Social Lucario Social: Aura Dog Days of Summer

[BugCatcherWill]

Mmm... tall order... It's heavily dependent of your foe's weight, damage and DI. You're asking for the complete event of a hit (Distance and angle traveled, Frames stunned (true combo or string), fastest input/frame chains, etc). I can only say experience will only tell you.
I mean, this whole event can be calculated, but it will take me a lot of time. Sorry, I can't help you for now.

It's cool. It'd take darn near forever to do the calculations for every character. From my experience, I'd say it works when the opponent is past 80-90%, but I guess the main outlier is the aura factor. Maybe just try it when it seems the best option? I dunno.

 

[Karnu]

Hi

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

D-Tilt (Against Mario)
0% & 0% = 23 frames.
0% & 100% = 39 frames.
100% & 0% = 24 frames.
100% & 100% = 49 frames.
Frame stun growth ratio:

per 's damage unit = ~ 0.01 frames(A little less)
per 's damage unit = ~0.165 frames​

DAir Hit 1 (Against Mario)
0% & 0% = 10 frames.
0% & 100% = 14 frames.
100% & 0% = 10 frames.
100% & 100% = 17 frames.
Frame stun growth ratio:

per 's damage unit = ~ 0.0025 frames (every 4% raises 0.01 stun frames)
per 's damage unit = ~ 0.065 frames.​

UTilt Sourspot (Against Mario)
0% & 0% = 26 frames.
0% & 100% = 42 frames.
100% & 0% = 27 frames.
100% & 100% = 52 frames.
Frame stun growth ratio:

per 's damage unit = ~ 0.01 frames (a little less).
per 's damage unit = ~ 0.165 frames.
(Same growth ratio as DTilt, huh? Interesting...).​

UTilt Sweetspot (Against Mario)
0% & 0% = 28 frames.
0% & 100% = 47 frames.
100% & 0% = 30 frames. (Exactly 30 frames)
100% & 100% = 58 frames.
Frame stun growth ratio:

per 's damage unit = ~ 0.0137 frames
per 's damage unit = ~ 0.275 frames.​

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here you go! Please have in mind your foe is not steady, as they're having knockback and they should be popping off somewhere during this.

​

Sweet, this does confirm one of my suspicions. At 119%... fresh DAir first hit should do 18.1 frames of hitstun. This means if you're absolutely frame perfect you can true combo into FP. If both characters are at 150% fresh first hit of DAir does 20 frames of hitstun.

Thank you for checking.

One more question... Does this calculator take the freshness bonus into account?

 

[DomBadZZZ]

Junebug is playing diddy now. I'm pretty distraught about it....

 

[Sunnysunny]

I've confirmed that the Lucario Vs Sonic match up is the most painfully agonizing match up in this game at high level play.
I just had a match that went to 3 ****ing time outs because aurasphere charge ****s up sonics approaches, but sonic approaches damn near for free verse everything else.

I've been playing a lot of sonics lately and it's staggeringly stupid how aurasphere charge completely saves this match up for us.
Or I dunno.
Maybe i'm doing something wrong.
*shrug*

Any suggestions?

 

[Karnu]

I hate the MU too

 

[Rysir]

Pretty much no force palm allowed against sonic, I learned to not even try it and I survive better.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Prolly revenge for the Sonic Lucario MU in brawl.
But seriously, they overbuffed Sanic in this game even tho he of course got nerfs in some areas. Just not many.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Prolly revenge for the Sonic Lucario MU in brawl.
But seriously, they overbuffed Sanic in this game even tho he of course got nerfs in some areas. Just not many.

That speed with that much safety and KO power is disgusting.
It's still doable, but god is it dumb to fight this guy off with one move for basically 90% of the battle.

I'm curious what it's like to fight him with a character that can actually stand toe to toe with his neutral game, but admittedly all i got is lucario. = 3=

Slushers do you play sawnic now? = w=

 

[Sinister Slush]

lolno
I'm staying Yoshi forever.

What I don't like is Sonic being a projectile that does 20+% not counting the free aerial he gets out of it if he gets a hit confirm.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

This might be a stupid question, but would it be "smart" to use counter against a Sonic player? I know Lucario's counter isn't that great (as is pretty much every counter), but it could be possible to pull a Little Mac and counter while being combo'd in the air. Most Sonic players usually try to go for a bair if you're off the ledge, which Lucario could try to go for a counter if it's predictable. That or it could blow up in his face and counter-cide off the screen...

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

If you get hit by Sonic DI away. You might get hit by UAir hit 1, but you can avoid hit 2 if you DI it.

Edit: Sonic can jump out of one of his spins. You probably need Amiibo reaction speed to make it work.

 

[Pitbuller26]

If someone says that they enjoys fighting Sonic, I question their judgement.

 

[Croi]

You could try maining Diddy.

 

[Rysir]

You could try maining Diddy.

Now that is just crazy talk!

 

[Sunnysunny]

lolno
I'm staying Yoshi forever.

What I don't like is Sonic being a projectile that does 20+% not counting the free aerial he gets out of it if he gets a hit confirm.

My mang. <3
Character loyalty respect. :3

But yea **** sonic, I know OUR character isnt't the epitome of great design, but I have no ****ing clue what they were thinking when they made fasthog.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

But yea **** sonic, I know OUR character isnt't the epitome of great design, but I have no ****ing clue what they were thinking when they made fasthog.

I just find it hilariously ironic that Sonic is faster in Smash Bros. than in about half of his own games...

 

[RT]

My mang. <3
Character loyalty respect. :3

But yea **** sonic, I know OUR character isnt't the epitome of great design, but I have no ****ing clue what they were thinking when they made fasthog.

They were doing whatever when he was in Brawl.

For Smash 4, they kept him the same while giving him a ton of random buffs, and he got better because of it. But since he is still based on Brawl Sonic, he still has some of the same weaknesses.

 

[Eeveecario]

Sweet, this does confirm one of my suspicions. At 119%... fresh DAir first hit should do 18.1 frames of hitstun. This means if you're absolutely frame perfect you can true combo into FP. If both characters are at 150% fresh first hit of DAir does 20 frames of hitstun.

Thank you for checking.

One more question... Does this calculator take the freshness bonus into account?

Nope, the calculator doesn't take in mind stale-moves nor freshness, give me a minute and I'll update the file.

 

[Sinister Slush]

But since he is still based on Brawl Sonic, he still has some of the same weaknesses.

Killing isn't one of em

 

[RT]

I said some, geez.

 

[Sinister Slush]

To be honest that might as well been his only weakness in brawl. Kill moves and no way to rack up good damage.
At least now Sanic is a projectile that chunks people and has a kill move for literally everything now.

 

[Eeveecario]

OK guys, hit-stun frames calculator v1.1 is out now!

• Added stale move damage calculator
• Links to reference files are now out of the text-area, you can click them now.
• Minor style changes.

Some important things to mention.
STALE MOVES AREN'T PENALIZED FROM HIT-STUN FRAMES, ONLY DAMAGE DEALT. STALE MOVES ARE PENALIZED ON HIT-STUN FRAMES DUE TO LOSS OF DAMAGE DEALT.

Also, stale moves (MIGHT) work like this.
During the game, your fighter has a hidden array (a variable with multiple values) of size 9, tracking the moves you have performed, if you keep using the same move frequently, the complete attack of that move will be penalized (sweetspot or sourspot is indifferent here). Since it keeps track of the fighter and not the target, in Free for All battles you have to continuously change attacks, or the move will be staled without regarding of the target. If you get KOd, this list is cleaned and started from scratch. For example, we have this.

Spoiler: Example

STALE MOVE LIST (ARRAY)

1. UAir
2. FAir
3. FAir
4. UThrow
5. Pummel *
6. NAir
7. FAir
8. [EMPTY]
9. [EMPTY]

* By the way, do you guys know if we can use pummel to refresh our stale moves? I heard it was patched in smash 4 and only counts as a single move (Until you throw or release).

A move in the first position is your last LANDED move.
A move out of this list is considered *fresh*, and it receives a bonus of x1.05 dmg (only applied in actual matches, not training). If a used move is on the list, it will be penalized by how frequent you've been using it. (x0.1 in pos 1, x0.09 in pos 2, ..., x0.02 in pos 9).

For example, if we land a FAir again with at 0% (dealing 3.92% dmg), the move will be penalized with a penalty of x0.09 + x0.08 + x0.04 = x0.21 penalty.
Finally landing 3.92% - (3.92 * -0.21) = 3.09%.
After that, the move will push back the list, finally having:

Spoiler: Example 2

1. FAir
2. UAir
3. FAir
4. FAir
5. UThrow
6. Pummel *
7. NAir
8. FAir
9. [EMPTY]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the stale move expalnation... So back to the calculator, here's how you calculate the stale moves with the tool:

1. Select the frame stun you want to check (Truth is, only the row matters).
2. Press F9 (Re-Calculate).
3. And the little table should be refreshed!

Also, please the only values you have to edit are those with the green background. Editing anything else might surely break it.
In addition, you might receive an alert about some values, please ignore it (It's a bug).

Have fun! Hope you like it!

EDIT: I made a little mistake on the table, stale moves DO alter hit-stun frames (why did I said it didn't in the first place?). I'm updating the tool, so It can also calculate the frames stunned.
EDIT 2: There, I've updated it, frames next to the stale move reduction show how many frames you're losing.

 

[RT]

To be honest that might as well been his only weakness in brawl. Kill moves and no way to rack up good damage.
At least now Sanic is a projectile that chunks people and has a kill move for literally everything now.

Pretty much. He became good because of balance changes from Brawl.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

OK guys, hit-stun frames calculator v1.1 is out now!

• Added stale move damage calculator
• Links to reference files are now out of the text-area, you can click them now.
• Minor style changes.

Some important things to mention.
STALE MOVES AREN'T PENALIZED FROM HIT-STUN FRAMES, ONLY DAMAGE DEALT. STALE MOVES ARE PENALIZED ON HIT-STUN FRAMES DUE TO LOSS OF DAMAGE DEALT.

Also, stale moves (MIGHT) work like this.
During the game, your fighter has a hidden array (a variable with multiple values) of size 9, tracking the moves you have performed, if you keep using the same move frequently, the complete attack of that move will be penalized (sweetspot or sourspot is indifferent here). Since it keeps track of the fighter and not the target, in Free for All battles you have to continuously change attacks, or the move will be staled without regarding of the target. If you get KOd, this list is cleaned and started from scratch. For example, we have this.

Spoiler: Example

STALE MOVE LIST (ARRAY)

1. UAir
2. FAir
3. FAir
4. UThrow
5. Pummel *
6. NAir
7. FAir
8. [EMPTY]
9. [EMPTY]

* By the way, do you guys know if we can use pummel to refresh our stale moves? I heard it was patched in smash 4 and only counts as a single move (Until you throw or release).

A move in the first position is your last LANDED move.
A move out of this list is considered *fresh*, and it receives a bonus of x1.05 dmg (only applied in actual matches, not training). If a used move is on the list, it will be penalized by how frequent you've been using it. (x0.1 in pos 1, x0.09 in pos 2, ..., x0.02 in pos 9).

For example, if we land a FAir again with at 0% (dealing 3.92% dmg), the move will be penalized with a penalty of x0.09 + x0.08 + x0.04 = x0.21 penalty.
Finally landing 3.92% - (3.92 * -0.21) = 3.09%.
After that, the move will push back the list, finally having:

Spoiler: Example 2

1. FAir
2. UAir
3. FAir
4. FAir
5. UThrow
6. Pummel *
7. NAir
8. FAir
9. [EMPTY]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's the stale move expalnation... So back to the calculator, here's how you calculate the stale moves with the tool:

1. Select the frame stun you want to check (Truth is, only the row matters).
2. Press F9 (Re-Calculate).
3. And the little table should be refreshed!

Also, please the only values you have to edit are those with the green background. Editing anything else might surely break it.
In addition, you might receive an alert about some values, please ignore it (It's a bug).

Have fun! Hope you like it!

EDIT: I made a little mistake on the table, stale moves DO alter hit-stun frames (why did I said it didn't in the first place?). I'm updating the tool, so It can also calculate the frames stunned.
EDIT 2: There, I've updated it, frames next to the stale move reduction show how many frames you're losing.

Nice work on this.

If I remember correctly the freshness damage bonus is 1.05x in Brawl. I suppose we would be able to figure out for sure if it is the same if we tested a 39% damage and a 40% damage move according to training mode and if the 40% move does 42% with freshness... Then I'm pretty certain it is as it was in Brawl.

Fortunately we use a character that can do 40% with a move :3 see the Aura chart.

Why is USmash so good in this game?

Oh and here's an interesting theroycraft... We might be able to pull off the 1 frame landing lag thing out with no stall DAir out of hitstun... Thinkabur using it out of getting hit by Wario's or Mario's DAir.

 

[LimitCrown]

The cells in the last column of the stale moves table display the #VALUE! error for some reason.

 

[Eeveecario]

The cells in the last column of the stale moves table display the #VALUE! error for some reason.

What does Cell D36 says? What's the formula?
EDIT: I assume you've downloaded it, right?

 

[LimitCrown]

What does Cell D36 says? What's the formula?
EDIT: I assume you've downloaded it, right?

Cell D36 and the others in the column display a series of number signs. The formula in that cell is =CELL("contenido"). The cells in column C in that table are the ones that have the #VALUE! error.

 

[Funkermonster]

Would it be cool if I asked what Lucario's weaknesses are and what good opponents should exploit to beat you guys? Been losing to your character quite a bit lately and its starting to grind my gears a little. As much as I like Lucario in Pokemon, I find this guy very annoying to fight and I'm not really a big fan of his concept as a fighter in Smash Bros. All I know is, Aura + The Rage Effect ( a mechanic I personally dislike) is no fun for me to go up against.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Would it be cool if I asked what Lucario's weaknesses are and what good opponents should exploit to beat you guys? Been losing to your character quite a bit lately and its starting to grind my gears a little. As much as I like Lucario in Pokemon, I find this guy very annoying to fight and I'm not really a big fan of his concept as a fighter in Smash Bros. All I know is, Aura + The Rage Effect ( a mechanic I personally dislike) is no fun for me to go up against.

Don't get hit

 

[Eeveecario]

Cell D36 and the others in the column display a series of number signs. The formula in that cell is =CELL("contenido"). The cells in column C in that table are the ones that have the #VALUE! error.

Check the equivalent of contenido, should be "content" or alike (hate formula translations). Should be on quotesquotes too.
That should fix it

 

[Rysir]

I am officially in love with shocking double team, it puts all options on a silver platter for me and lets me think more.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Would it be cool if I asked what Lucario's weaknesses are and what good opponents should exploit to beat you guys? Been losing to your character quite a bit lately and its starting to grind my gears a little. As much as I like Lucario in Pokemon, I find this guy very annoying to fight and I'm not really a big fan of his concept as a fighter in Smash Bros. All I know is, Aura + The Rage Effect ( a mechanic I personally dislike) is no fun for me to go up against.

What characters do you use?
Sonic, Gren, and Duck hunt I presume?

Your best bet is most likely sonic. Lucario has low mobility, but a triple SSS punish game. Anything that's unsafe is going to be punished hard. Sonic has both reliable KO's and very safe pressure. Just don't play dumb and you're fine. :3

Also.
Don't go duck hunt.
Like ever.
The match up is a cake walk. We get to high aura for free, and then stay there when duck hunt has trouble sealing off a stock.

 

[Croi]

Lucario has low mobility, but a triple SSS punish game.

That's, like, twenty S's!

I disagree that Duck Hunt is a total cakewalk: the grenade is a lot harder to work around than you might think. But it's definitely in Lucario's favour. I would suggest switching to Sonic for it, but if you insist, do nothing but spam smash attacks once Lucario reaches 100 and hope you get lucky. Duck Hunt has trouble killing, and throwing more cans/discs/gunmen is just going to make Force Palm harder to deal with. Most characters want to kill us before Aura becomes an issue, but because Dog's best strengths are in his projectiles, killing us early is a total necessity, no two ways about it.

 

[LimitCrown]

Check the equivalent of contenido, should be "content" or alike (hate formula translations). Should be on quotesquotes too.
That should fix it

I changed the names to their equivalents, which fixed the error. Thank you very much!

 

[Rysir]

So then, who here is up for some lucario ditto matches? I figured its about time I got a bit more serious in practicing.

 

[AlexoftheAura]

Somebody's usually down for dittos in the skype chat, and it's way easier to set up matches there than here.

 

[Rysir]

Yeah I suppose that would be better.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Somebody's usually down for dittos in the skype chat, and it's way easier to set up matches there than here.

Wait, there's a Skype chat? Do you have a link to the forum page or something?

 

[AlexoftheAura]

Just post your skype name and I'll add you.