Social Lucario Social: Aura Dog Days of Summer

[Superior Spider-Mew]

Do you guys think the edgeguarding aura sphere trick will be as effective with Mewtwo? (assuming he has the same neutral b from Melee)

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Do you guys think the edgeguarding aura sphere trick will be as effective with Mewtwo? (assuming he has the same neutral b from Melee)

Depends on how high he holds his Shadow Ball. If he holds it as high as Melee, he's going to get hit a lot if he attempts it.

 

[Eeveecario]

So we still do not know how many frames Aura Sphere scales in regards to hitstun, huh?

OK guys, get ready for another lesson.

Before starting of, THIS IS MY INTERPRETATION of the information I've found through many sources, and final results may vary or be completely wrong. This is only for illustration purposes ONLY, and it might be different from actual game-play.

First, some theory about hitstun: (Sorry... it's important)

Hitstun is a period of time after being hit by an attack that a character is unable to act outside of directional influence or teching. It is directly dependent on knockback, so an attack like Falcon Punch will have more hitstun than Thunder Jolt.(...). Each Smash game has a programmed value that is multiplied by the amount of knockback received to determine the amount of frames a character is locked in hitstun after being hit (for example,Melee has a hitstun multiplier of 0.4 frames per unit of knockback, so a hit that deals 100 units of knockback will leave the target in hitstun for 40 frames). THIS IS IMPORTANT FOR NOW.

We will need the knockback formula, which is...

Spoiler: Knockback formula FROM BRAWL/MELEE (Wiki)

* The formula for smash 4 hasn't been found yet.

Imagine the following situation:

• Lucario at 95%
• Mario at 70%
• 1 stock each, FD (In order to avoid any gravity weird effects or stock advantage)
• AND RAGE IS NOT CONSIDERED HERE.
• Hit Mario with a 'tick' of ASC (Which, at that aura of Lucario, would deal 1.18%/hit)

By this, we have the following variable values:

• p = Percentage of target AFTER adding damage (70+1.18 = 71.18)
• d = Damage dealt (1.18)
• w = Weight of the target. (Mario's weight in smash 4 = 98)
• s = Knockback scaling (or growth, KBG) divided by 100 (100/100 = 1)
• b = Base Knockback (or KBG) (10)

  • Hitbox_02B(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x50, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0xA, Size=2.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, 0x15, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x8, 0x3, 0x1, 0x0, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, )

  • 0x64 in HEX = 100 in DEC.
  • 0xA in HEX = 10 in DEC.
• r = Ratio of a lot of factors (Handicap, Smash Charge, Crouching, etc.) (1)

Finally, resolving the Knockback formula should give us:
Knockback = 45.4291348.

In order to calculate the hitstun frames, we need the ratio of hitstun for Smash 4 (Which haven't found yet, we'll be using Melee/Brawl instead = x0.4 frames per knockback unit, as the quote mentioned above).
HitStun frames = Knockback * 0.4 = 45.4291348 * 0.4 = 18.1716 Frames = 18 Frames (rounded down).

BUT, I've previously stated ASC has 8 Frames hitStun by default, which I really don't know if it is added, multiplied, follows a formula or completely ignored at all.
EDIT: Have been digging more info, and apparently that parameter DOESN'T MEAN HitStun frames at all, (or maybe a minimum, default one?)

In conclusion OF MY INTERPRETATION!, you should have around 18 Frames window to combo ASC -> USmash IN THIS SITUATION.
Your combo option is HEAVILY dependent of your foe's damage, and aura helps by increasing damage dealt, but only as a Small factor.

Spoiler: BONUS

And you would see me like...

Bla bla bla...

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

OK guys, get ready for another lesson.

Before starting of, THIS IS MY INTERPRETATION of the information I've found through many sources, and final results may vary or be completely wrong. This is only for illustration purposes ONLY, and it might be different from actual game-play.

First, some theory about hitstun: (Sorry... it's important)


We will need the knockback formula, which is...

Spoiler: Knockback formula FROM BRAWL/MELEE (Wiki)

* The formula for smash 4 hasn't been found yet.

Imagine the following situation:

• Lucario at 95%
• Mario at 70%
• 1 stock each, FD (In order to avoid any gravity weird effects or stock advantage)
• AND RAGE IS NOT CONSIDERED HERE.
• Hit Mario with a 'tick' of ASC (Which, at that aura of Lucario, would deal 1.18%/hit)

By this, we have the following variable values:

• p = Percentage of target AFTER adding damage (70+1.18 = 71.18)
• d = Damage dealt (1.18)
• w = Weight of the target. (Mario's weight in smash 4 = 98)
• s = Knockback scaling (or growth, KBG) divided by 100 (100/100 = 1)
• b = Base Knockback (or KBG) (10)
  • 0x64 in HEX = 100 in DEC.
  • 0xA in HEX = 10 in DEC.
• r = Ratio of a lot of factors (Handicap, Smash Charge, Crouching, etc.) (1)

Finally, resolving the Knockback formula should give us:
Knockback = 45.4291348.

In order to calculate the hitstun frames, we need the ratio of hitstun for Smash 4 (Which haven't found yet, we'll be using Melee/Brawl instead = x0.4 frames per knockback unit, as the quote mentioned above).
HitStun frames = Knockback * 0.4 = 45.4291348 * 0.4 = 18.1716 Frames = 18 Frames (rounded down).

BUT, I've previously stated ASC has 8 Frames hitStun by default, which I really don't know if it is added, multiplied, follows a formula or completely ignored at all.

In conclusion OF MY INTERPRETATION!, you should have around 18 Frames window to combo ASC -> USmash IN THIS SITUATION.
Your combo option is HEAVILY dependent of your foe's damage, and aura helps by increasing damage dealt, but only as a Small factor.

Spoiler: BONUS

And you would see me like...

Bla bla bla...

Wow. Thank you. So it does look like a combo if the stars align correctly...I know this took a lot of work, but if you have time would you mind calculating for Lucario at 120, 140, and 190 vs. a Mario at 50, 40, and 30 respectively? If it is a true combo vs. a Mario at max Aura when he is at lowish percents... This is huge.

Anyone know if anyone made a calculator for this? It would be amazing to have.

 

[Eeveecario]

Wow. Thank you. So it does look like a combo if the stars align correctly...I know this took a lot of work, but if you have time would you mind calculating for Lucario at 120, 140, and 190 vs. a Mario at 50, 40, and 30 respectively? If it is a true combo vs. a Mario at max Aura when he is at lowish percents... This is huge.

Anyone know if anyone made a calculator for this? It would be amazing to have.

Lemme check if I get it correctly, you would like to check

Case 1: Lucario 120% vs Mario 50%
Case 2: Lucario 140% vs Mario 40%
Case 3: Lucario 190% vs Mario 30%​

3 Cases then, or the whole 9 combinations possible?

Aaaand about the calculator, haven't found any yet (All are done by hand). =(

 

[BugCatcherWill]

@ Eeveecario And they say we never use math outside of school! Nice job!

 

[Space thing]

Based on the formula, the difference between 120% and 190% Lucario barely matters at all for hitstun (each hit does like 0.9%-1.2%). Mario's percent matters a lot more: By the formula, we get about 13~ frames of hitstun when he's at 30% and around 15-16~ frames when he's at 50%. Training mode registers it as combo when Mario is at around 50% and Lucario is at 190%, but not when Mario is much below that. I didn't calculate rage when I did this because I have know idea how much that increases BKB. Move decay might make this slightly less reliable.

So yea, assuming the formula is accurate, expect it to start to combo at around 50-70% if done perfectly, but you might want to wait until 80%-100% to be safe. If the formula is wrong, idk. I'd be cautious with it against anyway with a frame 3 nair, but otherwise experience tells me it's pretty reliable.

 

[Kami~]

OK guys, get ready for another lesson.

Before starting of, THIS IS MY INTERPRETATION of the information I've found through many sources, and final results may vary or be completely wrong. This is only for illustration purposes ONLY, and it might be different from actual game-play.

First, some theory about hitstun: (Sorry... it's important)


We will need the knockback formula, which is...

Spoiler: Knockback formula FROM BRAWL/MELEE (Wiki)

* The formula for smash 4 hasn't been found yet.

Imagine the following situation:

• Lucario at 95%
• Mario at 70%
• 1 stock each, FD (In order to avoid any gravity weird effects or stock advantage)
• AND RAGE IS NOT CONSIDERED HERE.
• Hit Mario with a 'tick' of ASC (Which, at that aura of Lucario, would deal 1.18%/hit)

By this, we have the following variable values:

• p = Percentage of target AFTER adding damage (70+1.18 = 71.18)
• d = Damage dealt (1.18)
• w = Weight of the target. (Mario's weight in smash 4 = 98)
• s = Knockback scaling (or growth, KBG) divided by 100 (100/100 = 1)
• b = Base Knockback (or KBG) (10)
  • 0x64 in HEX = 100 in DEC.
  • 0xA in HEX = 10 in DEC.
• r = Ratio of a lot of factors (Handicap, Smash Charge, Crouching, etc.) (1)

Finally, resolving the Knockback formula should give us:
Knockback = 45.4291348.

In order to calculate the hitstun frames, we need the ratio of hitstun for Smash 4 (Which haven't found yet, we'll be using Melee/Brawl instead = x0.4 frames per knockback unit, as the quote mentioned above).
HitStun frames = Knockback * 0.4 = 45.4291348 * 0.4 = 18.1716 Frames = 18 Frames (rounded down).

BUT, I've previously stated ASC has 8 Frames hitStun by default, which I really don't know if it is added, multiplied, follows a formula or completely ignored at all.

In conclusion OF MY INTERPRETATION!, you should have around 18 Frames window to combo ASC -> USmash IN THIS SITUATION.
Your combo option is HEAVILY dependent of your foe's damage, and aura helps by increasing damage dealt, but only as a Small factor.

Spoiler: BONUS

And you would see me like...

Bla bla bla...

take back what i said, training mode never considers it a combo at %'s below 60-70 ish. So I guess the 15-16 frame jc upsmash is enough for the supposd 18 frame hitstun, considering it a combo. So this technique has a 1-3 frame leniency and they have to be directly above you or inside you. But I wonder if staling outside of training mode is a thing since asc hit in multiple hits quickly. It could do that then quickly knock the hitstun down lower than 18 frames making this "combo" not real at all. SO MANY FACTORS WHY. goodjob though

 

[Eeveecario]

@ Eeveecario And they say we never use math outside of school! Nice job!

Thanks! =D Those who actually said that might have no idea what they're talking about.

Based on the formula, the difference between 120% and 190% Lucario barely matters at all for hitstun (each hit does like 0.9%-1.2%). Mario's percent matters a lot more: By the formula, we get about 13~ frames of hitstun when he's at 30% and around 15-16~ frames when he's at 50%. Training mode registers it as combo when Mario is at around 50% and Lucario is at 190%, but not when Mario is much below that. I didn't calculate rage when I did this because I have know idea how much that increases BKB. Move decay might make this slightly less reliable.

So yea, assuming the formula is accurate, expect it to start to combo at around 50-70% if done perfectly, but you might want to wait until 80%-100% to be safe. If the formula is wrong, idk. I'd be cautious with it against anyway with a frame 3 nair, but otherwise experience tells me it's pretty reliable.

Thanks for the help =) Much appreciated.

Just a minor correction, pummeling damage goes between 0.66% (no aura) ~ 1.7% (MAX aura), so the damage dealt would be:

• 120% = 1.3168% dmg
• 140% = 1.4263% dmg
• 190% = 1.7% dmg

But since it heavily depends on Mario's damage, it might only give us a frame or two more or less.

18 frame hitstun? no, lol

Why not? The game runs at 60 FPS Graphically and Logically, that would give you 1/3 of a second to input an up-smash in that situation. And the most perfect input you could do has 16 Frames + Input delay frames length.

 

[Kami~]

Thanks! =D Those who actually said that might have no idea what they're talking about.

Thanks for the help =) Much appreciated.

Just a minor correction, pummeling damage goes between 0.66% (no aura) ~ 1.7% (MAX aura), so the damage dealt would be:

• 120% = 1.3168% dmg
• 140% = 1.4263% dmg
• 190% = 1.7% dmg

But since it heavily depends on Mario's damage, it might only give us a frame or two more or less.

Why not? The game runs at 60 FPS Graphically and Logically, that would give you 1/3 of a second to input an up-smash in that situation. And the most perfect input you could do has 16 Frames + Input delay frames length.

i edited LOOK AGAIN

 

[Eeveecario]

i edited LOOK AGAIN

Sorry man just noticed, I'll take it back too.

 

[Kami~]

jesus you only need 1 tiny asc charge hit to link it to jc usmash. If you bring it out then quickly jc people might not know what even hit them

 

[Eeveecario]

jesus you only need 1 tiny asc charge hit to link it to jc usmash. If you bring it out then quickly jc people might not know what even hit them

What Which were the damages?

 

[Croi]

But I wonder if staling outside of training mode is a thing since asc hit in multiple hits quickly.

Staling is based on input rather than number of hits. Otherwise multihit attacks like Mario's dair would stale to nothing/refresh everything in a single hit. Since it's one input to start charging AS, it's one stale/refresh.

But that makes me wonder, are ASC and AS considered one input or two?

 

[Eeveecario]

Staling is based on input rather than number of hits. Otherwise multihit attacks like Mario's dair would stale to nothing/refresh everything in a single hit. Since it's one input to start charging AS, it's one stale/refresh.

But that makes me wonder, are ASC and AS considered one input or two?

If it is as you stated, they should be considered as a single input.

EDIT:
Actually, is too deep to say something for now.

EDIT 2:
Is Marth's Dancing Blade is considered a stale move, even if you vary the combo? If not, same principle might happen

 

[Space thing]

Actually move decay shouldn't make much difference at all in this case (again assuming the formula is accurate). As far as I know, move decay just reduces damage and because ASC barely does any damage anyway, it doesn't make much difference. Literally, I could plug in 0 for the attack's damage into the formula and it makes no significant difference. Though, I don't know how the game handles fractional frames. Depending on how that works, it could maybe reduce hitstun by a single frame, rarely if ever. Again, this also means that aura shouldn't make much of a difference (though the size of the hitbox definitely should matter).

Rage on the other hand looks like it could be far more relevant in this case (for our advantage mind you).

*Disclaimer: I don't know the inner workings of this game very well, so I could be completely wrong somewhere; take what a say with a grain of salt.

 

[Karnu]

All this is amazing Eveecario, great job and thank you!

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Mwahahaha @ Kami~ I told you it was a combo.

@ Eeveecario yes, those were the percents I was wondering in regards to vs. Mario.

Any guaranteed shenanigans even if it requires frame perfection sounds great to me.

 

[Enemis]

Does anyone think that since your hurt box becomes smaller when you perform u-smash (the way he sort of crouches before he throws out the attack) that you'll have a better chance of landing it before one of these frame 3 nairs reach you? I suppose its also dependent on their position when you use it, and im not entirely sure how the priority would work if you challenged it, and that could be dependent on how much aura you have right?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Does anyone think that since your hurt box becomes smaller when you perform u-smash (the way he sort of crouches before he throws out the attack) that you'll have a better chance of landing it before one of these frame 3 nairs reach you? I suppose its also dependent on their position when you use it, and im not entirely sure how the priority would work if you challenged it, and that could be dependent on how much aura you have right?

Unless if it is laser priority or just cancels everything out... moves that do 9% or more wins.

 

[Deez1]

..........

 

[Deez1]

..........

 

[Eeveecario]

Case 1: Lucario 120% vs Mario 50%
Case 2: Lucario 140% vs Mario 40%
Case 3: Lucario 190% vs Mario 30%​

Case 1: 16 Frames
Case 2: 15.20 Frames
Case 3: 14.51 Frames

Here you go, I would say by now that the more damaged your foe, the more hitstun frames, aura just helps to do more damage, and indireclty raises hit-stun frames as a small factor.
(In the case of the ASC hit).

INHATE THIS WITH EVERYONE ONE. THE SIDE B IS NOT A LASER, ITS A FREAKING BEAM OF AURA. AN AURA BEAM.

ARRRRRGGGGGHHH

*Unexpected reaction image here* :l

 

[Sunnysunny]

What is jc?

It's short for "Jump cancel"
Normally, when you shield you're locked into holding it out for 11 frames, and it takes about 6 frames when ya drop it.
However, if you buffer a jump immediately out of shield, you can cancel the lag of it~

Also god damn Eevee that's amazing!
So a good rough estimate for hitstun is 1 extra frame of stun for every 10% racked up on the opponent? Would that be a safe guess?

 

[Croi]

What is jc?

Let me tell you more about our good friend Jesus Christ

 

[Rysir]

Now that I learned how to do this I am going to be observing myself failing miserably when trying to perform it.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Now that I learned how to do this I am going to be observing myself failing miserably when trying to perform it.

Don't worry, I'm having troubles pulling off the "Reverse Aura Momentum", too.

But I guess that's due to the fact that I'm using my 3DS with the Circle Pad...

 

[Deez1]

..........

 

[BugCatcherWill]

CAN ONE OF YOU PLEASE PLEASE HELP ME OUT WITH THIS PROBLEM.

As we know, Lucario's Smash attacks can't hit people while on the edge. But the confusing thing is that sometimes I actually get the hit. What the hell. It's not possible to hit them but yet I do. Can someone please help?

When someone hangs on a ledge, they have about a second or so of invincibility before they can get hit. I assume you hit them with a smash attack during their vulnerability period. Especially if their head is sticking out like for Ness and Yoshi

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm never good with learning teching too well.

Though this stuff with Aura Sphere is interesting.

 

[Croi]

I wonder how Lucario would look in white and gold

 

[Karnu]

I HATE THIS WITH EVERYONE ONE. THE SIDE B IS NOT A LASER, ITS A FREAKING BEAM OF AURA. AN AURA BEAM.

ARRRRRGGGGGHHH

Its a flare of energy fired from a palm.

Also when he said laser priority he meant referring it to being like the priority of Falco's laser.


ALSO ALSO
I got another Lucario Amiibo

 

[AlexoftheAura]

I wonder how Lucario would look in white and gold

I wish I could report you for this.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I can't believe that's a meme. At least maymays these days don't last very long except fnaf.
Even shiba has disappeared.

 

[Eeveecario]

OK Guys!

I've developed a tool which will help us calculate some frame stun data, and can be found here:
It's my first time posting something public on the web, so please don't go edit it and break it xD.
If you can't you can download it.

Again, this values are calculated FROM MY INTERPRETATION, so it can be completely wrong in actual game-play.
You have been warned!.

Also, I don't know you guys, but maybe it can be a potential tool, should we keep it private or try to post it on the main forum?

IMPORTANT INFORMATION:
I should give credit to @ MythTrainerInfinity who started the aura damage chart, and his info come really helpful.
Credits to @Thinkaman, who has resumed the info to a "short" file, and both him and @Indigo Jeans who actually teached me how to read some of the data. (Along with many others).
Credits to @Dantarion, who shared the raw frame data.

Also god damn Eevee that's amazing!
So a good rough estimate for hitstun is 1 extra frame of stun for every 10% racked up on the opponent? Would that be a safe guess?

Help yourself with this tool, you can see the result for your own now =).

EDIT:
If you want to always see damages rows and columns (as for excel 2013),

1. In your view window, adjust it so you can see your desired 'fixed row' and 'fixed column'.
2. Select the cell D35.
3. Go to view -> Freeze -> Freeze panels
4. Done! (If you want to unfreeze, repeat the same process)

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Yeah! Science!

Also, I'm going to a Smash 4 tourney tomorrow and will plan on using mainly Lucario. Do you guys have any last-minute advice/tips/tricks/encouragement, as well as insight on certain MU's? (especially Diddy since I predict loads of those will be there)

Also also,

I got another Lucario Amiibo

Sooooooooo since you have two Lucario amiibo's, would you be interested in selling one of them? I can pay in high-quality chocolate.

 

[LimitCrown]

I downloaded the Excel file. The chart is certainly very useful. I've made a few minor corrections to the file after downloading it:

For the cells in Column C that display the values of Lucario's damage multiplier, starting with cell C35, I changed the formula to be f(x)=IF($B35<70, 0.17*$B35/35+0.66, IF($B35<=190, 0.07*$B35/12+3.55/6, 1.7)) I also enclosed the formulas of the cells that display the hitstun values with the FLOOR.MATH function because the result of the formula is rounded down.

Additionally, I slightly modified the table so that it can calculate the hitstun values of moves with set knockback. However, it probably wasn't a very necessary thing to add.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

OK Guys!

I've developed a tool which will help us calculate some frame stun data, and can be found here:
It's my first time posting something public on the web, so please don't go edit it and break it xD.
If you can't you can download it.

Again, this values are calculated FROM MY INTERPRETATION, so it can be completely wrong in actual game-play.
You have been warned!.

Also, I don't know you guys, but maybe it can be a potential tool, should we keep it private or try to post it on the main forum?

IMPORTANT INFORMATION:
I should give credit to @ MythTrainerInfinity who started the aura damage chart, and his info come really helpful.
Credits to @Thinkaman, who has resumed the info to a "short" file, and both him and @Indigo Jeans who actually teached me how to read some of the data. (Along with many others).
Credits to @Dantarion, who shared the raw frame data.



Help yourself with this tool, you can see the result for your own now =).

EDIT:
If you want to always see damages rows and columns (as for excel 2013),

1. In your view window, adjust it so you can see your desired 'fixed row' and 'fixed column'.
2. Select the cell D35.
3. Go to view -> Freeze -> Freeze panels
4. Done! (If you want to unfreeze, repeat the same process)

Well done, can't wait to bust this out when I get home. I would suggest putting it in the main forum after we use it for a bit (to help work out any kinks).

I downloaded the Excel file. The chart is certainly very useful. I've made a few minor corrections to the file after downloading it:

For the cells in Column C that display the values of Lucario's damage multiplier, starting with cell C35, I changed the formula to be f(x)=IF($B35<70, 0.17*$B35/35+0.66, IF($B35<=190, 0.07*$B35/12+3.55/6, 1.7)) I also enclosed the formulas of the cells that display the hitstun values with the FLOOR.MATH function because the result of the formula is rounded down.

Additionally, I slightly modified the table so that it can calculate the hitstun values of moves with set knockback. However, it probably wasn't a very necessary thing to add.

Pardon me if I am wrong (since I am on my phone I can't tell), but I do not see your updated spreadsheet.

 

[LimitCrown]

Pardon me if I am wrong (since I am on my phone I can't tell), but I do not see your updated spreadsheet.

I can't edit the file directly from dropbox because I'm not the original uploader of it. However, I downloaded the file and I, after making the few changes, have uploaded it to my dropbox account. Here is a link to the version of the spreadsheet with my edits.

 

[~Radiance~]

the fact that i said b reversal ASC on the ledge when people are trying to get up is a cheesy mixup may be incorrect. it actually may be viable it seems. Lately ive been going for a lot of wavebounced ASC's off of sh's and canceling it to USmash OoS and its been working. pretty hype, nice looking into that math for us eevee

also hai slsuh its FZ, fancy seeing you here