Lucas General Discussion

[fZk]

Well, i disagree with being top, or even close to that in the game. He has several very hard match ups in my opinion (mario, marth for example). and a terrible combo weight which is death against gannon and very harmful against strong combo'ers like falcon. He also has a subpar/slow recovery which can be punished quite hard. His combo game is strong but technical and very reactive. This makes for a very technically difficult character, with somewhat unsafe combo options, a bad recovery and punished hard. To get a player winning tournaments will take alot of hard work and a never quit attitude.

This is what I was referring a couple of posts up. I think Lucas has a hard time with characters with good approaches both through the air and ground. Characters that can close the gap quickly and get around his ice can get in and punish him hard, although bigger stages compensate for this. My main gripe is his recovery is painfully slow which sets for easy edgeguards for a lot of the cast, it takes forever to gat back into the stage.

 

[BryE]

Well, i disagree with being top, or even close to that in the game. He has several very hard match ups in my opinion (mario, marth for example). and a terrible combo weight which is death against gannon and very harmful against strong combo'ers like falcon. He also has a subpar/slow recovery which can be punished quite hard. His combo game is strong but technical and very reactive. This makes for a very technically difficult character, with somewhat unsafe combo options, a bad recovery and punished hard. To get a player winning tournaments will take alot of hard work and a never quit attitude.

I've been messing around with Lucas kinda frequently and I kinda have to agree with this.

All of the hard work that I put into him doesn't mean much since he seems to be an unstable character in terms of approaching and getting in on the opponent. Even with his PK Freeze, which has low priority, Lucas' approach game isn't that good. Although, I do have to admit that it really helps to be technical with him since it unlocks another layer of depth for the character.

I also wouldn't really say he has "unsafe" combo options. They are kinda reliable for the most part. (Mainly talking about his Dthrow > Bair)
He also has Fair strings that he can pull off against his opponents that lead into a Dair offstage as well. Or into a DACUS. But perhaps since his approach game isn't too reliable, that sorta makes his combo game "unsafe"?

I'm not sure though. Just throwing out suggestions here.

 

[Burnsy]

Maybe everyone I play sucks at defense (doubtful), but I really feel like approaching is not that difficult for me. Keep in mind that mobility+reach= range. Several characters don't have huge hitboxes with their moves but instead are faster/have more control over how they place them. To me, this is key to approaching with Lucas. Djc allows him to place aerials with more precision than characters who lack it, and short hopped magnet gliding offers a lot of flexibility in spacing and mixing up approaches or even serving as a bait.

If people are shielding your ice, try following it up as soon as possible with a short hopped down-b into shield pressure (djc something, likely). If you aren't able to get in on them then the next best thing should be fishing for the shield pokes, in my opinion

 

[Nausicaa]

Try not to rely on Side-B in the neutral game very much. It's quite silly, and might be something that's holding people back from learning efficiently. History has played its toll with Falco, its' doing it with ZSS (and apparently Wolf/Ness/etc too), so avoid it. It will help you to gravitate away from that. Especially given how easy it is to Power Shield that stuff.
It shouldn't be hard to avoid getting grabbed, especially against Ganon.
There's nothing unsafe about his combos, I'm not even sure what that means though. haha

You have a Shine with range that pulls people in, and a grab that leads to a set of throws that are all useful, one of the fastest ground-based maneuverability dynamics, and quick finishers that are easy to combo into out the yin-yang.
What's so difficult? His tether ledge-grab isn't good enough and Up-B is slow? Haven't developed the experiential dynamics to lead into Bair? The technical fluency needed to control your OWN pace in a match? It's all redundant, by definition.

Don't get hit by things you don't want to get hit by, hit people with the things you want to hit them with.
^ = Smash.
Lucas is great at ^.

You're all being sillypantses, and Down Throw > Bair is boring.
Up Throw > FJ Nair > DJC PK Freeze > re-Grab (Edit: Yes, this makes sense and crap like this actually works. Try it out. lol)
That's more like the Lucas throw-game you should (for fun + optimizing effective stuff) be aiming for.
Screw around more. Lucas isn't cut-and-dry. The character is wacky, like a regular human psycho with a big head. Play that way (big headed human psycho) and you'll have success. Trust me.

 

[Oracle]

Lucas's approaches have very little range and his air mobility isn't that great, so its tough to just go in with approaches. Use PKF more to force your opponent into doing something, then punish. It isn't always going to land, but thats not the point of the move. mix up djc fairs and shine->djd uair on shield with jabs to catch them out of their grabs, or just condition them to shield with your pressure then grab them

 

[Oro?!]

Im curious what your first paragraph means when you bring up wolf/Ness/zss/falco nausicaa?

 

[BryE]

Maybe everyone I play sucks at defense (doubtful), but I really feel like approaching is not that difficult for me. Keep in mind that mobility+reach= range. Several characters don't have huge hitboxes with their moves but instead are faster/have more control over how they place them. To me, this is key to approaching with Lucas. Djc allows him to place aerials with more precision than characters who lack it, and short hopped magnet gliding offers a lot of flexibility in spacing and mixing up approaches or even serving as a bait.

If people are shielding your ice, try following it up as soon as possible with a short hopped down-b into shield pressure (djc something, likely). If you aren't able to get in on them then the next best thing should be fishing for the shield pokes, in my opinion

I normally fight against Fox, Wario, Mario, and Falco with Lucas. So I guess that's why I think Lucas has a hard time approaching. lol

 

[Oracle]

ORO why are you always everywhere I am

 

[Oro?!]

I name search ZSS/unviable/bad/low tier/complete ****. Obv

 

[Naughty Pixel]

What do you guys think about Lucas's bair and dtilt? What do you mainly use these moves for, and if you don't like them what changes to those moves do you think would make them better / more useful in Lucas's gameplay?

I feel like his bair doesn't work well with DJC, which is why I'm not seeing much use of it in my own game. All of lucas' other moves can be used incredibly low to the ground excluding his bair. It's got nice power, poor range, and slow start. All in all I'm not a fan.

 

[Nausicaa]

Im curious what your first paragraph means when you bring up wolf/Ness/zss/falco nausicaa?

I'll title it 'The Falco-Catastrophe'
Essentially, it was the laser-for-no-reason era, the technical era of Melee. Work went into this game on the masses-scale regarding the speed and technical precision of the game, leaving actual mental development in the dust. There was a multi-year span where overpowering opponents by over-playing oneself into technical fluency was basically the determining factor between players. This is what lead to the initial rush of Falco-everywhere, and to this day, there are more nearly-mindless Falco's roaming around than anything else in the community.

I think Cactuar was one of the first well-known players (and one of the first to do private-lesson type things with other players) who used to tell people to play without lasers for at least a while. Too often players (even 'good' players) would trap themselves in a cycle of running into learning-curve walls because they couldn't get passed their systematic play developed primarily around the laser-grab-pillar game.I'm pretty sure I even recently saw Kage (a good Melee Ganon) say something about how he was playing without them for a while and it dramatically improved his game.

The same concept applies to other characters as well. When I did a 1 month, 1 character exclusive thing (over the course of a year, meaning I want an entire year without touching a character again), I played without Jigg's Bair for 2 weeks, without Rest for 2 weeks. By the end of the month, the tools come together and you've actually developed all the dynamics about the character AROUND the already-established-as-functional stuff they have to offer.
My Falco in that same time-frame went from 'can beat most decent players but not really using Falco optimally'' to what was nicknamed a 'toned-down PP' (Falco player who approaches the game a unique study-type way).
All simply because of the way I approach the game. This isn't an exclusive thing that can be labeled like 'everybody is different', it's 100% universal and many people advocate this and practice it well. Really, EVERYBODY is doing it to some extent, I simply try and articulate it in a way that might help people give attention to it.

Work. With. Awareness.

It can be a little deceptively easy to just 'play until you're good' with Smash.
Naturally, this means for characters like Lucas, people will start gravitating to what's safe and easy, knowing certain and currently comfortable, such as PK Freezes.

ZSS, Ness, Wolf, Zelda, (with their projectiles) and even characters that don't have projectiles (Lucario with mashing, any character to some extent with something) all fall to this the same way.
There's no way you'll learn to play WITHOUT your projectile if you're playing in a way that you're relying on it in any way.
Play WITHOUT it, and you'll learn the dynamics of the character. Play WITH it, and you'll naturally miss something.

It also doesn't help that PK Freeze, PK Fire, and ZSS lasers, are the easiest things to Power Shield, like ever. Day 1 and I was consistent. Good Falco's in Melee don't play with lasers as a base, the laser is a mix-up around the actual game-play. A unique tool. At the very MOST, this is what PK Freeze is. There's no way it won't end up that way, so don't rely on things that won't last, as that's exactly where the gimmik-rooted play is resting, and exactly why people are learning Project M WAY slower than they need to.



Change 1 thing, just 1. Every day or every match or every whatever. Go for 1 Grab per Stock for a full match. Only 1, no more than 1, but a minimum of 1. The next match, do something else. Learn the dynamics of your tools by eliminating them from your repertoire. Screw the word 'big', there's a billion other words for it you can use instead. Screw PK Freeze, there's a billion things you can do there instead.
Guaranteed, you just have to look.
Can't look passed a bunch of shattering ice, it's easier when you're not mid-compulsive-action-based-on-unintentionally-conditioned-reaction.

 

[Oro?!]

Yeah I know what you are talking about. I was just more confused by your selections and how the moves related beyond being projectiles. I thought you were referring to usefulness in a character's repertoire.

I did the "no laser Falco" training when I was learning Melee at a slightly higher than basic level. What I'm put off by, is that you label it as mindless. Players who were renowned for their tech skill and execution that thrived like Mango/SW were not brain dead. Every attack was precisely executed and calculated. It definitely was a trap for lower-moderate level players who just tried to imitate without knowing reasons for move selections. If you go and watch Mango videos around the Genesis era where he was known for doing crazy ****, just watch how smart every option he takes is.

Also I didn't think about ZSS lasers when you posted that remark. When I first played ZSS I considered it ****. It is powershieldable, the charge laser takes too long for being so easy to powershield or clank, and the small laser is punishable on hit. While I thought laser was a niche move, the op thing to do was SideB. I spammed the **** out of it. I made people respect it. I thought I could be David Sirlin of ZSS. Side B for days. What happened was people leaned how to deal with it. So I had to learn how to use it differently. Eventually it wasn't reliable and that's when learning really occurred. You have to look from the outside in and evaluate every aspect of a character. I agree that when you take individual options, and single them out by either abuse or neglect, you truly learn what it means to use those moves.

ZSS lasers are also nothing comparable to Falco lasers. Falco will laser you in every matchup. It is inevitable. HOWEVER, there are several matchups that I have found lasering as ZSS to be negligible or borderline useless. Broad generalizations about moves and their usefulness are not the wisest things.

I feel like your post is overall targeted at lower levels of play. The change and adaptation that players can go through in a single high level set is pretty crazy. This could also be attributed mostly to an infantile metagame and everyone basically being "ass" at the matchups and situations they are put in, but it's still noteworthy since we are playing in those set of circumstances.

As for the topic at hand... I completely disagree. There are enough hammers that have very positive effects that if you have a combo opportunity it is wise to take the hammer over a possible more "guaranteed" combo extension/finisher sometimes. At low/mid %s a Hammer can just as equally lead to death, tech chase, setup, edgegaurds, or absolutely nothing. To not take a risk especially since your first hammer cannot be a 1 or 2 is kind of silly.

 

[Oracle]

wait...how did the discussion get to hammers?

PKF is not falco's laser. You can't mindlessly spam it and get rewarded; it takes a good deal of thought, spacing, and positioning to use effectively. The problem with relying on lasers at lower levels is that essentially give you free wins, since the technique itself is so powerful you can just rely on it. This isn't really the case with pkf, since there are a lot of risks to a djc pkf, the range is not that great, and its easier to powershield. It does help to focus on the other aspects of lucas's game, but the other aspects honestly aren't that great so you might have trouble. I just play a bunch of different characters to do that

 

[Doctor X]

Hey gents, me again.

I haven't quite given up on this guy. I found the time to start practicing a lot of his technical stuff, as suggested, and I can see the draw of the character. He is, as noted, very, very fun. I still maintain that he is probably low-tier, but I can see him competing rather well in a few important matchups. It's his bad ones that will hold him back... like Captain Falcon getting destroyed by Fox and Sheik, but significantly worse. If and when I have proven myself a bit more-- since results and videos seem to matter more than anything I might possibly say-- I'll likely make another thread dedicated to this discussion, but for now I just want to bring up a few things that I've noticed and see what people are thinking.

Firstly, I think that SH PKF is much better and much safer than DJC PKF the vast majority of the time, because the DJC sacrifices flexibility for a slight boost in combo potential that isn't really worth the trade. I know folks here are very enamored of DJC anything but I'd like to appeal to reasons here:

• It comes out faster. One of the major issues with DJC PKF is that you have to wait until you're at the proper height before you DJ then start the animation, and if you do it too early you don't throw the PKF. If you're not DJC'ing, though, you don't have to wait. You can start the animation as soon as you leave the ground. This gives your opponent less time to respond which is vital in the case of a low-priority, easily-powersshielded projectile.
  
  
• It can come out slower, if you want it to. A properly-executed DCJ PKF has a very strict timing. This makes it predictable. If you DJ at the proper height to get a perfect PKF right next to the ground, your opponent knows exactly when the projectile will be coming, should you choose to throw one. If you wait too long you move upward from the DJ, which causes the PKF to go above your opponent and is phenomenally unsafe in the neutral game considering Lucas's poor recovery. From a straight SH, however, you aren't committed to any specific PKF timing. This can and will throw your opponent off if they're regularly powershielding or breaking your PKF with a move of their own.
  
  
• It gives you more far more control over Lucas's positioning. DJC commits you to going almost straight back down to the stage. This makes it easier to punish and somewhat limits its combo potential. A straight SH gives you more-or-less full control over Lucas and conserves his momentum from when you started the SH. Spacings that might be dangerous for DJC PKF become safe because you can hold backwards after initiating the PKF and land further from your opponent. Spacings that wouldn't result in a combo for a DJC PKF become combos because Lucas can continue moving forward after throwing the PKF.
  
  
• You can control the height of the projectile with combination of timing forward-B out of your jump and deciding if and when to fastfall. This gives you the ability to go through certain moves that are otherwise very difficult to deal with. Bowser's flames come to mind. By throwing it high you can sometimes hit him in the face. Also... I'm not sure but I feel like this would further mix-up the powershield timing because of the shape of the shield. It's a circle, so maybe the different heights have different timings? I don't know a lot about powershielding so I'll admit this might not really be a thing.

For all these reasons, I feel, I've been having much more success with Lucas recently. I can actually hit with PKF a large amount of the time, and even if I don't hit I don't generally get punished. It still can't really be spammed the way Falco spams lasers, but I'm finding that it has a lot of uses even in the neutral game. It's increased my opinion of the character substantially, and tbqh this is something that should have been obvious to any experienced smash player that isn't being diverted by the flashiness of the DJC. It's not pretty, it's just... practical.

Secondly, Lucas has a somewhat annoying interaction of properties that I'm not sure is intended and I think could stand to be addressed. Unlike most characters, Lucas cannot turn around as part of his DJ-- I'm sure this was intended so as not to interfere with this DJC game. Lucas also, as we know, cannot tether the edge if he is not facing the edge-- also most definitely intended. However these two things make Peach's downsmash, which sends you offstage facing away, incredibly deadly against Lucas. The guy has no way of turning around in the air aside from throwing a PKF, which causes him to lose valuable height even if it can be combined with a psi-magnet for horizontal stuff. You are forced to recover very low with a snake, or up-B, both of which are telegraphed to Peach, who will kill you if she's good, usually with just one turnip. It feels degenerate and downright unfair, and I doubt intentionally so.

I feel that Lucas's down-B should be given the ability to turn around in the air, similar to Fox's shine, just to fix this problem. I can't think of any other problems this would introduce, but hey, I've been wrong before.

 

[Oro?!]

Hammers because Im ******** and never try writing walls of text while thinking about 2 threads. /shrug

 

[Nausicaa]

You both seem to understand the point. Low levels of play is where things hit hard like that becoming mindless, but it happens at all levels of play to some extent , even 'top' players learn a lot slower than they should be because of this.
You're being put off by something you directly stated for yourself. lol

It can be the case with PKF as much as lasers, simply because of the fact people will (and are) doing it. It might not be as rewarding as lasers when done the same, and often this is why the meta-game goes through slow-growing spurts (people keep trying to Nair>Shine with characters that can't, so they're labeled 'bad', for a vague example) and PKF is a natural center-point for people to gravitate to.

You guys get this, and understand the importance of mindfulness, and understand how poorly everyone is currently playing in PM due to it being new, etc... Though it's very overlooked that nobody is paying enough attention to how they're approaching the new game, what's your problem with playing without PKF while you're learning the game?

You know PKF is cool, and how to use it in the neutral game, etc... so drop it. From now on (once you've reached this point) it's literally 100% nothing but a building block holding you back. By definition.

Hammers rock. Pretty random, but good. With GW it's not the use of Hammers that matter, but the proper use of them. AKA leading into them, utilizing and developing a presence with them, and so on. The actual act of pressing the button in all circumstances doesn't matter. The mental volitional action before performing the action is where your awareness takes place. THIS is what EVERYONE needs work. Or rather, where everyone sucks and hence the majority of people are very weak-minded in that regard.
Ignorance is beautiful, all it takes is bit of awareness and Ta-dah! The greatest hindrance is no more.

Oro, I don't even understand your claimed disagreement. Elaborate? It sounds like you've agreed with everything in the post, followed by a statement as an example of an 'exception' or something. Hopefully this makes a little more sense for you. haha

Edit: LOL Double threads.

The other aspects of Lucas aren't 'not great', you're just 'not great' at the other aspects. Work with him as if he never had PKF to begin with. You WILL have to learn how to play without it. It's inevitable, and one day you'll know how quite well with enough time gone into the character otherwise. Why not work on that now?
This isn't difficult stuff, or limiting yourself in any way. It's fun, easy, and a lot more helpful than anyone gives credit to.

Work. With. Awareness.

I any way you can.
Also, working with other characters is always helpful. Try binging with them if possible. Meaning, play with 1/2 exclusively for a long while, then go back to others. It's rare to find people who know how to take or use intentional breaks anymore. Breaks are good. Do them.




Edit: Doctor X
Don't shun away DJC PKF's for SH PKF's. Using both when necessary is ideal.

Also, the sentence... "And even if I don't hit, I generally don't get punished"
Is one of the most ironic sentences I've read in a while, given the recent discussion here.

Falco shouldn't be spamming lasers, ever. At least in the common sense of the term. He can do the same with a few as he can with a lot. Usually any abundance of lasers is caused by a lack of efficiency (not optimal play, or not 'top' level play), or because of the efficiency of the opponent, in which case he's being limited and shouldn't try for it much anyway.
The same concept applies directly to every character, Lucas as well. With Lucas, it's primarily PKF.
Make sense?
What to do if that makes sense?
I wonder...

 

[Doctor X]

Edit: Doctor X
Don't shun away DJC PKF's for SH PKF's. Using both when necessary is ideal.

Of course. I'm merely arguing for the reverse-- don't shun away SH PKF's for DCJ PKF's. I'm sure the DJC PKF has some limited uses but that is not always the impression this board gives. For example:

DJC pkf is better than sh pkf 100% of the time because the projectile comes out at almost the same time, but it hits lower and you can act earlier, making it easier to follow up or run away or w/e. Plus lots of characters can just duck sh pkf because it hits so high

I'm aware that this argument was addressed earlier, but the discussion only went for a couple short posts and ended with Burnsy actually agreeing with the notion, "for Lucas' ground game, with one exception," and that exception was if you were combing from a DCJ PKF. >.<

I don't feel that this notion is even true most of the time, and I have given reasons. I'd like to discuss this with people interested in *thinking* about move properties rather than ooh-ing and ahh-ing over technical gimmicks that may or may not be all that useful in the end. Like you've been saying in your recent posts: Work. With. Awareness. Right?

Edit: Let me also add that I read the discussion surrounding Oracle's post when I first started picking up the character, and I feel that it led me astray. It prevented me from seeing some of the true value of PKF. This is a perfect example of your point, Nasuicaa. If I had really thought about it I might not have fallen into the trap of DJCing every PKF. I didn't think about it because I actually believed these guys when they said what they said. Believe it or not I didn't come to these boards with the intention of proving people wrong about anything, so if a more experienced Lucas player was so certain about a thing, to me it seemed like a waste of time to challenge the notion. Do we see the problem here, guys?

Also, the sentence... "And even if I don't hit, I generally don't get punished"
Is one of the most ironic sentences I've read in a while, given the recent discussion here.

I'm not sure I understand the irony. >.>

I believe your point is that Lucas should be thinking about when to PKF and when not to PKF, and he should learn to play without relying on PKF that way potentially more efficient plays can be discovered. Correct?

My point is not related to this. DJC PKF is very punishable by an opponent who knows its properties. SH PKF does not appear to be in my experience. I do not advocate "mindlessly" throwing SH PKF, I just think it's a safer option a good portion of the time than DJC PKF.

Falco shouldn't be spamming lasers, ever. At least in the common sense of the term. He can do the same with a few as he can with a lot. Usually any abundance of lasers is caused by a lack of efficiency (not optimal play, or not 'top' level play), or because of the efficiency of the opponent, in which case he's being limited and shouldn't try for it much anyway.

High-level Falcos shoot lots and lots of lasers. It's a safe move and you don't have a ton of reason not to do it a lot in the neutral game. This falls under the definition of spam in the common sense. My point is to contrast this with PKF, which is not nearly as safe with or without the DJC and Lucas has plenty of reasons to not do it a lot in the neutral game.

I believe your point-- and again, correct me of I'm wrong-- is that too many Falco players become so used to firing lasers in any given situation that they miss opportunities to utilize other, more powerful options. For example, if you tech roll near a Falco, he certainly can fire a laser as you come out of the tech and it will hit you, but this only gets you a few percents and may not lead into anything else depending on the Falco's positioning. Thus, only a bad Falco who knows only lasers will really do this. A good Falco will instead tech-chase with a dair-- a more difficult and less obvious play, but a much more effective one. It gets you more damage and can lead into a bair or another dair.

It is a very good insight and I think that it, in many ways, lines up with what I hope people will start doing around here: Stop being diverted by gimmicks and start thinking about what you're doing. Or maybe I'm completely off-base. >.>

 

[Burnsy]

• It gives you more far more control over Lucas's positioning. DJC commits you to going almost straight back down to the stage. This makes it easier to punish and somewhat limits its combo potential. A straight SH gives you more-or-less full control over Lucas and conserves his momentum from when you started the SH. Spacings that might be dangerous for DJC PKF become safe because you can hold backwards after initiating the PKF and land further from your opponent. Spacings that wouldn't result in a combo for a DJC PKF become combos because Lucas can continue moving forward after throwing the PKF.
• You can control the height of the projectile with combination of timing forward-B out of your jump and deciding if and when to fastfall. This gives you the ability to go through certain moves that are otherwise very difficult to deal with. Bowser's flames come to mind. By throwing it high you can sometimes hit him in the face. Also... I'm not sure but I feel like this would further mix-up the powershield timing because of the shape of the shield. It's a circle, so maybe the different heights have different timings? I don't know a lot about powershielding so I'll admit this might not really be a thing

There actually is a way to follow up a full distance djc pkf that has hit, if you jump, airdodge toward them, and cancel with z-air. This continues the pkf's juggle and places you right next to them, which can lead into tons of follow up. On the other hand, if you are short hopping towards them it would be even easier to jump over the freeze you are throwing and bob you in the head for coming so close as you threw.

I don't really understand your second point I have quoted here. It's not as if you can't control your pkf placement with different timings on the dj. I'll agree that the projectile itself will come out faster and might be a better option if you want to throw at a SH height, but you can't throw higher than that and following up is can be more difficult unless you shorthop dangerously close (remember, when I refer to follow up difficulty I am including the z-air trick which only works with djc freeze)

I always tend to think about these things in advance... is there a good amount of time to react to a djc pkf, even though my typical opponents who know me seem to still have trouble getting around it? Yes, and they'll probably catch on to it. Once that happens, I already have some footsies in mind: get into a distance or situation where I would normally throw a djc pkf (full distance usually), do a quick dj, then airdodge down/away. If I can find a good balance between these real djc pkf and feints, I figure the unpredictability should help against powershield abuse.

Secondly, Lucas has a somewhat annoying interaction of properties that I'm not sure is intended and I think could stand to be addressed. Unlike most characters, Lucas cannot turn around as part of his DJ-- I'm sure this was intended so as not to interfere with this DJC game. Lucas also, as we know, cannot tether the edge if he is not facing the edge-- also most definitely intended. However these two things make Peach's downsmash, which sends you offstage facing away, incredibly deadly against Lucas. The guy has no way of turning around in the air aside from throwing a PKF, which causes him to lose valuable height even if it can be combined with a psi-magnet for horizontal stuff. You are forced to recover very low with a snake, or up-B, both of which are telegraphed to Peach, who will kill you if she's good, usually with just one turnip. It feels degenerate and downright unfair, and I doubt intentionally so.

I feel that Lucas's down-B should be given the ability to turn around in the air, similar to Fox's shine, just to fix this problem. I can't think of any other problems this would introduce, but hey, I've been wrong before.

Sorry, you're wrong. Lucas can quite easily turn around in the air using his down-b, but not like foxes shine. You just need to reverse it during start-up, its not difficult at all. This is very important for me because I typically recovery with his tether. I imagine that his down-b isn't reversable in the same way as the other spacies+ness since Lucas' down-b has a repeating hitbox that extends from his hands rather than covering his entire body (when the other characters turn around, the hitbox doesn't move)

Also keep in mind that he cannot be reversed during his z-air by the likes of Pit or Mario

If and when I have proven myself a bit more-- since results and videos seem to matter more than anything I might possibly say

I know you find this "unfair" but there is good reason for it. For example I don't even know how you could claim to be dedicated to this character and not know that you can use his down-b to turn around in the air. I require information like this when reading posts like yours to know if you are taking all the same factors that I do into consideration when you say "Lucas recovery is garbs" (note I'm not trying to spark an argument that it isn't, just an example). I'm glad that after playing him more, you are finding him to be better than your initial impressions left you with.

I'll likely make another thread dedicated to this discussion, but for now I just want to bring up a few things that I've noticed and see what people are thinking.

Again? Really? Doesn't your discussion of why Lucas is so bad belong in the match-up thread? Do you need your own thread to dictate?

It is a very good insight and I think that it, in many ways, lines up with what I hope people will start doing around here: Stop being diverted by gimmicks and start thinking about what you're doing.

I'll do that Doctor X, and may I propose you try the opposite? Rather than referring to nearly every technical trick Lucas can do as a "gimmick" because it doesn't mimick ______ (great character), maybe try to do more with the character (discover things like reverse down-b and djc side-b>z-air from practicing tech on your own).

 

[Oro?!]

Mainly what I disagreed with was what options you are saying people are using as a crutch depending on characters. Also when you are playing a newer matchup, I don't understand why you wouldn't test the waters with those options. So much learning takes place through experimentation of every option when you are first experiencing a matchup, and it seems backwards to deny yourself that learning in order to... learn?

Also if laser camping is the optimal strategy, then I don't understand how Falco "spamming lasers" is an inherent not high level gameplan.

@Nausicaa

 

[Ishiey]

The main advantage of DJC PKF over SH PKF is that you can use the DJ to adjust/change your horizontal air speed, and the main advantage of SH > DJC is that you have more control over the vertical spacing of the move.

imo.

I'm going to try playing with just one grab per match next time. It seems like a very good way for me to stop depending on it for the majority of my kills/combos :/

 

[Doctor X]

There actually is a way to follow up a full distance djc pkf that has hit, if you jump, airdodge toward them, and cancel with z-air. This continues the pkf's juggle and places you right next to them, which can lead into tons of follow up.

Cool trick. I will give it a shot, though tbqh hitting my usual practice partners with a DJC PKF in a neutral state is something that just doesn't happen anymore, especially not from that distance because they know I have nothing else I can really do from a jump when I'm that far away. As soon as they see me leave the ground, they're prepared for it. Might be a super badass tech-chase, though.

When do you generally use this, personally, Burnsy? If you hadn't noticed, I like suggestions. :O

On the other hand, if you are short hopping towards them it would be even easier to jump over the freeze you are throwing and bob you in the head for coming so close as you threw.

Of course I wouldn't do this in a neutral state. Normally I do this right after one of my safer PKFs land, or if my opponent has expended their second jump-- or has a slow second-jump like Bowser or Charizard-- and is close to the ground. They can't jump over it and they can't shield it. They might break it with an aerial or airdodge, but then I can hit them out of the lag. If I DJC in this situation the move is slower to come out and closer to the ground, and I land further from them, increasing the chance of it missing and decreasing the chance of getting a decent follow-up if it does hit.

I'll agree that the projectile itself will come out faster and might be a better option if you want to throw at a SH height, but you can't throw higher than that and following up is can be more difficult unless you shorthop dangerously close (remember, when I refer to follow up difficulty I am including the z-air trick which only works with djc freeze)

You can, but again, it is slower. In fact, the higher you want to throw it, the slower it is. This limits its utility greatly. In the case of Bowser's flames it doesn't work because it gives him time to angle the flames upward and block the PKF.

Personally I can't imagine many situations where I would want to throw it at higher than SH height. It wouldn't lead into all that much if you did, would it?

Sorry, you're wrong. Lucas can quite easily turn around in the air using his down-b, but not like foxes shine. You just need to reverse it during start-up, its not difficult at all. This is very important for me because I typically recovery with his tether. I imagine that his down-b isn't reversable in the same way as the other spacies+ness since Lucas' down-b has a repeating hitbox that extends from his hands rather than covering his entire body (when the other characters turn around, the hitbox doesn't move)

Glad to be wrong here, thank you. TBQH I actually did try it out about a minute before making the post, but I suppose I just wasn't inputting it right.

I don't even know how you could claim to be dedicated to this character and not know that you can use his down-b to turn around in the air. I require information like this when reading posts like yours to know if you are taking all the same factors that I do into consideration when you say "Lucas recovery is garbs" (note I'm not trying to spark an argument that it isn't, just an example). I'm glad that after playing him more, you are finding him to be better than your initial impressions left you with.

I'm not dedicated to the character, not really. I like him, but he won't be my main. Too many other characters in this game are more deserving of that spot, for reasons I addressed in my thread. Lucas is the kind of guy I'll play in friendlies when I'm bored of Fox, or to make combo videos or whatever else.

Like I've said, I don't know everything and I appreciate people sharing things with me. I'm not afraid of being wrong. Being wrong is the best way to learn sometimes.

 

[Nausicaa]

Of course. I'm merely arguing for the reverse.

I'd like to discuss this with people interested in *thinking* about move properties rather than ooh-ing and ahh-ing over technical gimmicks that may or may not be all that useful in the end.

Of course.

Internet stuff. Both are good, people know that. Someone points out one side of it that's overlooked, another person points out the other, back and forth.
I knew you weren't arguing against it, and why you posted what you did, just had to clarify that because it's forums.
You know what's up.

I'm not sure I understand the irony. >.>

I believe your point is that Lucas should be thinking about when to PKF and when not to PKF, and he should learn to play without relying on PKF that way potentially more efficient plays can be discovered. Correct?

I do not advocate "mindlessly" throwing SH PKF, I just think it's a safer option a good portion of the time than DJC PKF.

I try not to use words like 'thinking' about it. Intellectually analyzing things is slow. I'd rather have everyone intuitively figure things out, but that takes giving attention to what they're aware of, and working from there.
But yes.

The irony is how the sentence implied "When I USED to not land the hit, I would get hit for it, but now it's different".
Meaning it wasn't likely even close to the optimal decision to make at the time, but now you're paying attention to it. It's probably just the way you worded it, but it's actually quite funny.
AKA we should almost never do something if it's not a 100% conscious action. Not like "think about it before doing it", simply just not "Do it without 'actually' intending to" which is almost always the case with every reactive play we can make.

High-level Falcos shoot lots and lots of lasers. It's a safe move and you don't have a ton of reason not to do it a lot in the neutral game. This falls under the definition of spam in the common sense. My point is to contrast this with PKF, which is not nearly as safe with or without the DJC and Lucas has plenty of reasons to not do it a lot in the neutral game.

I believe your point-- and again, correct me of I'm wrong-- is that too many Falco players become so used to firing lasers in any given situation that they miss opportunities to utilize other, more powerful options. For example, if you tech roll near a Falco, he certainly can fire a laser as you come out of the tech and it will hit you, but this only gets you a few percents and may not lead into anything else depending on the Falco's positioning. Thus, only a bad Falco who knows only lasers will really do this. A good Falco will instead tech-chase with a dair-- a more difficult and less obvious play, but a much more effective one. It gets you more damage and can lead into a bair or another dair.

Or maybe I'm completely off-base. >.>

I suppose I define 'spam' as the act of doing it when it's not ideal, laser-because-I-can, rather than laser-because-I-should.
Just as with Lucas and the whole PK Freeze thing, Falco should never, ever, shoot a laser without doing it for a very certain and specific reason. That may come up often, and may seem like 'spamming' to the untrained eye, or unaware player (even 'good' players), but it does get to a point where you shouldn't do ANYTHING without full confidence and awareness of your actions. This includes lasers, as well as Warlock punches, and even simply jumping. Do what you need to do, nothing more, nothing less. We're good at the nothing less part, the nothing more... everyone has issues it seems.

Nah you're good and on track there, and likely understand all of this post easily too. Me thinkz anyway.

Oro: Falco laser stuff is kind of for you there too. ^
Otherwise, I'm not encouraging people to do things they're uncomfortable with if they're already in an uncomfortable situation. When you're accustomed to PKF use, understand its application, and are able to apply it to your game to some effective extent, then drop it for a while. Test the waters to find whatever else you have. Once you have other tools, and understand them to that applicable point comfortably, when you bring PK Freeze (or ANYTHING like it, this isn't exclusive to PKF/lasers/the mentioned moves or options), you'll have a deeper intuitive and experiential sense of the character.
That a little clearer?
It's kind of obvious, but I'm just trying to spell it out in a sensible way so people know how to work on the way they're 'learning' the game, rather than simply learning the game through working on things. Hopefully that makes sense too. haha


Ishieymoro: One grab per stock, or simply not using Up-Throw to kill/whatever combo you might be doing out of it, might be enough to work on that dynamic (the access to naturally being able to kill things without grabs) as Grabs alone can be a huge part of your game for leading into kill-set-ups of other kinds. Or at least, in building the dynamics of your game before kill-%.

Maybe even just not using grabs after a certain %. This could give you a chance to witness how much more frequently opponents shield when the become more in danger of killing blows, which will directly allow you to see a lot of these grab-to-kill opportunities for when you DO start grabbing for kills again.
Just a thought.
But good stuff.



Edit: On the earlier post about being able to delayed SH PKFs and not DJC PKFs. You don't have to DJC immediately when the PKF will come out in time. Wait until you've almost touched the ground after a SH, DJ, cancel it appropriately whenever needed. There's actually more you can do with a SH + DJC in the same maneuver than anything else.
You know what there's even MORE you can do with?
Not doing any action at all. Only then can you do anything at all.

 

[Badge]

I always had the impression you should try mixing up between fullhop DJC PKF (the fastest way to get a low PKF), SH PKF, and different SH DJC PKF timings (eg. early DJ->delayed PKF or later DJ->instant PKF and other stuff). It just seems like a waste not to make use of all the different timings, considering they all have noticably different properties and just using one is both not ideal and more easily predictable. Speaking about fullhop DJCs, FH DJC Nair looks like it could be useful for approach angles and timings a bit different from the usual approaches.

As for PSI Magnet, it can be reversed both before and during startup and thus be wavebounced - both in the air and on the ground. It's probably not as useful while grounded, but wavebouncing/b-reversing DownB in the air ties neatlessly into DJ momentum shifts to give Lucas superb aerial mobility, albeit ofc more linear/limited than true aerial mobility. Still it should be enough to fake approaches/retreats, bait reactions and/or counterattack quickly.

 

[Burnsy]

How interesting! 8adge, what exactly is the difference between a full hop DJC and short hop DJC?

 

[Badge]

You get height faster, so you don't have to wait as long until you can DJC to initiate your fall and not cancel the attack. The difference is pretty noticable even when not frame advancing, FH DJC PKF is like 1/10 of a second faster than SH DJC PKFs. On the other hand, I'm clawing to input SideB instantly after the DJ, it's probably less intuitive if you have a pause between those inputs. Also, the speed difference is just for PKF and to a lesser extent BAir, other aerials only get more attack angles/heights by considering fullhop DJCs.

 

[Oracle]

so do you guys still think lucas has a bad recovery?

 

[GunBlaze]

so do you guys still think lucas has a bad recovery?

Who said his recovery is bad? Was he/she/it/Purin high at the time that was said?

 

[Oracle]

that other thread where OS and dr x ******* about how it was impossible to get back to stage and whatnot lol

 

[Airrider]

I know that Fuzzyness and MikeHaggar thinks that Lucas is one of the best characters in the game (top 5). They don't seem to discuss it here a lot though.


It's interesting to see that some people think that he's bad and that some think he's super good.

 

[GunBlaze]

I know that Fuzzyness and MikeHaggar thinks that Lucas is one of the best characters in the game (top 5).

If not top 5, at least top 10.

Carrying opponents back and forth via PK Shine is too good, man. I'm telling ya.

 

[Dron]

I know that Fuzzyness and MikeHaggar thinks that Lucas is one of the best characters in the game (top 5). They don't seem to discuss it here a lot though.


It's interesting to see that some people think that he's bad and that some think he's super good.

they were really praising his recovery in particular which surprised me because most people see it as one of his defining weaknesses - I think they even went as far to say that it was "broken", and at that point I think it's best to take what they were saying with a grain of salt

I think as strategies develop his recovery will be terrible at worst and mediocre at best, but a bad/medicore recovery obviously won't necessarily hinder him from top-level viability (see: Falco)

 

[Naughty Pixel]

so do you guys still think lucas has a bad recovery?

Well they play together i think so its not farfetched that they came to similar conclusions

 

[Oracle]

lucas' recovery is pretty damn good, so I see where they're coming from. If you watch my match vs seth I only really got gimped when I was being dumb, and he was playing marth, one of the easiest characters to edgeguard lucas with.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Well what makes you think its good?

 

[Oracle]

not getting edgeguarded by marths with a ton of lucas experience is pretty good. You guys just need to learn the range of the snake and how to effectively abuse the invincibility from the airdodge

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

lucas can stunlock ppl with his dtilt from like 35/40->60/65 (as a combo) that will combo into more ****

 

[Oracle]

Actually that doesnt work. You can cc to sheild I believe or sdi out of range of the next dtilt

 

[Ishiey]

I don't think people can CC it, but SDI is the way to go. Even then, Lucas can sometimes get a guaranteed dashattack, or grab if they read a shield or something.

 

[Burnsy]

How would they CC during stun, Oracle? Either way, I'm going to test this later. By the way, I tested AGT out of stun like we were talking about in the other thread and it wasn't working, are you sure it's still in 2.5?

 

[Oracle]

i could be wrong about it, but the rob side b thing works off of the same principal so idk. And when haggar says stun lock im assuming he means multiple dtilts, which doesn't really work

what a waste of a 2000th post