Social Lucario Social: Aura Dog Days of Summer

[Loota]

You people are sooo late

But yeah, it's success is highly reliant on the opponents location in relation to us, the status of their midair jump and their fastest aerials. For example, I've gotten hit by Luigi's nair a lot when trying it but I don't think he's able to hit us if he's on the tip of the charge but again, then he's probably able to jump out of it. It still a reaction based trap on worst case scenario and the opponent has to be pretty much perfect to escape.

Still, some actual frame data would be cool to have.

 

[Kami~]

You people are sooo late

But yeah, it's success is highly reliant on the opponents location in relation to us, the status of their midair jump and their fastest aerials. For example, I've gotten hit by Luigi's nair a lot when trying it but I don't think he's able to hit us if he's on the tip of the charge but again, then he's probably able to jump out of it. It still a reaction based trap on worst case scenario and the opponent has to be pretty much perfect to escape.

Still, some actual frame data would be cool to have.

yeah id really like frame data on the different positions of how they're trapped in AS charge to upsmash

and if luigi is high enough in the charge maybe atleast upsmash would trade with his nair and we'd win

 

[Eeveecario]

Can you be more specific about the frames?

By this I could mean like, how may frames are between every ASC hit, Up Smash delay and stuff like that? You mean that?

 

[Kami~]

Can you be more specific about the frames?

By this I could mean like, how may frames are between every ASC hit, Up Smash delay and stuff like that? You mean that?

how much asc histun is between the last asc hit and the first hit of upsmash to see if it's a true combo or if training mode is lying

 

[Zee'mmoro]

yeah id really like frame data on the different positions of how they're trapped in AS charge to upsmash

and if luigi is high enough in the charge maybe atleast upsmash would trade with his nair and we'd win

We might be in trouble though if the green man sprouts a down-b though, no? If the player manages to do it, would they cancel each other out, or would u-smash power through it?

 

[Eeveecario]

how much asc histun is between the last asc hit and the first hit of upsmash to see if it's a true combo or if training mode is lying

Ok, found the info.
A cording to this information provided by Dantarion.

Aura Sphere is looping indefinitely every 5 Frames, 3 active and 2 empty. (About the hit-stun, I need to know which value is it)
UpSmash charges at Frame 15, First hit at Frame 16 ~ Frame 17 and Hard Hit as early as Frame 19 ~ Frame 23.

In conclusion, we have 16 Frames in the best case and 21 Frames worst case as gap to land the first hit. The only important and missing information is the Hit stun value.

EDIT: Found it!
By checking Marth's Forward Smash Data, which is:

Hitbox_026(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=13.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x50, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x37, Size=3.500000, Z=1.000000, Y=0.000000, X=2.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=0.700000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x1, GID=0x0, Bone=0x16, Damage=13.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x50, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x37, Size=3.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=1.000000, X=0.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=0.700000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x2, GID=0x0, Bone=0xD, Damage=13.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x50, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x37, Size=2.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=0.700000, SDI=1.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x3, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )
Hitbox_026(ID=0x3, GID=0x0, Bone=0x3EA, Damage=18.000000, Angle=0x169, KBG=0x50, WKB=0x0, BKB=0x50, Size=3.500000, Z=1.000000, Y=0.000000, X=7.300000, Element=0x2, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.500000, SDI=0.000000, unk_=0x1, unk_=0x1, ShieldDamage=0x0, 0x2, 0x8, 0x3, 0x1, 0xA, )

The last one being Marth Sword's Tip, which causes more damage and stun.

Lucario's Aura Sphere Ball data is

Hitbox_02B(ID=0x0, GID=0x0, Bone=0x0, Damage=1.000000, Angle=0x50, KBG=0x64, WKB=0x0, BKB=0xA, Size=2.000000, Z=0.000000, Y=0.000000, X=0.000000, Element=0x15, Tripping=0x0, Hitlag=1.000000, SDI=1.000000, ???=0x0, ???=0x0, ShieldDamage=0x0, ???=0x0, 0x8, 0x3, 0x1, 0x0, 0x3F, 0x0, 0xF, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, )

Hit-stun is 8 Frames! minding the damage your foe has, it could be either a string or True combo!

 

[BugCatcherWill]

So what you're saying is that you can get the upsmash off as long as the opponent doesn't use a move that's less than 7 frames? What MU's would this rule out, then?

 

[Sunnysunny]

I hate you sunny.

<333
I was just hungry for a breakthrough.
Too many matches have gone by when I havn't gotten **** from pinning people down with charge.

So what you're saying is that you can get the upsmash off as long as the opponent doesn't use a move that's less than 7 frames? What MU's would this rule out, then?

A lot of characters. Most everyone has an aerial that can jump out of that, however, stun scales with damage, so it's only 7 frames to wiggle around at low percent. As there percentage gets higher so does there hitstun frame by frame. So as eeveecario said it goes from being a string to a true combo. Although I wish I knew just exactly how hitstun scaled. ._.; Characters with fast aerials like Weegee won't get hit by this at low-mid percents.

To add to this, i'm sure this goes without saying, but you most definitely wanna u-smash as quickly as you can upon hitconfirm. The higher they get up, the less time you have for it to connect sense the first hit of u-smash comes out close to the ground.

ALSO SHOUT OUTS TO @ Eeveecario WITH THAT SMASH SCIENCE ****!
Had no damn clue how to figure out the strict frame data of this.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

A lot of characters. Most everyone has an aerial that can jump out of that, however, stun scales with damage, so it's only 7 frames to wiggle around at low percent. As there percentage gets higher so does there hitstun frame by frame. So as eeveecario said it goes from being a string to a true combo. Although I wish I knew just exactly how hitstun scaled. ._.;

To add to this, i'm sure this goes without saying, but you most definitely wanna u-smash as quickly as you can upon hitconfirm. The higher they get up, the less time you have for it to connect sense the first hit of u-smash comes out close to the ground.

ALSO SHOUT OUTS TO @ Eeveecario WITH THAT SMASH SCIENCE ****!
Had no damn clue how to figure out the strict frame data of this.

So, since it's not down to an exact science how about we do some guesses along with trial and error?

I'm sure characters can get out of this combo/string if they're smart, but let's talk about MU's that can punish accordingly. I'm pretty sure Jiggs does the best against this as she can easily jump out before the upsmash connects, or could just rest before you upsmash (because rest has, like, 1 frame startup).

 

[Sunnysunny]

I'm all for looking up frame data, but I don't think we should be worrying about getting rested just yet. Not to go into a theory craft tangent but if a jiggs does figure out she can do a rest attempt on improper u-smashes, any other future rests become a 50/50 mix up. If we should shield after seeing the first rest attempt it's a death sentence the next time she tries it. I think that's getting a little too meta atm though, because i'm pretty sure no non-lucario player is convinced we have anything like this.

If however you are attempting this in tourney, and let's say reversal moves such as rest, or mario's up-b are being attempted, your best answer is to shield and punish with whatever.

Match up wise, just anyone with quick aerials like Luigi, Mario, Yoshi, ness, ect are the ones to worry about. When they have options that are 2-3 frames it can be dicey at lower percents.

But even then I wanna stress that i'm pretty damn sure this is a true combo at higher percents.

The best way to test the viability of this is probably just having someone go as luigi, go to 80-100 percent and have them mash n-air a few times.

I'll do it later if no one else do, but atm i've got no one to play with. Wah. - w-

 

[Eeveecario]

<333
I was just hungry for a breakthrough.
Too many matches have gone by when I havn't gotten **** from pinning people down with charge.



A lot of characters. Most everyone has an aerial that can jump out of that, however, stun scales with damage, so it's only 7 frames to wiggle around at low percent. As there percentage gets higher so does there hitstun frame by frame. So as eeveecario said it goes from being a string to a true combo. Although I wish I knew just exactly how hitstun scaled. ._.; Characters with fast aerials like Weegee won't get hit by this at low-mid percents.

To add to this, i'm sure this goes without saying, but you most definitely wanna u-smash as quickly as you can upon hitconfirm. The higher they get up, the less time you have for it to connect sense the first hit of u-smash comes out close to the ground.

ALSO SHOUT OUTS TO @ Eeveecario WITH THAT SMASH SCIENCE ****!
Had no damn clue how to figure out the strict frame data of this.

Thanks @ Sunnysunny !

But I can't take full credits, guys from this thread shared some of their knowledge and time to explain me how to read the instructions (As they have discovered).
And surfing on the web I found that value can potentialy be the HitStun, after that I researched Marth to check changes and finally filling up some voids in the Lucario Data...

=) then again, hope it can help you sometime.

 

[Enemis]

<333


To add to this, i'm sure this goes without saying, but you most definitely wanna u-smash as quickly as you can upon hitconfirm. The higher they get up, the less time you have for it to connect sense the first hit of u-smash comes out close to the ground.

well no wonder I wasn't pulling it off very consistently, I was always trying this with a near full charge, making my opponent further away from me ^^" . catching them with the start up of ASC may give you a smaller hitbox to work with, but it seems to be more rewarding in the end when it potentially gives you a guaranteed U-smash

 

[Eeveecario]

C'mon, I said it earlier!
Rather than the size from the ASC, is the positioning of your foe during your charge.

Nearly escaped out of the ball and far from you? DAIR (And maybe a Back-Air if he's too slow)
Nearly escaped out of the ball and close to you (almost in front)? GRAB (Or AS)
Nearly escaped from above? DAIR Too!
Close to the ground? Keep going!
About in the middle of the charge, and close to you (still behind)? Up-Smash!

Those are options, not actual combos.

 

[Enemis]

C'mon, I said it earlier!
Rather than the size from the ASC, is the positioning of your foe during your charge.

Nearly escaped out of the ball and far from you? DAIR (And maybe a Back-Air if he's too slow)
Nearly escaped out of the ball and close to you (almost in front)? GRAB (Or AS)
Nearly escaped from above? DAIR Too!
Close to the ground? Keep going!
About in the middle of the charge, and close to you (still behind)? Up-Smash!

Those are options, not actual combos.

Sorry XD I couldn't really picture it in my mind till right now eheh. OTL But Ima practice this for sure! Thanks a lot to you and the others who came up with this stuff! ;w;

 

[BugCatcherWill]

So I practiced this technique on some CPU's (cuz none of my friends play Smash ;_; ) and this is amazing for opponents on a ledge. If the sphere is big enough, it cancels almost all ledge attacks, a regular get-up gets them stuck, jumping traps them for most characters, and if they roll, just release the AS. Once trapped, you can use any of the options Eeveecario stated.

 

[Kami~]

So I practiced this technique on some CPU's (cuz none of my friends play Smash ;_; ) and this is amazing for opponents on a ledge. If the sphere is big enough, it cancels almost all ledge attacks, a regular get-up gets them stuck, jumping traps them for most characters, and if they roll, just release the AS. Once trapped, you can use any of the options Eeveecario stated.

OLD

 

[BugCatcherWill]

OLD

Wait, so this was discussed before?

Oops...

 

[Kami~]

Wait, so this was discussed before?

Oops...

Going to have to report you, sorry.

 

[Auramaniji]

I did'nt know that eevecario was a scientist. Now i've got something to do other than watch Pokemon movies while the roads are being covered in ice.

.
You can learn lot of tricks with AS here too (credits to the respective owner), or you can check my guide here for some detailed information about it (Both are Smashboards links).

EDIT: Sorry, forgot the inputs.

1. Charge your aura sphere.
2. Shield
3. Jump while shielding
4. Quickly USmash before jumping.

Also, you can also move faster and safer by ASC -> Shield Jump Cancel.

Now if only I could learn the timing for Wavebounce b.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Going to have to report you, sorry.

*Slips $5 under the table*
Maybe we can work this out?

 

[Zee'mmoro]

*Slips $5 under the table*
Maybe we can work this out?

-leans in by Bug and whispers- Don't bribe Lucarios with money. Bribe them with chocolate. -whistles and walks off-

 

[Croi]

chocolate is bad for dogs. reported

 

[BugCatcherWill]

chocolate is bad for dogs. reported

Not to be that guy, but dogs can eat certain types of chocolate that does not have the standard cocoa bean ingredients (i.e. White Chocolate)

 

[Kami~]

I did'nt know that eevecario was a scientist. Now i've got something to do other than watch Pokemon movies while the roads are being covered in ice.
Now if only I could learn the timing for Wavebounce b.

btw that gif isn't even the "true combo" ver of the jc upsmash. With jc upsmash you don't even see the shield after asc, only the upsmash coming out

 

[Auramaniji]

btw that gif isn't even the "true combo" ver of the jc upsmash. With jc upsmash you don't even see the shield after asc, only the upsmash coming out

My b

 

[Eeveecario]

I did'nt know that eevecario was a scientist. Now i've got something to do other than watch Pokemon movies while the roads are being covered in ice.
Now if only I could learn the timing for Wavebounce b.

N... No, I'm not a scientist, working on a guide actually lead me to some interesting information.

BTW.
Wavebounce input is:

1. Have full control and momentum from either left or right.
2. Let go the stick, and press B.
3. After pressing B, Quickly press the opposite direction you had the momentum

If done correctly, you should bounce to the other side you were moving. (Reverse works the same way, invert step 2 and 3 to get a Reverse B)

btw that gif isn't even the "true combo" ver of the jc upsmash. With jc upsmash you don't even see the shield after asc, only the upsmash coming out

Yeah I know, was for ilustration purposes =)

 

[AlexoftheAura]

Sexy, sexy math

I think I love you

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Ok, found the info.
A cording to this information provided by Dantarion.

Aura Sphere is looping indefinitely every 5 Frames, 3 active and 2 empty. (About the hit-stun, I need to know which value is it)
UpSmash charges at Frame 15, First hit at Frame 16 ~ Frame 17 and Hard Hit as early as Frame 19 ~ Frame 23.

In conclusion, we have 15 Frames in the best case and 17 Frames worst case as gap to land the first hit. The only important and missing information is the Hit stun value.

EDIT: Found it!
By checking Marth's Forward Smash Data, which is:


The last one being Marth Sword's Tip, which causes more damage and stun.

Lucario's Aura Sphere Ball data is


Hit-stun is 8 Frames! minding the damage your foe has, it could be either a True combo or string!

Does it account for Aura? Hitstun scales with more damage that you do.

The opponent will be in more hitstun at like 100% compared to 0.

 

[Eeveecario]

I think I love you

B... Bu... But Sempai....

Does it account for Aura? Hitstun scales with more damage that you do.

The opponent will be in more hitstun at like 100% compared to 0.

Mmm tall question, but yeah, it does.
the aura grow rate should be similar to the pummel's grow ratio (.66% ~ 1.77%).

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Say a Lucario used ASC at 100% with rage, would it have more hitstun at that point?

 

[Eeveecario]

Say a Lucario used ASC at 100% with rage, would it have more hitstun at that point?

Hard to tell due to the AS size change,
And does the Aura affect directly to the stun frames? As far as I know it doesn't.

I've only seen more stun-frames the more damaged the foe is, knockback growth maybe?
Anyway, Aura only seems to affect damage (and special attributes in some moves), and maybe it doesn't affect stun-frames DIRECTLY at all.

 

[Deez1]

..........

 

[LimitCrown]

Hitstun is directly proportional to the amount of knockback that is dealt by an attack, which can increase as the amount of damage that an attack deals increases.

 

[Kami~]

I don't think ASC hits increase hitstun with dmg. Could be very wrong and even if it does it looks so miniscule that it wouldn't be much at all

 

[Eeveecario]

Hitstun is directly proportional to the amount of knockback that is dealt by an attack, which can increase as the amount of damage knockback that an attack deals increases.

Also known as knockback growth. (Right?)

I don't think ASC hits increase hitstun with dmg. Could be very wrong and even if it does it looks so miniscule that it wouldn't be much at all

I think the same

EDIT:

From wiki
(...) The damage dealt by an attack is a significant factor in how much knockback it deals, but it is not the primary factor - this is the reason stale moves have less knockback than fresh ones, and why many chargable special moves deal less knockback when fully charged (the knockback values of the fully-charged move are altered to compensate for the higher damage, whereas the same is often not true when not fully charged).

Each hitbox of a move has two knockback values: a base knockback and a knockback scaling (also known as knockback growth). Base knockback is the minimum amount of knockback the attack can deliver (in normal circumstances), and knockback scaling is a factor that controls how much the knockback increases as damage increases.(...)

You were right @ LimitCrown .
I'm more convinced that Aura doesn't rise stun-frames. BUT it's indirectly involved in it by rising your damage.

You should have more stun-frames as more damage your foe has taken.

 

[LimitCrown]

Also known as knockback growth. (Right?)

That is correct. The damage of attacks affects the knockback of moves with scaling knockback only.

 

[Karnu]

I'm bored. I'm board.

Get un bored dezter

 

[Enemis]

N... No, I'm not a scientist, working on a guide actually lead me to some interesting information.

BTW.
Wavebounce input is:

1. Have full control and momentum from either left or right.
2. Let go the stick, and press B.
3. After pressing B, Quickly press the opposite direction you had the momentum

If done correctly, you should bounce to the other side you were moving. (Reverse works the same way, invert step 2 and 3 to get a Reverse B)


Yeah I know, was for ilustration purposes =)

Call me weird, but before I knew the proper term for this, I called it "reverse aura momentum" XD

*still thinks his name for it sounds cooler*

 

[Karnu]

Well @Deez1 had learn't the riseing/falling dair and how and when to do it.

Good job Buddy

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Also known as knockback growth. (Right?)



I think the same

EDIT:

You were right @ LimitCrown .
I'm more convinced that Aura doesn't rise stun-frames. BUT it's indirectly involved in it by rising your damage.

You should have more stun-frames as more damage your foe has taken.

That is correct. The damage of attacks affects the knockback of moves with scaling knockback only.

So we still do not know how many frames Aura Sphere scales in regards to hitstun, huh?