Nooooot the biggest fan of the brawl bair, from what I'm looking at. Could be more useful in practice, dunno. I'm totally down for that dair, though
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Lucas General Discussion
- Thread starter Ishiey
- Start date
Dron
Smash Apprentice
jump offstage -> reverse magnet -> JC -> bair would probably be super sick
Dng3
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2008
- Messages
- 129
Does anyone find it odd how Bair and Dair were changed this late? I'm sure many players were accustomed to pre-2.6 move sets already and now they have to drastically adjust their play style in the air with Lucas.
I don't play Lucas too much so I wouldn't know if this change was needed. Was his project M Bair and Dair that bad?
I don't play Lucas too much so I wouldn't know if this change was needed. Was his project M Bair and Dair that bad?
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
2.5 Dair was really good IMO, I'm sure the changes strike everyone as a surprise. I don't know the story yet of why they did it, but I can't really develop an opinion on whether I like the changes since they're all really cool aerials: with his brawl versions being slightly more unique and more swag to spike people with. He had his Brawl aerials in 1.0, but this time they're a lot more changed.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
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You freaking non-version 1.0 people, despicable. You're missing out on knowing the fun Zelda too how bout ya revert that back as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UqdEKUiplk
Oracle
Smash Master
2.5 dair is pretty useless because it has deceptively little range few active frames and isnt very powerful for a meteor, even when sweetspotted. Brawl dair is so much more useful. Bair is better because the sourspot is effectively 2.5 bair but slightly weaker, and the sweetspot is a spike, not a meteor
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I think the new dair looks really useful. You can basically carry them down to ground with it and get a reset/ground bounce off the meteor, or land before the meteor hit altogether and continue with his new faster jab. Apparently 2.6 dair is supposed to be decent against crouch canceling as well.
I don't see anyone talking about him being able to rising pkf. That's pretty neat.
Bair looks good too. A real spike is pretty awesome. I wish that the angle on the non-spike portion of it was the same as 2.5 though. That's what I think allows his 2.5 one to kill earlier.
I don't see anyone talking about him being able to rising pkf. That's pretty neat.
Bair looks good too. A real spike is pretty awesome. I wish that the angle on the non-spike portion of it was the same as 2.5 though. That's what I think allows his 2.5 one to kill earlier.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Wait, Lucas will have a faster jab in 2.6? Or do you just mean from Brawl > PM? (I hardly remember Brawl Lucas)
I want to like/play Lucas, but **** man. He feels like too much once the match starts for me. The new Dair will certainly help, and I feel like Bair will fit better than the old one.
I want to like/play Lucas, but **** man. He feels like too much once the match starts for me. The new Dair will certainly help, and I feel like Bair will fit better than the old one.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
His 2.6 jab definitely looks faster than 2.5
Idk, I feel like if Lucas is played fast and aggressive enough he can really set the pace in a lot of his match ups.
Idk, I feel like if Lucas is played fast and aggressive enough he can really set the pace in a lot of his match ups.
HammerTime
Smash Journeyman
Just out of curiosity, where are you guys getting all this info on the changes for 2.6? As a Lucas main I'm really eager to see the changes being made.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
There's been a couple streams over the past few days with stuff that's been shown, and some poster(s) are in the PMBR, soooooooooo. I'm really looking forward to the new Dair, it's gonna help so much...
While I'm hear, what's the best move when someone brings there shield up and you're jumping at them? Also, how to deal with long ranged moves, such as Ivy's Fair, DK F-tilt, etc etc.
It'd also be cool if someone could direct me to the streams that have shown off Lucas stuff (if it's happened)
While I'm hear, what's the best move when someone brings there shield up and you're jumping at them? Also, how to deal with long ranged moves, such as Ivy's Fair, DK F-tilt, etc etc.
It'd also be cool if someone could direct me to the streams that have shown off Lucas stuff (if it's happened)
Burnsy
Smash Lord
From the situation described, I assume you are short hopping and then deciding what to do when they sheild. When used as a shffl, uair, dair and fair are all around the same level of safety. Usually though, you would use fair because it has better range and can be spaced more safely than the others.
If you are intentionally looking for sheild pressure aerials to start pressure, nothing is safer than djc fair and nair.
NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
I think doing a short hopped magnet is probably the best in a lot of situations, although it should be mixed up with other moves appropriately to keep your shield pressure unpredictable and difficult to punish. The magnet just gives you so many options, one of which is magnet -> djc aerial, which is better than just doing a djc aerial right away, because it lets you deal more shield damage, without really letting your opponent act out of their shield, since they can't really do anything before the aerial comes out due to the initial shield stun from the magnet. Also, if they do try to act out of their shield, you can hit them with your uair or fair and then combo after that (the magnet can also combo into djc uair or fair if you space and time it correctly). Plus, you can retreat as you're doing the djc aerial so that you land out of the range of most or all of your opponents potential oos punishes. If you do the magnet as you're advancing, you can also glide into their shield as you do the magnet, and land with a uair behind them so that they can't shield grab you; this doesn't really work without doing the magnet first, since they would have a lot of time to react as you're jumping through their shield before doing the aerial.
Another benefit of the magnet is that you can air dodge out of it, allowing you to apply pressure, retreat out of range, and land without additional landing lag so that you can move around and punish or continuing pressuring as necessary. You can also zair out of the air dodge to make this retreat even safer if you air dodge straight back, or you can approach by doing a sh magnet out of range to bait your opponent out of their shield to try to punish you, and then air dodge toward them with the zair to start a combo (or just do a djc fair if you're close enough that you don't need the air dodge).
Basically, you can do anything else out of the sh magnet, so it's usually a good idea to throw it in just for the extra shield pressure and potential combo starter. This post is pretty much just focused on shield pressure, but there are lots of awesome things about the magnet besides just pressuring safely. If they get hit by the sh magnet, you can combo that directly into a djc uair or fair, and continue with normal combos after that, such as more uairs or nair/magnet/smash attack/whatever you want. It's also just a great aerial in general, since you can use it to control your location and momentum so well, and can attack out of it immediately, without giving the opponent any chance to avoid a long combo, since sh magnet to djc uair is pretty much inescapable and leads into so many things. Also, the fact that you can b-reverse it makes it even better, since you can chase your opponents in lots of unexpected ways, or just use it as an additional mobility tool. Because of the massive and complex variety of options that you have out of an aerial magnet, the learning curve for implementing it seem very steep, but I think it will allow Lucas to compete for having the best aerial game when used in combination with all of his other aerial options.
Also, you can use it to get through projectiles safely as long as you reach the opponent soon after absorbing the projectile, so that they don't have time to punish the lag you experience while absorbing something with the magnet. Once the lag ends, you can act normally, so as long as you don't get hit during the lag this is just as good as a normal sh magnet, plus you recover health and hit your opponent as you glide into them.
Another benefit of the magnet is that you can air dodge out of it, allowing you to apply pressure, retreat out of range, and land without additional landing lag so that you can move around and punish or continuing pressuring as necessary. You can also zair out of the air dodge to make this retreat even safer if you air dodge straight back, or you can approach by doing a sh magnet out of range to bait your opponent out of their shield to try to punish you, and then air dodge toward them with the zair to start a combo (or just do a djc fair if you're close enough that you don't need the air dodge).
Basically, you can do anything else out of the sh magnet, so it's usually a good idea to throw it in just for the extra shield pressure and potential combo starter. This post is pretty much just focused on shield pressure, but there are lots of awesome things about the magnet besides just pressuring safely. If they get hit by the sh magnet, you can combo that directly into a djc uair or fair, and continue with normal combos after that, such as more uairs or nair/magnet/smash attack/whatever you want. It's also just a great aerial in general, since you can use it to control your location and momentum so well, and can attack out of it immediately, without giving the opponent any chance to avoid a long combo, since sh magnet to djc uair is pretty much inescapable and leads into so many things. Also, the fact that you can b-reverse it makes it even better, since you can chase your opponents in lots of unexpected ways, or just use it as an additional mobility tool. Because of the massive and complex variety of options that you have out of an aerial magnet, the learning curve for implementing it seem very steep, but I think it will allow Lucas to compete for having the best aerial game when used in combination with all of his other aerial options.
Also, you can use it to get through projectiles safely as long as you reach the opponent soon after absorbing the projectile, so that they don't have time to punish the lag you experience while absorbing something with the magnet. Once the lag ends, you can act normally, so as long as you don't get hit during the lag this is just as good as a normal sh magnet, plus you recover health and hit your opponent as you glide into them.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
I just got a handle for Sh Magnet > Waveland and it's certainly coming in handy. I like holding it for a little as an additional mix-up against shields.
Also, holy **** guys Sonic. Sonic guys. Holy ****. It's so weird, he gets combo'd just fine, but landing a hit is nigh impossible. I can't -wait- for the new Dair, by the way...
Also, holy **** guys Sonic. Sonic guys. Holy ****. It's so weird, he gets combo'd just fine, but landing a hit is nigh impossible. I can't -wait- for the new Dair, by the way...
Burnsy
Smash Lord
I think that Lucas actually has a better time with Sonic than your average character by a considerable margin.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
I could use some advice then, I like F-air because it hits pretty good against him, but otherwise, I'm not seeing it... I'd greatly appreciate some tips. Maybe it's because I like PKF and he dances around it
Burnsy
Smash Lord
In my opinion, beating Sonic in the neutral game so that you can start up combos means close observation of his movement patterns, attack patterns, and baiting patterns to know when and where you should be attacking, defending, or baiting him yourself. This is of course important for all characters to do, but against Sonic it is even more critical since he sets the pace of the match. Lucas can capitalize a lot more on openings than several of his other peers due to good options for comboing, spacing, and mobility that happen to work well on Sonic.
As you said yourself, DJC fair is great and should be one of your primary tools when fighting Sonic, because it is fast, sets up follow-ups/combos, has good priority for hitting him out of moves like down-b, thanks to it's disjoint.
Sonic can deal with spam or predictable use of PK Freeze, because he has a good speed/mobility and therefore can avoid it easily if he expects it. However, the move itself can be quite strong against him since he's rarely going to Nair through it, it clanks with down-b, and shielding it is something he might prefer to avoid, since it lets up on dominating pressure and gives opponents a chance to reverse momentum. Stopping him in his tracks during down-b can be very helpful. My advice is to observe how you play and what situations you are using PKF in, and then try to mix-up that behavior and use it more unexpectedly.
Uair is a good way to hit him quickly OoS, even if Sonic is behind him when he does it.
Nair is a good general purpose combo extender. Down-b is good at both continuing combos as well as starting up safe pressure.
Dair and PKF are great punish openers that can lead to usmash, and fsmash/grab (respectively).
To kill him, either combo into a smash/bair/offstage dair, get a pkf>jc grab>uthrow, or gimp him with either dair or Up-b's tail. Don't even bother with going for the hard read unless the sonic is so predictable you can call out his next action out loud.
If he is gimping you with the spring, you should start experimenting with the tether airdodge abuse tricks I talk about a few pages back.
Actually, you should start experimenting with that even if it isn't a problem. It will save your butt a lot, especially as you start playing better players.
As you said yourself, DJC fair is great and should be one of your primary tools when fighting Sonic, because it is fast, sets up follow-ups/combos, has good priority for hitting him out of moves like down-b, thanks to it's disjoint.
Sonic can deal with spam or predictable use of PK Freeze, because he has a good speed/mobility and therefore can avoid it easily if he expects it. However, the move itself can be quite strong against him since he's rarely going to Nair through it, it clanks with down-b, and shielding it is something he might prefer to avoid, since it lets up on dominating pressure and gives opponents a chance to reverse momentum. Stopping him in his tracks during down-b can be very helpful. My advice is to observe how you play and what situations you are using PKF in, and then try to mix-up that behavior and use it more unexpectedly.
Uair is a good way to hit him quickly OoS, even if Sonic is behind him when he does it.
Nair is a good general purpose combo extender. Down-b is good at both continuing combos as well as starting up safe pressure.
Dair and PKF are great punish openers that can lead to usmash, and fsmash/grab (respectively).
To kill him, either combo into a smash/bair/offstage dair, get a pkf>jc grab>uthrow, or gimp him with either dair or Up-b's tail. Don't even bother with going for the hard read unless the sonic is so predictable you can call out his next action out loud.
If he is gimping you with the spring, you should start experimenting with the tether airdodge abuse tricks I talk about a few pages back.
Actually, you should start experimenting with that even if it isn't a problem. It will save your butt a lot, especially as you start playing better players.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Alright, thanks a bunch, I'll make sure to hit the lab and get all my **** down. I've actually been doing pretty well with my recovery, still getting used to "No air doge while tumbling" though.
The more I squeeze it into combos when I can, the more I feel like I'll miss old Bair. As much as I like the sound of Dthrow->Bair flooring people, I dunno... Rip Roundhouse kick.
The more I squeeze it into combos when I can, the more I feel like I'll miss old Bair. As much as I like the sound of Dthrow->Bair flooring people, I dunno... Rip Roundhouse kick.
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
No more... Roundhouse or inverted Flash Kick? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
NeonApophis
Smash Apprentice
Everyone might already know this, but you can get out of tumble by wiggling the analog stick side to side once you're out of hit stun so that you can air dodge. Also, the new back air is really useful, largely since it lets you kill people who are above you when you're in the air. The ability to spike people also seems pretty good, although I never implemented that and have only been playing 2.5b recently.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
He may not have an inverted flash kick, but now he does one upside-down. That's pretty cool, right?
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
Still, NUUUUUUUU!
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2012
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- 3,056
- Switch FC
- SW-6444-7862-9014
Holy crap,Project Melee Lucas is WAY TOO GOOD,dat combos,dat aerials,dat speed,dat new projectile,dat everything except his recovery.
I'll stop playing him on brawl just to main him in PM.
I'll stop playing him on brawl just to main him in PM.
Burnsy
Smash Lord
His recovery is actually pretty good too if you use all of his recovery options to their fullest. It's good to experiment lot with rope snake recovery and using his slight aerial weaving and airdodge directions to mix it up.
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
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haha yeah I noticed that after i played some more,Psi magnet is still useful and a friend just told me about that airdodge > Zair melee thing
I'll miss Zap Jump a little though.
Brawl bair sucks,the new one is much better.
Lukingordex
No Custom Titles Allowed
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Just a question:
Is DJC indispensable for a Lucas main?
Because I'm just a n00b that came from Brawl and don't know how to hell is possible to do all this melee stuff.
Ops sorry for double posting.....
Is DJC indispensable for a Lucas main?
Because I'm just a n00b that came from Brawl and don't know how to hell is possible to do all this melee stuff.
Ops sorry for double posting.....
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
I dunno, it just seems like a waste to play Lucas and not use DJC, it's part of what makes him so fast and crazy and fun to me.
Still working on implementing PSI Magnet in my game, I'm starting to see spots to use it. I've also combo'd into DACUS a few times, it's very satisfying. Also, I use it very sparingly, but the little short hop running away PKT thing is such a tricky little tool. I also use the short hop momentum to use Offense Up when I knock someone away.
Still working on implementing PSI Magnet in my game, I'm starting to see spots to use it. I've also combo'd into DACUS a few times, it's very satisfying. Also, I use it very sparingly, but the little short hop running away PKT thing is such a tricky little tool. I also use the short hop momentum to use Offense Up when I knock someone away.
TheGrooseofLegend
Smash Rookie
they're changing bair and dair? but my favorite combos (uair > djc bair and dair>jab reset>fsmash) come from those moves D:>
GunBlaze
Smash Lord
..You can still do both of those combos in 2.6.
Darkgun
Smash Journeyman
So I just kinda picked up Lucas today. Mainly because someone at some point in time was like "Lucas is a flashy character." and instantly sold me on the idea. Took me a bit to get stuff figured out, like most things, but good lord once the momentum is built, the freight train of a child feels darned near unstoppable. Also, it may have been due to my constant Lucario play (think DTC>jab>jab>ASC>grab), or some other factor (bad opponents, luck), but SHFFLNair>grab at low percents is just too awesome feeling, and seemed to work for around two of 'em from 0% on the folks I tried it against pretty consistently. One hour in and this character is a flipping monster.
Also, I'm excited to hear that the Brawl dair is coming back. That was the first thing my two friends who played Lucas discovered in dismay upon trying out PM for the first time. I don't remember bair, admittedly, but I don't feel as though I will be left in the dark for long on that.
Also, I'm excited to hear that the Brawl dair is coming back. That was the first thing my two friends who played Lucas discovered in dismay upon trying out PM for the first time. I don't remember bair, admittedly, but I don't feel as though I will be left in the dark for long on that.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
It's basically his current Dair, but he spins Backwards and the move itself is a little different. Lucas is definitely a very momentum based character and he does have SEVERAL viable combos into grabs (especially if you use dash grab, as it has extra active frames)
TheGrooseofLegend
Smash Rookie
I can see myself doing jab resets with the brawl bair, but I'm gonna miss the raw power that came from 2.5 bair and how stylish it looked when I use it to end my combos.
2.6 bair is very powerful...you will have no problem killing with it lol.
MysteryRevengerson
IT'S A MYSTERY TO ALL
Watching Calabrel confirmed my feeling on Dair and gave me new faith in his new Bair.
Anyone worried about the new aerials should not be, this is definitely moving forward for Lucas.
Anyone worried about the new aerials should not be, this is definitely moving forward for Lucas.