let's say you're facing left. If you dj and press to the left half way through your second jump, then right at the end. Does that give you a slight verticle boost? A perfectly timed jump Is just barely unable to reach the top platform on Hyrule Castle. But doing the mentioned allows you to land.
Am I right or just crazy? I do it as Ness too. In Melee and 64. It isn't enough to matter but it's still interesting if it gives you a boost.
His throws are great, too.
I have a question. Let's say you're facing left. If you dj and press to the left half way through your second jump, then right at the end. Does that give you a slight verticle boost? A perfectly timed jump Is just barely unable to reach the top platform on Hyrule Castle. But doing the mentioned allows you to land.
Am I right or just crazy? I do it as Ness too. In Melee and 64. It isn't enough to matter but it's still interesting if it gives you a boost.
himemiya
Smash Lord
Is it me or did pmbr made lucas dacus harder to pull off?
Sartron
Smash Journeyman
The new engine modifications may have thrown your timing off a bit. I think you just need to adjust, his DACUS is still fine to me.
Master WGS
Smash Lord
They tightened the timing because it was needlessly easy before.
himemiya
Smash Lord
Are you kidding me? pmbr knows how to troll.
Latch
Smash Apprentice
Don't get me started on his grab and dash grab in 2.5. Miss grab = 9001 frames of lag.
What do you mean by "a lot more work", like techskill-wise or combo-string-wise? I disagree either way though, my techskill is booty and I still manage to pull off deliciously rewarding combos.
LockableFaceman, I've never noticed that but I'll try it out in a few days when I'm back home with P:M access.
Himemiya, the DACUS timing was reduced a bit as Master WGS said, but it's not by much. Just keep practicing, if you were able to do the old DACUS you should be able to get used to the new timing before too long.
Latch, simple solution: don't miss grabs
I honestly don't feel like the cooldown is undeservedly long for a character that can combo into grab, scare people into shielding a lot, and stay safe with the option to pivot grab.
Master WGS
Smash Lord
Not to mention his grab is active for a hell of a long time. You SHOULD get punished for missing because you clearly screwed up if you did.
Master WGS
Smash Lord
It seems bad at first, but then you realize it can't be spot-dodged because it's active longer than anyone's spot-dodge.
Decent trade off, imo.
Decent trade off, imo.
xKobayashi
Smash Apprentice
has anyone noticed that lucas feels slower or clunkier in 2.5? maybe its just the input lag fix but i felt ALOT faster wave dashing around in 2.1
Master WGS
Smash Lord
I honestly feel the exact opposite.
That's weird... I believe his jumpsquat was reduced two frames (possibly from the input delay lag), so wavedashing shouldn't feel slower :x unless you're referring to distance traveled, but idk if that changed.
i just played 2.5 lucas for like 6 hours today. it was also like the 1st time i ever sat down to play ANY project M for an extended period of time. I decided im gonna main Lucas, he feels like a slipperier lighter falco to me.
edit: this post seems pretty bland so i'll add what i liked and dislike about him.
liked:
down b :D awesome move, combo starter potential, can be jc'd, and can be.. multshined? (no idea if theres any value in that, but it was fun to just do in between stocks etc)
fair- pretty sweet combo move, kinda does it all like someone mentioned before can be used to ken combo into dair, although many of my "ken combos" today didnt result in deaths, my opponent would usually recover first, and then i'd hit them with pkt2 upon recovering myself..
nair- pretty awesome for building up %'s and i also liked to use it after landing a down b. otherwise i tended to use it mostly to just fly out at my oppnents and intercept while they were recovering.
usmash- holy hell. reaches platforms (i even got a kill off the top platform of YS while standing in the bottom center!?) SUPER strong kill move.
disliked:
zair- until now i've ALWAYS djc'd ALL of my characters with Y+Y+Z (yoshi, m2, ness) and now i can't do that, i just do the stupid big upward movement zair. ugh.
grab- dislike tether grabs, personal preference i guess. i see ppl in above post stating that it last longer then spot dodges which i guess is cool. but i still dislike tether grabs :/
dair- basically because most of my "ken combos" didn't really result in deaths. wasnt really paying attention if its meteor cancelable? or if its just that weak. also just kinda felt like a janky move to me in general, gotta get used to it probably.
uair- idk seemed pretty weak from what i remember, maybe you can juggle a heavy character with it? idk
edit: this post seems pretty bland so i'll add what i liked and dislike about him.
liked:
down b :D awesome move, combo starter potential, can be jc'd, and can be.. multshined? (no idea if theres any value in that, but it was fun to just do in between stocks etc)
fair- pretty sweet combo move, kinda does it all like someone mentioned before can be used to ken combo into dair, although many of my "ken combos" today didnt result in deaths, my opponent would usually recover first, and then i'd hit them with pkt2 upon recovering myself..
nair- pretty awesome for building up %'s and i also liked to use it after landing a down b. otherwise i tended to use it mostly to just fly out at my oppnents and intercept while they were recovering.
usmash- holy hell. reaches platforms (i even got a kill off the top platform of YS while standing in the bottom center!?) SUPER strong kill move.
disliked:
zair- until now i've ALWAYS djc'd ALL of my characters with Y+Y+Z (yoshi, m2, ness) and now i can't do that, i just do the stupid big upward movement zair. ugh.
grab- dislike tether grabs, personal preference i guess. i see ppl in above post stating that it last longer then spot dodges which i guess is cool. but i still dislike tether grabs :/
dair- basically because most of my "ken combos" didn't really result in deaths. wasnt really paying attention if its meteor cancelable? or if its just that weak. also just kinda felt like a janky move to me in general, gotta get used to it probably.
uair- idk seemed pretty weak from what i remember, maybe you can juggle a heavy character with it? idk
Master WGS
Smash Lord
Those disllikes will become likes, because those are all super strong things. Your dislikes will become "is too good."
Dron
Smash Apprentice
DJC'd up-air chains can be really powerful against fast fallers/huge characters at certain percents
im probably just not used to doing them yet because of years of using my other method (yyz) so i worked around it and did different things instead of toying around with them more.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I use Y, Up on directional stick, c stick to djc. Maybe you'll like this method.
Dron
Smash Apprentice
FightAdamantEevee
Smash Lord
I use Lucas too, can I be a member of this honorary discussion thread
Sartron
Smash Journeyman
Yeah, his dair is actually quite bad. I'm really curious to see if they've made it good in 2.5 yet, I've hardly used it. Can anyone confirm if it's the strong version of it has been converted into a spike?
You can juggle a lot of people with sh uairs or just djc uairs. dthrow is a great startup for uair combos.
