Lucas General Discussion

[Oracle]

i forgot to vote! personally im more of a fan of the non b reverse because it makes shield pressure a little easier (no risk to accidentally turn around during shine fairs) but i recognize that breverse has more uses so w/e

 

[SpiderMad]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We've decided to stick with the B-reversal for our (not yet released) bug patch. Stay tuned.

What if a taunt switches between the two?

 

[Burnsy]

Seems unnecessarily complicated. I dont think having both is worth the awkwardness of switching it via taunt. Additionally, there's no real way to determine that far in advance which one you are going to need, unless its a match-up thing.

On the other hands, more options is rarely a bad thing, especially when its one that is so easy to ignore, so it would be fine if it worked like that

 

[SpiderMad]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. We've decided to stick with the B-reversal for our (not yet released) bug patch. Stay tuned.

Seems unnecessarily complicated. I dont think having both is worth the awkwardness of switching it via taunt. Additionally, there's no real way to determine that far in advance which one you are going to need, unless its a match-up thing.

On the other hands, more options is rarely a bad thing, especially when its one that is so easy to ignore, so it would be fine if it worked like that

Well if it was possible, that'd be really awesome. I mean it was close to a split argument/vote; and we might be able to see if 1 frame faster does benefit people more when there's both options in their hand. And maybe the shine could just look slightly different with a different plasma pattern to resemble the 1 frame faster one.

 

[Hylian]

i forgot to vote! personally im more of a fan of the non b reverse because it makes shield pressure a little easier (no risk to accidentally turn around during shine fairs) but i recognize that breverse has more uses so w/e

These are my exact thoughts haha, I'm much better at shield pressure with no b-reverse.

 

[HammerTime]

These are my exact thoughts haha, I'm much better at shield pressure with no b-reverse.

I agree with this as well, and of course that extra frame gives faster shield pressure options. I feel like the b reversal is pretty cool especially with lucas' new bair but in reality i think it's more gimmicky than anything where as that extra frame will contribute more to lucas' viability at top level play

 

[Kally Wally]

Only one way to settle this.

Round up all the best Lucas players, give some of them frame-4 magnets and some of them b-reversible magnets, hold a tournament between them, and see who wins.

Rules:
Lucas only
Use your version of magnet in a way that demonstrates it's uses
No items
Final Destination

SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY

 

[Eisen]

Crap. If I'd known there was voting going on, I would have participated. Personally, I messed with b-reversal a lot and as was mentioned, I feel that it's more gimmicky than something that's solidly useful. I don't know; I'm an up-and-coming Lucas but still, to me I'd much rather have the faster magnet and the consistency of 2.6 Lucas.

Shouldn't final voting on this thing kind of waited a while longer? Or is this something that needs to be addressed ASAP? Aka, patch work is being done already.

 

[Shell]

We haven't formally announced anything or set a release date but yes there can be a bug-fix patch with a few extremely minor character tweaks such as this if need be.

I think the taunt-switch might be unprofessional, especially for something as minor as a 1 frame difference nearly imperceptible to the naked eye. It's not necessarily too late to vote, since I do see a bunch of people coming in here late and voicing support for 1-frame-faster-magnet, but if the faster magnet is what the majority of more active tournament Lucas's want then I need to see that consensus emerge relatively soon.

 

[Lukingordex]

Honestly I like both of them,so for me it's ok if the b-reversal returns or if Lucas stays with the 1 frame faster magnet,so you can ignore my vote if you want.

 

[Naughty Pixel]

Cool, now i'll just have to switch to y for djc pkf. Loving the bair though

 

[Eisen]

Speaking of pkf; this is totally off-the-wall but I hear everyone in the community call Lucas side-b "pkf" for "PK freeze" and I find in generally confusing out of context because I immediately and initially think of PK Fire. So could we like, start calling it PKi for PK Ice from now on? Pretty please?

 

[Lukingordex]

So could we like, start calling it PKi for PK Ice from now on? Pretty please?

No offense,but it's a ugly name for a projectile.
Pk freeze all day

 

[SpiderMad]

I think the taunt-switch might be unprofessional, especially for something as minor as a 1 frame difference nearly imperceptible to the naked eye.

It's a fulfilling answer for a seemingly split consensus. Like you mentioned for how the aerial changes aren't necessarily permanent, this would give people the time to clear things up. The b-reverse messes with Multi-shine and other maneuvers like Oracle said for the people who don't want it. Triggering/Perceiving the switch via taunt and pulse image is just an idea; I too don't want a Brawl minus plethora of shenanigans but I find enough merit for giving it a solid run.

 

[Oracle]

I think the other side should just man up. Ill just learn to double shine without pressing back; itll just be a bit harder

 

[T-block]

Guys I played a lot today (should be able to link vids of today in the near future) and I really think we need to give this faster magnet a chance.

I mean, I'm not exactly able to compare to the slower magnet at the present, but I really feel like it does make a difference.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

****, just call it Ice, because at that point, it's three letters like PKF is.

Otherwise, just rely on context clues, no one talks about Ness anyway

I'm not too worried about losing B-reverse, to be honest

 

[Burnsy]

I love that standing grab "salt" in your signature, YarsRevengerson

 

[WeenusChu]

My Lucas is starting to catch up to Burnsy and Oracle.
Maybe it's time to get involved in the scene more.

Popping in for a question regarding the Lucario matchup.
Anyone annoyed about Dash-Attack Jab F-Tilt F-B on shield being an assured grab into 50% damage setup?
Having a tough time figuring out how to respond since he becomes some sort of permanent damage tornado that I cannot interrupt.
Best I can get away with is sometimes CC-D-Tilting out of it.

 

[Burnsy]

Lucarios grounded shield pressure is generally imperfect and doesn't completely lock you down. Find a safe point in his string to roll away or spotdodge if that isn't working.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

@Burnsy it always gets a reaction from my friend, especially with dash grab and its "I eat spotdodges for breakfast" active frames. The fact it was four circles made it perfect.

I haven't played M in a week or so, I should probably boot it up for some tech warm-ups, can't get rusty.

 

[Oracle]

or just don't shield as much

 

[Burnsy]

@Burnsy it always gets a reaction from my friend, especially with dash grab and its "I eat spotdodges for breakfast" active frames. The fact it was four circles made it perfect.

I haven't played M in a week or so, I should probably boot it up for some tech warm-ups, can't get rusty.

Your Lucario friend sounds pretty good.

It's simple advice, but Oracle does make a good point. Shielding too much against Lucario can get you in trouble.

 

[NewJerusalem]

I'd prefer the faster startup

 

[WeenusChu]

@Burnsy and Oracle

Thanks for the advice. I've noticed there have been occasions where I can slip out mid string with a buffered roll.
I do shield too much. I'll try to be more proactive.

 

[Burnsy]

I miss 2.1 uair's awesome disjointed hitbox. It was so good for discouraging platform camping.

 

[Eisen]

Can't say that I was around for 2.1. I think I played 2.0 for like, a week or two. And I was much less involved in the community, not as focused on Lucas, less informed, etc...

However on the subject of variations of Lucas, I cannot stress enough how much better Lucas feels in this build. Like, if he's changed too much (at least in regards to magnet, dair, bair) in 3.0, I'd more than likely drop him for someone like Samus or Kirby. Lucas just feels so complete. I can't explain it, but it's like he makes sense. 2.5 dair was just like one of those moves where I felt like I had to do a specific thing with it, same thing with bair. Bair I don't think was a preferred option for anything except a kill move, and dair was mostly just good for continuing/starting strings. It was basically useless as a meteor, seemed like anyone could cancel it at annoyingly high percents. 2.5 Lucas kind of reminds me of how I feel about playing Falcon. Good, but also kind of tedious/stale/predictable in the sense of necessary executions for certain results. 2.6 aerials are much more flexible, fair included.

I've really never felt so attached to a character and playstyle. I dropped Bowser, Pit, and D3 at the same time once I realized how much I love 2.6 Lucas. The kid is too good; he has his own unique charm and I can't stop experimenting with him.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

That's a cuteass avatar you got @chu

And I'm glad to hear you're liking Lucas, i definitely agree in that the new aerials really did round out Lucas to what I honestly think is very close to how an ideal Lucas should be. He's certainly a lot of fun to train with once you start to get a handle on his moves.

 

[Eisen]

I'm glad my opinion isn't just one of those dumb opinions you see only like one in a million people having.

Yeah, "rounded out" is exactly how I feel about it. Previously, his fair was too weak so it was almost exclusively an approach or a combo setup, but now it can launch at high percents, yet lead into other things in the lower percents. New Bair is a better spacing tool that covers a ton of area, I absolutely love it. But it's not so good that you constantly have to gravitate to it for one thing (ala 2.5's). Nair is as good as ever, uair remains as a stringing/vertical launch move as it should... he does need SOME of those moves but I felt like two of those kinds of moves (2.5 uair and fair)--in addition to dair being generally lackluster and generic-- prevented him from being in that "perfect/awesome" range.

The kid is so good at pressure now. I feel like that's one of his best tools, and the stuff I mentioned really helps those things. It was harder to pressure someone because half of his moveset was focused on hard kill moves, and half was focused on really good pressure, and it didn't seem to blend well, if that makes any sense.

 

[Lumenebrae]

Could we perhaps test somehow to see how the old magnet works with the new changes? I feel like It'd be better to experience both before choosing, especially with the new bair/dair.

Maybe provide a 2.6 FitLucas.pac with just the 2.5 magnet for people to experiment and compare with? I would do it myself, but I have no idea how to edit movesets.

Just a suggestion.

 

[Sartron]

Could we perhaps test somehow to see how the old magnet works with the new changes? I feel like It'd be better to experience both before choosing, especially with the new bair/dair. Maybe provide a 2.6 FitLucas.pac with just the 2.5 magnet for people to experiment and compare with? I would do it myself, but I have no idea how to edit movesets.

Just a suggestion.

Here you are, this should work. Tested it in Dolphin and it seems fine.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5g65jf255u7moay/FitLucas.pac

 

[NeonApophis]

I think the B-reverse is definitely more useful. If you've only been using it on the ground (maybe only accidentally), then the speed increase might seem more useful. However, b-reverse aerial magnet gives Lucas so much extra aerial mobility, and allows him to always be facing and moving in the right direction. This is really beneficial for controlling the neutral game, continuing combos, and recovering more easily.

Some things you can do with it:

• Short hop toward the opponent, b-reverse magnet as a fake out or avoidance technique, then jump out of the magnet and either djc bair, djc side-b, or just air dodge out of the jump into a waveland. Then if you successfully baited your opponent into doing something, you can punish them really easily.

• If you're comboing, especially with nair, or even just moving around the stage, sometimes the opponent will end up behind you while you are moving forward in the air. Doing the turn around that exists in 2.6 doesn't shift your momentum, so you can't always reach an opponent that is behind you. The reverse allows you to hit them, and carry your momentum into them so that you can easily combo into a djc aerial (probably an up air). This is a very important tool for chasing down opponents while they are trying to escape your combos.

• Recovery also benefits in a similar way. If you jump off the stage to gimp someone, you can use the b-reverse to shift your momentum and move toward the stage while you're recovering. This isn't possible with the turn around magnet, and the current magnet has the additional disadvantage of being more difficult to do, which can end up with you just doing a side b and falling to your death as you're trying to turn around so that you can use your tether.

Basically, the turn around magnet can be used as aerial dash dance that also hits the opponent and leads into djc aerials. It's not as easily quantifiable as having a one frame shorter start up, but I think it gives Lucas some of the best aerial mobility in the game. In addition to thinking that the b-reverse makes Lucas better, I also like the move a lot more. I think it is much more interesting to give a character additional strategic options rather than just making an already fast move slightly faster. The faster magnet doesn't really give Lucas any new options, but taking away the b-reversal limits his mobility and aerial options significantly. I think a lot of people may not care about the b-reversal because they just don't use aerial magnets that much, but I think SH magnet is one of the best tools in the entire game, since Lucas has so many amazing options out of that move. I think that once people start incorporating SH magnets more into their games, the additional option of doing a b-reversal will become more valued. I have a post in this thread all about why SH magnet is so useful, and it seems to have helped some people out, so I would recommend reading it if you don't already use SH magnet a lot.

 

[Lumenebrae]

B-Reverse also allows the wavebounced magnet, which I think has some use in projectile absorption and/or reaching someone with magnet, and bouncing back to follow them. I mean I'm just saying. For a while I didn't realize that B-Reverse and Wavebounce were tied together. I think it might help just a little bit both ways if the grounded magnet started faster, but the aerial magnet didn't?

Here you are, this should work. Tested it in Dolphin and it seems fine.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/5g65jf255u7moay/FitLucas.pac

Thanks, could not figure out how to do anything in SmashAttacks. Works perfectly.

 

[Burnsy]

I think it might help just a little bit both ways if the grounded magnet started faster, but the aerial magnet didn't?

This. I like this.

 

[SpiderMad]

Seems good, alerting Shadic

Look

 

[Sartron]

I think it might help just a little bit both ways if the grounded magnet started faster, but the aerial magnet didn't?

Brilliant. This is probably the best compromise, and it feels great. Having the aggressive pressure of the faster magnet on the ground combined with the aerial mobility of the b reverse would be amazing in the next official version.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/358o8ixkzpokljc/FitLucas (aerial wavebounce).pac

 

[SpiderMad]

Yeah it seems like the best.

I think the other side should just man up. Ill just learn to double shine without pressing back; itll just be a bit harder

I agree with you and stuff but it can easily mess up a lot more than double shine: jumping forward magnets to WD Back and stuff. It's easy to underestimate how the B-reverse can screw other actions unless you slow/care them down to specifically not trigger it.

 

[Malart]

Hey, has anyone here experimented with jumping up through a platform from underneath, Double Jump Landing as you pass through it, and immediately doing, say, an smash/tilt/dash/shield? When you do it right, you immediately land on the way up with only the 4 frame landing lag from a regular landing. I can try to upload a video of it if someone wants. It's as dangerous as 5 fully grown bears. Just looks like lucas stops moving upwards and immediately starts a smash. I've been experimenting with it and it works REALLY well on certain stages. Best place I've seen to learn the exact spacing for initiating the double jump is Dreamland. You full hop up to the center platform, and pretty much at the very peak of your jump, you do the double jump, and that little up/down jerking motion at the beginning will cause you to move up slightly and then land immediately.

 

[SpiderMad]

I think I have, but I originally liked Side-b more for it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJJAHxx-QbU

 

[Burnsy]

Using djc pkf for platform autocancels was indeed a very good use of the move. With the big change in djc pkf timing, I imagine that doing it consistently is a lot more difficult now, and perhaps not worth the trouble. I'll play around with it when I play tonight.

Which reminds me, a couple weeks ago I said that I would test out the new reduced lag from absorbing energy projectiles. I forgot to write about my finding here: In addition to its already lengthy lag, the aerial version now has "recoil" that stops your forward momentum and pushes you backward when you absorb.

SH magnet is no longer an option for approaching through energy projectile spam.

Ouch. that's a pretty hard nerf that's going to affect a few MUs if you ask me. The only projectiles I feel are worth absorbing these days are Aura Bomb and Solarbeam, or any other similar projectile that will net Lucas lots of health. Others are usually not worth the meager reward while putting yourself at risk