Lucas General Discussion

[Burnsy]

Down-B? More like PK Shine

I love the PK Shine. It's how Lucas starts his swag. The hitstun lasts a long time too, which gives him a good amount of flexibility with his followup.

I also want to mention that I too am a strong advocate of d-tilt. It usually can extend your combo if you are range, and it's hitboxes are out on the 3rd frame. At mid %s, I use it to shield poke or to lead into jab reset. You don't want them to CC it at low or mid %s though. Around mid to high %s it obviously leads to more smashes or tech reads.

You always have to be concerned about it being shielded though, since it's has a pretty slow recovery.

 

[Dron]

And Ishieymoro I do tend to agree that all of you are terrible. None of you guys djcpkf into DACUS anywhere near enough, among a number of other things. A lot of you seem to underestimate nairspamming across the stage, you can rack up like 50% against most of the cast just doing that, and the only real defense I've discovered is spacies ccing it at low percents into shine, but that only works up until like 30% and they just get combo'd hard after that.

I've been working on implementing the PKF into DACUS recently with good results, they work in conjunction with each other really well

I can see it being a pretty reliable finisher in a lot of cases

I just wish I could play people more often and get more practice, computers really don't cut it

 

[GHNeko]

ill have milkman vids up when im not being lazy.

he has little knowledge of lucas tech but his normals usage is so damn good.

 

[Ishiey]

Tech skill is for *****es (not really though).

Dtilt combos into itself (kinda like Zelda's dtilt in Brawl) and Melee players aren't used to that so sometimes they don't DI away and I laugh as I get dtilt x7 > jab reset > fsmash.

DJC PKF is overrated. Only time it's clearly better than PKF sometime during a regular SH is when dropping through a platform imo.

EDIT: From the recently-released change list:
[collapse=Lucas]-Lucas' Cliff Jump height slightly reduced
-Lucas' Air Jump animations cleaned up
-Lucas' Boost Smash window adjusted to be more appropriate for his jump speed
-Lucas' Forward Smash angled up does slightly more damage while angled down does slightly less
-Lucas' Down Smash is two parts just like Link's Forward Smash
-Lucas' Neutral Air now uses weight dependent set knockback on linking hits and is slightly more SDIable
-Lucas' Forward Air has normal hitlag
-Lucas' Back Air now uses the new Light element effect
-Lucas' Up Air has normal hitlag, and now has a sweetspot that uses the new Light element effect
-Lucas' Grab animations edited to not look as awkward
-Lucas' Tether no longer has a hitbox attached to it when it is grabbing the ledge
-Lucas' PK Thunder no longer dies when entering the side blastzones, and does not clip stages as easily
-Lucas' PK Thunder no longer dies when Lucas is hit, and instead becomes unfriendly towards any player and continuing in the same direction before he got hit
-Lucas' PKT2 ending is not as short and is able to grab the edge backwards
-Lucas' PK Freeze has less hitlag and is now SDIable
-Lucas' Down B has an actual start up animation, allowing reversals, but the hit and jump cancel timings remain the same as before[/collapse]
Nothing on bair being faster.

 

[Oracle]

DJC pkf is better than sh pkf 100% of the time because the projectile comes out at almost the same time, but it hits lower and you can act earlier, making it easier to follow up or run away or w/e. Plus lots of characters can just duck sh pkf because it hits so high

 

[Ishiey]

You don't need to PKF the instant you SH. There's not a huge difference in the time for a delayed PKF out of a SH and DJC PKF, and they'll both hit the same area. With the SH you can also throw one out higher up so that you catch SH approaches. If you really need the extra speed for a low PKF to continue a combo, yeah, DJC PKF is useful, but I honestly don't see much to gain when camping with it or trying to start a combo with it.

 

[Oracle]

SH pkf is significantly more vulnerable due to the extra time spent in the air waiting for the correct timing. In addition, you can control what direction you go by double jump canceling, i.e. sh in>dj back>pkf for baits and such.

 

[Ishiey]

The baiting part is valid. Idk, perhaps I don't see as much value in it since whenever I PKF I try to make sure I'm near max range, making the extra vulnerability a non-issue. Also, it's plausible that I'm just too lazy to bother with an extra input for such a small reward (when concerning my current PKF game)

 

[Oracle]

Its just better in every way. There is no reason not to djc if you're going to throw a pkf

 

[Burnsy]

Its just better in every way. There is no reason not to djc if you're going to throw a pkf

I agree with this for Lucas' ground game, with one exception.

If you know the first djc pkf will hit, you can follow-up with a sh pkf and end up right next to them for a lot of possible follow-ups. But if you djc'd the 2nd freeze I think you'll lose too much horizontal momentum and won't land close enough for the same follow-ups.

Also, here's another pkf hit confirm I like to use:

djc freeze -> airdodge towards -> z-air -> Side smash/ Up smash

Z-air can be really helpful for a lot of match-ups. Just make sure you are close to the ground when you land it, and get them in the air or off a juggle so they can't CC it. Take the combo above and instead of doing a smash, you can also go into nair to start typical Lucas combo/techchase shenanigans.

 

[Dron]

had a friend over and we played a good bit of PM and I found myself using a lot of zair even though historically I've never really tried utilizing it, but it definitely seems useful for ground mixups

I've even found myself airdodging behind him if I'm faced away and doing those sick mindgamez

I should have some matches up in the other thread tonight

 

[Ishiey]

Also, here's another pkf hit confirm I like to use:

djc freeze -> airdodge towards -> z-air -> Side smash/ Up smash

Z-air can be really helpful for a lot of match-ups. Just make sure you are close to the ground when you land it, and get them in the air or off a juggle so they can't CC it. Take the combo above and instead of doing a smash, you can also go into nair to start typical Lucas combo/techchase shenanigans.

Thisthisthisthisthisthis.

So good. Zair into grab works at lower %s, usmash/fsmash can combo around kill %s, bair also works when they pop up too high for usmash. It's delicious.

 

[Burnsy]

Thisthisthisthisthisthis.

So good. Zair into grab works at lower %s, usmash/fsmash can combo around kill %s, bair also works when they pop up too high for usmash. It's delicious.

It also has a nice arc and pretty solid range, which is helpful in stuffing air approaches since its a disjointed hitbox. And on top of that, it has a lot of spacing flexibility due to air-dodge mechanics.

Also I'm going to give djc PKF->z-air->grab a try, Ishieymoro. I do 'pkf-> grab' and 'z-air->grab' all the time but somehow I never do them together, lol.
That would mean scoring a grab off a max distance pkf, right?

Lucas 2 gud.

 

[No U]

djcpkf is almost always superior mostly because it gives you more frames to react and at a maximum level of play, every frame counts. regular short hop pkf definitely has its times but I feel it's only about 25% of the time for the higher spacing or once they get used to dodging the djc'dpkf, the timing of it being just a little later but still near the ground can throw them off. and the safety of not being able to get hit right out of your djc and getting put in a really bad spot is nice too.

Also I approve of all use of zair and have been vaguely trying to incorporate it more. Pretty much every time I use it, I use it on accident (except when I'm pulling a surprise airdodge snake), but then it still connects from some miracle distance and allows me to set up a techchase or something. It really does have some killer range.

 

[Burnsy]

I'm working on getting resources together for a hitbox/frame data thread and I wanted to share Z-air since we've been talking about it's usefulness so much.

[COLLAPSE="Z-air"]

[/COLLAPSE]
This shows the active frames 8-11 layered over one another.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Remember that it interpolates between frames. What looks like a blind spot is actually covered during what I think is frame 9.

 

[Ishiey]

Hype. A frame data / hitbox thread would be awesome

Zair is silly.

 

[Burnsy]

Remember that it interpolates between frames. What looks like a blind spot is actually covered during what I think is frame 9.

Ah, good. I thought that was the case but I wasn't sure. I'm glad you said that.

 

[specialkyo]

Anyone wanna discuss the utility for neutral B's "push" effect? All you do is press B instead of holding it. It generates an aura and pushes the opponent away. I don't know the frame data on it or how the "push box" even works. What I do know is it works for grounded, standing, and airborne opponents. Also, if you have this move fully charged it pushes the player a slightly longer distance than the uncharged version.

I can think of only a few situations where it would work. But here are 2 examples of me getting it to work on wifi matches with some players. (It's Wifi.. but it still might work in RL)

I actually succeeded in using it to punish a player. I gave them a short hopped dair to the face near the ground and as soon as I could I used the force to push them away. They used a get up attack thinking they were going to get a free hit on me and send me away from their happy zone. I then f smashed them for a stock and took their happy zone to the toilet and flushed it.

Another time I was standing near the ledge on the inside of the stage as the opponent was closer to the edge. He was Marth and he started approaching me. He short hopped and I force pushed him. He was close enough to the edge that it actually pushed him off. In the mean time he was trying to nair me. This caused him to drop pretty far and I was able to edge guard him.

Has anyone else thought of implementing this sort of trickery into their game play as well? Also if anyone wants to try this out on wifi I hang on dabessdi as well. Lemme know and we can theory craft some more Lucas shenanigans.

 

[Sartron]

If Jiggs misses a rest near the ledge you can use the special to push her off. It's pretty funny.

 

[Dron]

If Jiggs misses a rest near the ledge you can use the special to push her off. It's pretty funny.

genius

I don't see it being particularly useful other than that though unless you just get a really lucky read

 

[Burnsy]

Neutral-B's wind could be a really demoralizing way of killing a Luigi that goes past his sweetspot with up-b, but a forward/down smash or djc dair will get that kill just the same, and works on more characters. Similarly, I think you will have difficulty finding situations where neutral-b is a better option than anything else. If you know the wind will kill though, might as well go for the swag.

I'd love to be proven wrong, it'd be great if it has some hidden utility that could cover a hole in his game.

 

[DahNade]

yea me and my buddy were testing some stuff out with fox recoveries and it seems to have a really good use when he uses his up-b and if you get the right angle it will push him far enough a way so that he cant grab the ledge, its pretty snazzy

here is a link to the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rt52HOq9PdQ&feature=youtu.be

 

[Burnsy]

Great video DahNade, quite interesting.

I'll be testing this out on different recoveries in friendlies, I'll let you guys know the results.

 

[Ishiey]

That... is awesome. Definitely gotta practice gimping with the windbox asap, good find

Does the windbox stretch out far enough to cover Fox angling his upB 1/16th of a rotation up if you're expecting a directly horizontal recovery?

 

[RaynEX]

That's amazing. That neutral B stuff is a great addition to the compendium of tricks he has!

I've been experimenting with JC down B xN (trying to "multishine basically) and also using down+B JC grab during pressure. I feel inspired to create a video detailing Lucas tech now.

 

[specialkyo]

Everyone needs to start testing this. I've already used this to succeed in killing a few opponents.

The newest one I pulled off was when an opponent was shielding near the edge. I pushed him off with b and it forced him down and he grabbed the ledge. I chose down smash to smack him off the ledge because he was trying to hurry off of it.

I found it more useful to pull off when opponents are either in shield or when lying on the ground. I will mess around with this up b gimping I saw in that video.

I'm going to try to get some matches recorded with examples and other utilities of neutral b. I have to do it wifi style though..

 

[DahNade]

That... is awesome. Definitely gotta practice gimping with the windbox asap, good find

Does the windbox stretch out far enough to cover Fox angling his upB 1/16th of a rotation up if you're expecting a directly horizontal recovery?

yea it can work really well, im not sure if it can do the 1/16 angle but i would assume so because I tested alot of different firefox angles

 

[Moderate skill]

Sorry if this is common knowledge or w/e, but has anyone noticed how you can tether out of airdodge? In addition to recovery, you can really get really tricksy with this.

 

[Master WGS]

That is common knowledge, but few people do it effectively from what I've noticed. Heck, there are plenty of times it's probably slipped my mind when it would've come in handy.

Also, relatively off-topic, but Calabrel and I will likely be attending the same tournament in the two weeks. Hopefully we represent Lucas well, and I hope we can teach each other a thing or two about our beloved child should we meet up in the bracket. DEFINITELY gonna get some friendlies in with you, at the very least.

 

[Burnsy]

Sorry if this is common knowledge or w/e, but has anyone noticed how you can tether out of airdodge? In addition to recovery, you can really get really tricksy with this.

You can use this for a lot of things, it's awesome to space with and can help you to extend juggles, since the airdodge places you close to them while keeping them in the air for your next follow up. I use airdodge-snake probably a bit more than I should, just to help me learn all the possible situations I can use it. As a good sized disjoint, smart use of this move will be key in certain match-ups in my opinion. Just don't let it be crouch cancelled, you'll eat a bad punish.

If you haven't seen it already, there's a nice little bit of z-air discussion towards the end of page 9. My favorite use is as a follow-up to max distance aerial PKF, since it can lead into almost his entire moveset.

 

[No U]

That's an awesome video of the neutral B pushback utility. It's gotta be even more brutal against falco haha. I'm glad something I suggested made it into 2.5 :D

I still don't honestly see myself using it but I'll at least test it a bit for swag ofc.

 

[specialkyo]

Don't use it just to edge guard against players recovering with upb. Use it to push back a player knocked on the ground. If they are near the ledge they have no where to go but toward you or stay in the same position. It takes away an escape route. Or if they are near the ledge and are in a shield. It pushes them right over and you can edge guard from there.

The neutral b has so much more utility than what the video is showing. I wanted to get some videos up but my recording set up is being lame on me. Once I get some footage I will post it. It is far more useful than many think.

 

[DahNade]

That's an awesome video of the neutral B pushback utility. It's gotta be even more brutal against falco haha. I'm glad something I suggested made it into 2.5 :D

I still don't honestly see myself using it but I'll at least test it a bit for swag ofc.

yea so far all i know it to do somewhat usefully is just for a little bit of swag haha... but im sure there are many things you can do to maybe limit some options with it, but the lag on it is so long im not sure that it could always be the best thing to do

 

[WIDL]

Hey y'all. What do you think is Lucas biggest weaknesses and vice versa? I have this friend who mains Lucas that keeps telling me that Lucas is the best character ever, probably top top top tier (top percentage of Lucas yo), but I'm having a hard time seeing that. I think Lucas is pretty good, I can play Lucas, but...

 

[Dron]

his biggest weakness is definitely his ability to be combo'd like crazy, and also his lack of range on most of his abilities

on the other hand he has a really diverse and kooky combo game himself, and a great projectile which lets him approach as long as it's not being overrun by other projectiles that come out more quickly (like Mario fireballs or Falco lasers)

chances are he's not going to be "top top top tier" (hopefully none of the cast will be) but he can style super hard, especially on fast fallers and the big boys

 

[DahNade]

Hey y'all. What do you think is Lucas biggest weaknesses and vice versa? I have this friend who mains Lucas that keeps telling me that Lucas is the best character ever, probably top top top tier (top percentage of Lucas yo), but I'm having a hard time seeing that. I think Lucas is pretty good, I can play Lucas, but...

I feel like one of his biggest weaknesses is hitting some of his ariels... mostly because of there hitboxes, but you can use his projectiles to counter that and have a bit more time to get a couple hits on whoever, i wouldnt think that lucas could ever be a "top top top" tier character, espically compared to people like fox, falco, etc. but he is a very solid character none the less.

 

[foshio]

That's amazing. That neutral B stuff is a great addition to the compendium of tricks he has!

I've been experimenting with JC down B xN (trying to "multishine basically) and also using down+B JC grab during pressure. I feel inspired to create a video detailing Lucas tech now.

That would be cool, i've never used the multishine (?) to do anything but show off techskill. I've always felt it does not have enough shield stun to be effective.

 

[Burnsy]

I have been screwing around with frame advance stuff with Lucas. The same sort of thing people use to make tool assisted combo videos.

I'd like to correct myself from a few pages back, Lucas' jump start-up still lasts 4 frames as it did in 2.1, not 3 frames. The difference in the code was made to change his boost smash/DACUS window, not the speed of the jump squat itself.

If anyone has any questions about frame data or theoretical maneuvers, I can try to help out.

 

[Badge]

I've been experimenting with Lucas shield pressure via frame advance and am currently working on a little video to entertain and show all the stuff I found out. As that will still take a bit though, I wanted to drop this little shield pressure loop here in advance:

DownB->(JC-1>DownB->DJ->DownB)*X

In frames:
1: Jump
6: DownB
15: DJ
16: DownB
25/1: Jump

This is about the actual Lucas equivalent to Multishine. The DownBs after ground jumps connect 3 frames after the shield stun ended, but that's the only gap in it. Thus: nearly perfect shield pressure. It's a bit hard to perform, but it should be possible with claw grip or custom controls at least.
I don't know if the effort would be worth it in practice, but it looks like a DownB shield hit would turn into a near guaranteed direct hit on most characters, if one was to master this technique.

Also interesting to note is that a NAir used after one iteration hits on the first frame outside of shieldstun and thus catches any OOS option including frame 2 spotdodges.

Btw: the standard Multimagnet (or whatever to call it) looks okay on paper too, with a the next hitbox occuring 5 frames after the end of shieldstun for each DownB. PSI Magnet becomes 3 frames slower when it transitions between air and ground before the hitbox comes out like it does during the obvious Multimagnets, which is the reason the above hits faster even after the ground jumps.


While I'm at it, I can also drop this shield advantage data here. I double checked each of these multiple times, but I still only counted them per hand, so there may be mistakes in there:

Advantage on shield:
PSI Magnet: +7 (into jumpstart)
Sweetspot DJC FAir: -1
Sourspot DJC FAir: -2
DJC DAir: -3
DJC UAir: -3
NAir landing hit: -4
Jab 1: -8 (into crouch)
Jab 2: -17

Frame of the first hitbox:
NAir: 4
Jab 1: 4
FAir: 5
UAir: 5
PSI Magnet: 5
PSI Magnet (aerial->ground transition): 8
DAir: 10

Lucas jumpstart of course being 4 frames and DJCs taking at least one frame. So, a perfect DJC FAir from the ground takes 10 frames until the hitbox comes out. For DAir the DJC has to be delayed by one frame or it hits the ground before the hitbox comes out. Same for UAir if you want the main hitboxes.