Lucas General Discussion

[TemPesT-]

i enjoyed going for down b wavedash back and upsmash, or jab reset them then upsmash

 

[SpiderMad]

Did they seriously make his DACUS harder just for the sake of making it harder?

 

[GHNeko]

Is that a problem? You're playing a game where you have to master an arbitrary input and turn it into muscle memory just for the sake of reducing your aerial's landing lag, and there is rarely, if ever, a reason not to do such a thing, and the only thing this input actually does is just make the game harder lol.

 

[SpiderMad]

It kind of is

 

[Burnsy]

How many frames is the window for Luca's DACUS currently when inputting via the c-stick+Zgrab method? Just curious, I don't disagree with the change.

Also, does that DACUS window open up on frame 1 of his dash attack, or is there a delay? Without practice I can get his new DACUS maybe 7/10 of the time, but I still feel that I have to delay my up smash by a few frames (in 2.1 as well). I guess it could be that as I rush to get my smash out instantly I am somehow screwing up my execution.

 

[Master WGS]

SpiderMad, it's still not actually hard (I can do it, and I'm terrible at video games), so quit complaining.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Is that a problem? You're playing a game where you have to master an arbitrary input and turn it into muscle memory just for the sake of reducing your aerial's landing lag, and there is rarely, if ever, a reason not to do such a thing, and the only thing this input actually does is just make the game harder lol.

Oh boy
Here we go again...

 

[Master WGS]

Change of topics -

Why do people think Lucas' recovery is bad? Do they not know the glory that is PSI Magnet? Or air-dodge into tether?

 

[Ishiey]

Change of topics, yes, brilliant idea!

I think Lucas' recovery is bad because the only consistent practice partner I have mains Link. And when we're offstage, Link only needs to land one nair to ruin our day. It outlasts AD, leaves him with very little endlag if he misses for a followup dj nair, and outprioritizes our upB / magnet. Otherwise our recovery is pretty good, I guess. OH also Fox, where I tether the ledge and then decide when to reel in and get shined to my death on reaction.


Loosely related to a post from the previous page: FH double uair is great. People should use it more when they're too lazy to exercise techskill imo.

 

[Master WGS]

Those two situations are rough, but if you recover low enough with PKT2, doesn't that make things a lot tougher for Link? Fox is a LOT tougher to work around, but hey - I support Fox changes, so I kinda exclude him from a lot of my musings. He wrecks our return trip a lot, but we can also make his life miserable since he's a fast-faller.


And yes, the majesty that is FH 2xUair is pretty sweet.

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

Idk I think his recovery's bad because I'm so used to him in Brawl. They took out Zap Jump, Magnet Pull, and his PKT2 doesn't go nearly as far and it's way easier to hit him out of it. The only good thing he got recovery wise was AD into Zair. Correct me if I'm wrong?

 

[Ishiey]

Not really :x I'll try pushing my limits with that next time we play eachother though. With both of those characters, it becomes a matter of baiting them out early enough to recover safely around it, but they can just wait and gimp us on reaction :/

On the topic of Fox getting combo'd, I'm terrible at comboing him... all of my typical combo starters are all too weak so Fox ends up back on the ground before I can follow up. And grabbing Fox is kind of ridiculously hard, so I can't even get started with uthrow ;__; I end up reverting to more of a chip and edgeguard game, except Fox outdoes us in both respects so it doesn't work out too well. How does everyone set up their massive combos on Fox?


FH uair can combo into falling/dj bair at KO %s. It's quite tasty.

 

[Master WGS]

I haven't played Fox in a while, so this might not actually work, but I feel like I did uthrow, carry back down with nair, magnet, wd, bair with pretty good results. Uair/utilt juggles when percents allowed as well.

 

[Ishiey]

But how do you land a grab on Fox

 

[Master WGS]

Ice Ice Baby

 

[Magus420]

His boost smash was so easy previously because he was given a jump startup slower than brawl Snake then like tripled in speed during the squat frames so he would have around an 8 frame window for it or something completely unnecessary. This method also made his jump start time not change when super/poison mushroomed (not really important but still). It is now a 2 frame window iirc, which is able to be done consistently without being several times larger a window than anyone else's in the game. It should not have been an 8 frame window in the first place.

 

[Ishiey]

Word

Spoiler

to your mother

I honestly can barely hit Fox with PKF though, he moves like lightning and just hops over with a nair X_x His fast fall speed makes it harder to combo off of PKF as well, since I usually camp with SH PKF from afar.

This probably sounds like lots of johning, I guess I just need more practice in the MU :/

 

[Master WGS]

Well, to be fair I don't have a ton of experience in the matchup, so it might not work as well as I remember/think.

Hopefully I can pull my younger brother off of his girlfriend long enough to play this and many other matchups for more info.

 

[Ishiey]

Speaking of MU practice, is anyone here going to APEX? :3

 

[Sartron]

Lucas has a partly bad recovery because his head pops out when he tethers. The entire cast can dtilt us our of our tether. Our PK Thunder recover can be jabbed out of and provides minimal knockback to opponents, making it even easier for our recovery to be interrupted.

 

[Ishiey]

^ this stuff too. The head popping up is especially irritating, because just tethering to the ledge doesn't restore our double jump :/

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

Speaking of MU practice, is anyone here going to APEX? :3

I ammmmmmmm.

Friendlies?!?!?!

 

[TemPesT-]

what do you guys think his best options from the ledge are?

i recall getting a few gimps using waveland from edge into immediate down b for a few ridiculous gimps, but the hitbox on it seems kinda unreliable sometimes.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

Any suggestions on DACUS? I've been using :stick6:stick2::stick8::zbutton: but all I get is a running grab or sometimes a dash attack. What's off with my timing?

 

[Magus420]

When you get a dash grab it means you would have gotten the boost smash off had you used Attack instead of Grab.

 

[Ishiey]

Sure thing FAE :D I'll probably be around P:M for a good chunk of the last day, depending on how far I make it in the tournament of course.

@ Options from ledge, man I wish I knew :x downB can be weird like you said, so I usually go with drop > dj > fair / AD zair or something. It's not the best, I really need to explore his ledge options more. You can also sit and stall with upB until they back off, I guess. Curious as to what other people have to say on this.

 

[Burnsy]

Looking for another boost smash clarification, I asked this a few pages back:

So assuming perfect execution, you would jump cancel on frame 1 of the dash attack, and then up-smash on the 1st frame of the jump squat? I feel that I have to delay my actions after the dash attack by a little bit but this may just be sloppy execution when I try to go fast.

I'd rather know precisely when it's possible so I can try to train my muscle memory to go for the first possible frame rather than being late and barely getting it when I do.

On the recovery topic:

I usually go with drop > dj > fair / AD zair or something.

As far as ledgehop attacks go, I think these are your best bet. I use them as well, with AD zair being a nice if slightly unsafe way of mixing up. AD z-air becomes a safer option against characters who like to jump aerials in at you when you recover.

I've wondered if in some matches where reeling in is very risky, if it may be viable to tether grab -> press down to drop -> sweetspot with PKT2 from below? Obviously this would be a really bad option against item users, but it might be a decent mix-up on an opponent who would try to gimp your snake on-stage but would try to go off-stage against your up-B. Could this work? I'd like to hear your guys thoughts.

Also, is there any possible way to cancel a reel in once you have started it?

 

[Magus420]

You aren't actually going into jump when doing it, the window is just based on the jump startup attribute. This should explain the timings of how it works:

As for why attack is better to use than grab, the boost grab window is 3 frames. The earliest boost smash can be input is frame 3 (frame 1 inputting attack to do dash attack, frame 2 releasing attack, frame 3 inputting u-smash), and ends 1 frame before the length of their jump startup attribute (you're not actually jumping; it's just what the input window variable uses). When you try to boost smash on frame 3 using grab button you'll get a boost grab instead, but using attack button you'll boost smash. Frames 4+ will work with either button. Using attack instead of grab is the only way to boost smash with 4 frame jumpers (works on frame 3 with attack), and 5 jumpers you're doubling the input window by using attack instead of grab (3-4 with attack vs 4 with grab).

http://www.smashmods.com/forum/thread-4913-post-103706.html#pid103706

So you're inputting dash attack on frame 1, frame 2 releasing attack (c-stick only inputs for 1 frame), then u-smashing as early as 3 if using attack or 4 if using grab.

 

[Burnsy]

Thanks for the helpful info, Magus. I'll continue working on it. I'm a little reluctant to switch up my control scheme, but wow, setting Z to attack really helps a lot with getting my consistency closer to 100%.
Does anyone else use a shoulder button to grab? Any downsides to doing this?

I've wondered if in some matches where reeling in is very risky, if it may be viable to tether grab -> press down to drop -> sweetspot with PKT2 from below?

Also, is there any possible way to cancel a reel in once you have started it?

Screw these things I said before, I've found something better:

1. Grab the ledge with snake (lets assume you have to grab it from really far away).
2. Immediately tap down to tether drop
3. Fall the appropriate height to airdodge up to barely come within the ledge's sweetspot range
4. Grab ledge with snake again
5. Immediately tap down again and then hold right

As long as you are within sweetspot range, he go from hanging to immediately snapping to the ledge. And his precious little noggin never even has to poke over it.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Why isn't Lucas as cool as Ness? Like, even remotely close?

What are you talking about, Lucas shoots ice.

I lol'd ****ing hard.

Also, I don't know why people are complaining about Lucas's DACUS. It is really easy to do. Out of the 11 characters (currently) that can DACUS, Ganondorf's is the only one that is a little strict in the timing. I set my R button to Attack specifically for using DACUS, since I use L to roll/shield/tech/etc.

 

[Master WGS]

I think Wolf and Marth's are way harder than Ganondorf's. I can do Ganondorf's, and I've never been able to get Wolf/Marth to work.

Anyway, I won't be going to APEX. Too far for an invitational, even if I'd get a ton of friendlies in. Gonna try to make it to SCSYN, though.

 

[JediKnightTemplar]

When you get a dash grab it means you would have gotten the boost smash off had you used Attack instead of Grab.

Alright, I started doing :stick6:stick2::stick8::abutton: instead and I got what I thought was the timing, but it only seems to go about 1/5 of FD and seemed to look more like a running Usmash than a DACUS. Any suggestions?

 

[Magus420]

If you u-smashed and didn't get it you pressed up+A too soon. Try pressing the c-stick faster or delaying the up+A a bit.


I'm also unwilling to change my controls since I use every button in melee depending on the situation. To boost smash though I move my finger down from Z to A temporarily and c-stick -> up+A. Probably weird at first, but it's something I've done on the fly for years for Y + c-stick stuff like floating backwards and c-stick f-airing with Peach, or FJ full backwards while c-sticking a knee off u-throw immediately as he leaves the ground.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Alright, I started doing :stick6:stick2::stick8::abutton: instead and I got what I thought was the timing, but it only seems to go about 1/5 of FD and seemed to look more like a running Usmash than a DACUS. Any suggestions?

Okay, I went and tested 4 character's DACUSes. For all DACUSes, you need to preform them in quick succession, but some require more of a "pause" between controller inputs than others. Here are my findings:


- Lucas: This one is the easiest to do. All you have to do is allow a 1 frame "pause" in between each of the controller inputs. So it is like this: :stick6: (wait 1 frame) stick2: :stick8: (wait 1 frame) :abutton:

^Note that there is no pause when going from C Stick Down to Control Stick Up.


- Marth: This one is also easy. Unlike Lucas, there are no pauses. From a standing position, immediately do the combination as quickly as you can: :stick6:stick2::stick8::abutton:


- Wolf: You have to wait for a bit in order to use Wolf's DACUS. The timing is in his left foot. After dashing forward, wait until his left foot touches the ground. When it does, then proceed to DACUS as you would with Marth (no pauses):
:stick6: (wait until Wolf's left foot touches the ground) stick2::stick8::abutton:


- Ganon: The trickiest character to DACUS with...for me, anyways. It is similar to Wolf's, but the timing is in between Wolf's and Marth's. Instead of watching his feet, watch his head. After dashing forward, when his head dips down to the lowest point during the animation, then DACUS as you would with Marth or Wolf:
:stick6: (wait until his head dips down to the lowest point) stick2::stick8::abutton:


Thanks to this, I can now DACUS more effectively with Ganon now. lol

 

[TemPesT-]

is there any chance of a hitbox viewer on his down b? it feels tiny

i wanna know how big and how far it goes so i can use it OOS tho if they are in that like grab range, since its just safer/faster.

 

[Burnsy]

Sure, I was looking for a reason to learn hitbubble viewing.

[COLLAPSE="Down-B Repeating Hitbubbles:"]

[/COLLAPSE]
[COLLAPSE="Down-B Release Hitbubbles:"]

[/COLLAPSE]
It isn't that small, especially considering what it can do.

Also, has anyone else tried that tether ledge recovery trick I mentioned in an earlier post? I'm eager to see what you guys think of it. As far as I've seen, no other Lucas' use this trick and I feel like it could be very useful in match-ups that gimp our reel in attempts (Link, Bowser, Ike, etc).

 

[No U]

It is small compared with any of his other moves though, it has less distance than jab even.

And I'm not quite sure exactly what you're suggesting with that tether trick, the last step you say to immediately tap down and hold right, and you'll grab the edge? That'd just make you tether fall to your death though? Or do you mean to airdodge up near/past the edge and then do that, cuz you couldn't airdodge that high if you just tethered from far away.

In any case I just vary my pull up times and try not to be predictable and I don't get hit too often, people have a very specific timing to hit his head and often throw out a move and give him time to reel up. I do have some success with falling and airdodging up and tethering again to mix up timings but I haven't tried zairing supa close to the sweetspot and then falling to grab instead of reeling in like you suggest Burnsy.

Anyways, that being said, I have to throw out that djc uair is way too good with the added hitstun. It chains ridiculously at certain percents, and can now combo into usmash? gg no re

Also, on the topic of comboing fox, I have the most success getting in on him with nairs that lead into techchases (often consisting of further nairs) until he's offstage. My neutral game against him would generally be djc pkfs (and also non djc'd ones a lot against fox in particular since it's nice to have them higher up while he shorthops around), and nairs. If you land either of those it's not too difficult to get a string of hits that does a reasonable percent. I don't use magnet against him too much except to try to shield break, since he falls too fast for it to combo unless he misses a tech from it and you jab reset him.

Also one last question... how many of you people have actually played Mother 3?

Edit: One last other thing. Is it intended that landing OU Dsmash no longer keeps the charge? Or am I missing something, and it does keep the charge but I've only been hitting with one of the parts that doesn't let you keep it, or maybe it doesn't keep it if you hit with the first one and then miss with the 2nd? Basically somebody plz tell me the mechanics on that haha.

 

[GHNeko]

wtf is a mother 3


on a serious note: does anyone think that lucas is capable of shield pressure using multi shines

 

[No U]

I'm not sure why you'd do that when you can just drop the magnet on a shield and let it sit much easier. Not too flashy, but oh the shields I've broken.

Also, does anybody else like to use pkf to quickly djc onto the stage from hanging on the edge? I feel like it's one of his best ledge options, much faster than wavelanding on or jumping up with risky aerials.

 

[Burnsy]

And I'm not quite sure exactly what you're suggesting with that tether trick, the last step you say to immediately tap down and hold right, and you'll grab the edge? That'd just make you tether fall to your death though? Or do you mean to airdodge up near/past the edge and then do that, cuz you couldn't airdodge that high if you just tethered from far away.

I rewrote my instructions, maybe they'll be more clear. If you are max distance you probably don't want Lucas to drop very far if at all before you airdodge up, so you need to be fast. You can get within sweetspot range from underneath tho and still stay surprisingly far below the stage imo. When you tether drop (2nd time) within sweetspot range, you are really just putting yourself in a neutral air state, meaning you can immediately snap to the sweetspot without falling. Just play around with the spacing and execution a bit, but it seems like it can be done pretty safely. More safely than waiting around to get spiked off your tether while you mess around with reel in timings.

1. You tether out of sweetspot range (no jumps left)
2. Press down to drop.
3. Airdodge up into sweetspot range.
4. Cancel Airdoge with another tether.
5. Tap down to drop (needs to be a quick flick, otherwise you may drop past)
6. Lucas will let go of the snake, but before he goes anywhere, he will sweetspot to the edge.

You can practice it slow, but these actions can all be done very quickly and Lucas never has to use a jump or expose his head over the top. Try staying as low as possible with the sweetspot.

This could also be useful way dodge them if they try to offstage gimp you while you are tethered.

Also one last question... how many of you people have actually played Mother 3?

I've beaten it twice. It's one of my favorite games.