~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Browny]

AS > Links recovery.

get him off stage and force him to airdodge, he wont make it back. couple this with lucarios CG on link which goes very high (Dont try to finish the combo with a dthrow - fair though, his dair *****) and thats one hell of an inherent advantage

all you need to do is stay the hell away from his dair. playing lucario for so long might desensitize you into thinking your attacks go through everything (which lucarios aerials do anyway) but nothing stops the link dair.

 

[XavantTheEnigma]

As an uber jackal, force Link into becoming the Twilight Wolf and SHOW HIM THAT ALL HIS BASE ARE BELONG TO LUCARIO.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

lets see... force palm chain grab works wonders

spamming baby spheres is actually good at times because they cancel Links projectiles...

oh yeah F-smash and f-tilt are your friends :] don't you forget that!

...

what! that wasn't helpful!?

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Crazy Link Action

Here is how he did most of that crazy stuff.

My call on this is Even Match, the player with more skill wins this match.

 

[Timbers]

Crazy Link Action

Here is how he did most of that crazy stuff.

My call on this is Even Match, the player with more skill wins this match.

I watched these videos a week or two ago. The guy's video editing is amazing.

Oh and yeah the combos too. 0-60% in like 3 seconds is madness.

Link's approach is by no means bad, either. He does it quite well from what I've seen. Projectiles cover him greatly, and zair/ff nair/dash attack works well too. Yeah, dash attack. It might be laggy but it has a ton of range on it. Against Lucario, this will probably be taken advantage of, as Luc's grabrange is pretty lame.

 

[Browny]

... how profound

anyway links combos pale in comparison to lucarios. Links very good dash-cancelled usmash is not only difficult to do properly (theres 2 variants, one which goes a mile and one that goes about half as far. the perfect one is near impossible to do repeatedly), is stopped in its tracks by Aura sphere. It really isnt that threatening once you get the spacing down. just like snakes, with a little practice you will memorise the range of links d/c upsmash, and it becomes nothing more than an annoyance and a free hit for AS. everytime you see the enemy line you up, its pretty obvious whats coming.

unlike snake though, link cant use it as an approach since its very laggy if it misses. Seriously, it looks threatening when you see it on youtube, just like dedede recovery. but in game its rarely worth using more than a few times against people who dont know its range.

 

[manhunter098]

While that video was quite entertaining and the Link was undoubtedly skilled, I dont think his opponents were nearly as good, and as all combo videos go, its quite biased (but thats a little obvious). In Brawl a combo vid means you can do some impressive chains in it there arent going to be many true combos. Thus to just judge Link (or any character) based on a combo video isnt a good idea.

There is no way this is an even matchup. All Lucario has to do is get Link off stage and hes pretty much got a KO, Link has to go through a great deal more trouble to land a kill on Lucario.

 

[Timbers]

Link has some combo potential, but it's more or less a hit or miss with him, whereas Lucario can get much better results. He doesn't get overshadowed by Lucario's though, he's still pretty far up there with his arsenal of projectiles, which sets up some great strings.

As far as his boost smash, every character that uses it is frame dependent on how far they go. Sheik, Falco, and Wolf are no exception. I think Snake has a set distance, but I could be wrong on that. I haven't tested it. Anyways, Link's boost smashes are very close together. Not one being half as short. The extended version goes roughly just over 1/3 of FD, and the other variant being just under 1/3 of FD. You can't assume that the Link you're playing is inexperienced at being close to frame perfect, either. Underestimating your opponent is a terrible thing to do.

Keep in mind that neither Snake's mortarslide or Link's boost smash are good approach options. Both have low priority. Now unlike Snake, Link's actually has combo potential. I've seen it effectively used out of a shff zair/bomb throw/arrow/etc. Snake's boostsmash doesn't do any of this. It's a viable form of transportation across the stage for him and getting close to the edge for edgeguarding. That's all it has and will be used for.

I agree that it's not something that should be spammed, but it's definitely something to watch out for. It still has it's uses. He has a solid game on stage, but he becomes really vulnerable off of it.

Anyways, as far as the chart is concerned...would something like this work?

Full version

 

[Pentaoku]

I really think the fact that Link off stage getting hit by almost anything = Link dying gives Lucario an advantage despite the good fight he can put up on stage.

If his recovery didn't suck, Link would probably be even, but it does, so Lucario's favor IMO.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

I really think the fact that Link off stage getting hit by almost anything = Link dying gives Lucario an advantage despite the good fight he can put up on stage.

If his recovery didn't suck, Link would probably be even, but it does, so Lucario's favor IMO.

How does this differ from DK.... just because DK can KO you early?... If you get him off the edge thats pretty much a kill. Link has better approach options in my opinion, and can fight you better on stage. He also has moves that our prioritize some of your best moves (Down Air for example is canceled by his Up Air, His Down Air pretty much hits us if we try to hit him from under him unless we time Up Smash perfectly...)

 

[Timbers]

DK's recovery is tons better than Link's. SA frames, great horizontal distance, naturally good horizontal DI. Link has a lame second jump, terrible horizontal DI, and of course a very weak uB. Link's a very solid character on the stage, but his recovery is lacking severely. You can't compare him to DK. DK can recover at stage level from nearly anywhere. Link has no horizontal distance on his recovery, and his vertical distance isn't that great either.

Link's approach is definitely better than DK's though. And I agree about him limiting your options. You do not want to ever land on him. Your dair just doesn't cut it in this match against his utilt/usmash/uair. His dair will eat through our usmash as well I believe. I haven't tested this yet, but TL's dair and your usmash will trade hits. I'm near positive Link's dair will eat right through it. You generally don't want to be going up against the dair anyways. It does some obscene damage, like 22%, and kills Luc at 100%

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Seeing an untested situation put me in the mood to help out with this for a change, so I hastily powered up my Wii in the name of science. Here's my report: Lucci's usmash > Link's dair.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Does Link's Up B no longer explode bombs? If it still does then his Vertical Recovery isn't that bad. It is much like when Snake Down B's to plant C4 then explodes it to knock himself back up in the air. The bomb thing is just a little bit more difficult.

 

[Pentaoku]

Does Link's Up B no longer explode bombs? If it still does then his Vertical Recovery isn't that bad. It is much like when Snake Down B's to plant C4 then explodes it to knock himself back up in the air. The bomb thing is just a little bit more difficult.

Well if you're Link, and you take out a bomb and get knocked off stage, your bomb will probably not explode at all because you'll die first, depending on the distance. The bomb takes a while to explode really, Link can't bomb jump very well at all.

Also spin attack does not detonate.

 

[G-Beast]

. His dair will eat through our usmash as well I believe. I haven't tested this yet, but TL's dair and your usmash will trade hits.

if you time teh usmash so link will get hit by the very end of it, your usmash will hit him and you wont take any damage, but this is extremely hard to do since the long hitting part of it lasts such little time, i prefer to charge this smash up if i know the link will dair me

 

[Timbers]

if you time teh usmash so link will get hit by the very end of it, your usmash will hit him and you wont take any damage, but this is extremely hard to do since the long hitting part of it lasts such little time, i prefer to charge this smash up if i know the link will dair me

So it's one of those "just barely" things then, huh d=
Um, are you talking about Link's lingering dair, or the initial startup? Initial startup has greater range on it than lingering. I'm still in belief that the initial frames will outrange your usmash, but I don't have a wii to actually confirm that.

It sounds more plausable to just move out of the way and 1) fsmash or 2) grab.

 

[Kasai]

Hmmm....what can I say about link.

His aerial game pales in comparison to anything Lucario can throw his way. Not only is he slow but attacks don't have the awesome combo potential that Lucario has (Link does have some combo potential but nothing to lucario's degree. More hit or miss).. He can't FoP, edge guarding is rough because his recovery is pitiful and basically is outclassed completely while in the air.

His ground game isn't bad but definitely not something to brag about. He has a upsmash that can slide a bit but it can't approach because the lag afterwards and it's easy to avoid if you know the spacing of it. His range is pretty good but if I remember correctly, Lucario's fsmash has more range than any of his non projectile attacks.

Now his projectiles give him some camping potential but not to the quality that TLink can. his arrows curve much more without charging so he can't spam as much. His boomerang isn't as good.

Overall, definitely Lucario's matchup. I would say 70:30

 

[Timbers]

Link's fsmash has roughly the same range as Lucario's, and has quicker startup.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Updated Link info. VERY rough draft.

Oh, and I also updated the chart.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Sorry...but where is this info. page? I've looked for it, but I have no idea where it is. I know where the chart is, but not the page of info.

Wow...there is a TON of information against Link in here. You guys are all posting quite a lot of useful stuff. I'm not that experienced against Link players.

I would say that since your up smash has a disjointed hitbox right at the end of his hand, where the actual Aura Force comes out, that part out-prioritizes Link's dair, but if you don't time that right...well, let's just say I'd hate to be you. That's a little dangerous. Safer options might be more worth it. Just depends on stage, I guess. Sometimes killing upwards(Halberd, Delfino Plaza, cough cough) is WAAAY easier than killing horizontally. But there are certainly other ways to do this rather than an up smash.

As an uber jackal, force Link into becoming the Twilight Wolf and SHOW HIM THAT ALL HIS BASE ARE BELONG TO LUCARIO.

What you say?!?
You have no chance to survive. Make your time. HEHEHE!!!!

That...that was the absolute BEST use of that phrase I have ever heard in my life. No phrase, like lol or lmao, does justice to how funny that was. I haven't laughed that hard in a good while. Wow...that's going into my sig.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

All the info is in the second post on the first page.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Oh...I feel kinda dumb now...hehe. Thanks though. I'll go check it out.

 

[PSYCHE]

Have people forgottten about Links hookshot? Everyone is saying "Links recovery is balls, his up-b sucks", without mentioning his hookshot. Granted, it doesn't make it THAT much better, but it's worth mentioning.

i agree with whoever said it was a 70:30 match, in Lucs favor.

 

[Tomkraven]

Have people forgottten about Links hookshot? Everyone is saying "Links recovery is balls, his up-b sucks", without mentioning his hookshot. Granted, it doesn't make it THAT much better, but it's worth mentioning.

thats quite a good point links hookshot its quite long and its their only way to get to the ledge when they are under. Also their hookshot its very usefull to edgehog people... all they have to do is to drop and instantly shoot the hookshot, in that way they can edgehog without risking themselves and that takes them about 1/4 of second to do it.

Also its one of its main sources of comboing, for example they can throw a bomb up in the sky then grab you with the hookshot and do an upthrow and an Uair to finish.

 

[Timbers]

His hookshot gives him very little horizontal boost over his uB. If he's under the ledge then there's nothing he can do, and you can just whack him away from the ledge if he tries for it. It doesn't make his recovery any better, unfortunately.

Him getting ledge invincibility with the hookshot is irrelevant in the matchup. Lucario's uB does no damage.

 

[Tomkraven]

His hookshot gives him very little horizontal boost over his uB. If he's under the ledge then there's nothing he can do, and you can just whack him away from the ledge if he tries for it. It doesn't make his recovery any better, unfortunately.

Him getting ledge invincibility with the hookshot is irrelevant in the matchup. Lucario's uB does no damage.

sorry i think i was talking in general and not specifically for lucario... my bad

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Alright, we've got a lot of info guys, but we need MOAR!

Some info on Fundamental moves and Recommended Stages would be nice, and the more the merrier for the other two. Link may be a "boring" character, but every character should be discussed as thoughoughly as possible.

 

[PSYCHE]

Lets see. Obviously, Links fundamental moves are his projectiles. They will throw all these to make a "dome" ( I think that's what they call it) to keep you from effectively approaching. SH boomerang is used pretty frequently. Link has some pretty good mindgames at his disposal. Will pull out a bomb to make you think they will throw it immediatley and not. They can full jump, pull out a bomb, and fire an arrow in one jump. They have this trick where they can do this weird sliding throw with their bombs (not glide toss). And speaking of specials, their fully charged up-b is the best killing move, as in it kills at the lowest percent. Not that they'll ever get to do that. Hookshot is good, but its not fundamental as a melee move.



all this is just off the top of my head. Ill post back later with some more stuff.

 

[Timbers]

Alright, we've got a lot of info guys, but we need MOAR!

Some info on Fundamental moves and Recommended Stages would be nice, and the more the merrier for the other two. Link may be a "boring" character, but every character should be discussed as thoughoughly as possible.

I'd help if I could ;~; I don't play this matchup enough.

Obviously a stage like Frigate would be good against him. I know this stage keeps being brought up, but it seriously screws with people that have bad-mediocre vertical recoveries. The center of the stage on the second flip will give him a defensive and effective camping spot, but I don't know exactly how effective it is.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

I'd help if I could ;~; I don't play this matchup enough.

Obviously a stage like Frigate would be good against him. I know this stage keeps being brought up, but it seriously screws with people that have bad-mediocre vertical recoveries. The center of the stage on the second flip will give him a defensive and effective camping spot, but I don't know exactly how effective it is.

I am actually going to have to disagree with you on this one... as much as I love Frigate Orpheon I don't think this will be a very good stage to fight Link. (And I think you meant bad for people with Horizontal Recovery not Vertical)

Part #1

One Ledge, great we still got wall cling, but very little fighting space. What does this mean? You have to resort to your quicker attacks, and so does he.

Just like us he has an AA>>Whatever combo and his has more range then ours.

Z-Air is much more useful here since there is less room to get our of range of it, and as those videos I have posted shows he has quite the many options he can do out of Z-Air.

Less room means less time to respond to his Dash Attack Cancel Up Smash.

Since that ledge on the right goes down 1/2 the time, that gives him something to Up B onto when he is knocked off. Then again if it is up he is still screwed... but he was when it was at the stage, so it is only an advantage for him to have another option.

Part#2

Both sides have ledges now, and the battle area has increased. This is good (the more room part) since you now have more space to avoid his projectiles and more room to breath from an aggressive Link.

Link's recovery just got better now with the platforms that come out on each side. They happen quite frequent so the chances he will get back on the stage are nice.

Both Parts

As long as Link is on the screen he has enough Vertical Recovery to grab the ledge since the stage is so low to the ground.

My Stage Suggestions...

Rainbow Cruise: Keeps the battle in the air a lot and with his horrible recovery, a stage that keeps moving the platforms is the last place Link wants to be.

Yoshi's Story: For the same reasons why I suggest this every time I do, it is just a great Lucario Stage.

Any stage with a High Ceiling that also has ledges. We kill him Horizontally, they Kill us Vertically. Try to stay away from stages that have a ground level, this forces you to KO Link which sometimes is harder then just throwing him off the stage and pushing him with your air game.

 

[Timbers]

I am actually going to have to disagree with you on this one... as much as I love Frigate Orpheon I don't think this will be a very good stage to fight Link. (And I think you meant bad for people with Horizontal Recovery not Vertical)

Part #1

One Ledge, great we still got wall cling, but very little fighting space. What does this mean? You have to resort to your quicker attacks, and so does he.

Just like us he has an AA>>Whatever combo and his has more range then ours.

Z-Air is much more useful here since there is less room to get our of range of it, and as those videos I have posted shows he has quite the many options he can do out of Z-Air.

Less room means less time to respond to his Dash Attack Cancel Up Smash.

Since that ledge on the right goes down 1/2 the time, that gives him something to Up B onto when he is knocked off. Then again if it is up he is still screwed... but he was when it was at the stage, so it is only an advantage for him to have another option.

Part#2

Both sides have ledges now, and the battle area has increased. This is good (the more room part) since you now have more space to avoid his projectiles and more room to breath from an aggressive Link.

Link's recovery just got better now with the platforms that come out on each side. They happen quite frequent so the chances he will get back on the stage are nice.

Both Parts

As long as Link is on the screen he has enough Vertical Recovery to grab the ledge since the stage is so low to the ground.

My Stage Suggestions...

Rainbow Cruise: Keeps the battle in the air a lot and with his horrible recovery, a stage that keeps moving the platforms is the last place Link wants to be.

Yoshi's Story: For the same reasons why I suggest this every time I do, it is just a great Lucario Stage.

Any stage with a High Ceiling that also has ledges. We kill him Horizontally, they Kill us Vertically. Try to stay away from stages that have a ground level, this forces you to KO Link which sometimes is harder then just throwing him off the stage and pushing him with your air game.

Yes I meant horizontal.

Part #1:

Stage size does not matter. If anything, it helps you and gives him a harder time actually setting anything up. You have more quicker attacks than he does. he relies on spacing moreso than you. If anything the first stage is heavily in your favor. Shielding his AA stuff is no problem, or try to roll away, whatever. He doesn't have anything to penetrate our shield, so if he tries for AA>dsmash/fsmash, it will be shielded. He can go for the grab, but it has an obscene startup lag. You would be able to roll away/spotdodge or jump in time.

Stage position on the left side will help his zair, as it zones very well underneath the platform, and his usmash will catch you if you try landing on the platform. It's a great defensive point for him. But as great as he may sound on the left side of the stage, he's incredibly vulnerable on the right side. A grab to fair/nair will nearly always gimp his recovery.

His DAC is the same no matter which stage. It's a set movement. If he hits you on Frigate with it, he'll hit you on any other stage as well. Frigate doesn't help him with this.

Ledge on the right doesn't help him any, only screws with him. While it's true it does move down, it also has no ledge, and moves up as well. If you throw him off and then the ledge moves up, he's pretty much dead.

Part #2:

Link's dominant area is in the middle. It curves downwards and a platform protects him overhead. You cannot camp this section. Keep him out of it and you'll be fine.

Both stages:

The stage makes it incredibly easy to gimp him. That's the biggest reason I would suggest it. I don't know how much of an advantage you'd have picking this stage, but something so incredibly easy to gimp him with has to at least be noted. There might be better stages but I don't know.

Stuff like Rainbow is obviously good as well. Yoshi's Story promotes the same type of camping that Frigate's second stage does, only to a smaller degree. I'd personally hate being on this stage against Link, but I haven't played the matchup enough to give a final verdict.

His uair/dair/dsmash all kill vertically. Fsmash, ftilt, and fair kill horizontally. He has killmoves in both horizontal and vertical trajectories.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Yes I meant horizontal.

Part #1:

Stage size does not matter. If anything, it helps you and gives him a harder time actually setting anything up. You have more quicker attacks than he does. he relies on spacing moreso than you. If anything the first stage is heavily in your favor. Shielding his AA stuff is no problem, or try to roll away, whatever. He doesn't have anything to penetrate our shield, so if he tries for AA>dsmash/fsmash, it will be shielded. He can go for the grab, but it has an obscene startup lag. You would be able to roll away/spotdodge or jump in time.

You do realize that the majority of this statement has nothing to do with the stage... Links range is best at Medium, at this point in the stage that is the extent of the room you have which puts him in favor here more then another stage where you could fight on different terms.

Stage position on the left side will help his zair, as it zones very well underneath the platform, and his usmash will catch you if you try landing on the platform. It's a great defensive point for him. But as great as he may sound on the left side of the stage, he's incredibly vulnerable on the right side. A grab to fair/nair will nearly always gimp his recovery.

So what you are saying here is that Link has a spot on the field where he can set up a good defense against you... hmm. And on the right side he still has a chance of recovery when the platform goes down, which it does, and because you can't always be in charge how your opponent moves the Link player will more then likely try his/her best to stay away from there during the times when he can't recover.

His DAC is the same no matter which stage. It's a set movement. If he hits you on Frigate with it, he'll hit you on any other stage as well. Frigate doesn't help him with this.

No you are right... if this attack can hit you here where there is little platform for you to move away from it, it will hit you on any other longer stage that you do have more room to get away from this... My god seriously put a 1/2 of thought into what you say sometimes.

Ledge on the right doesn't help him any, only screws with him. While it's true it does move down, it also has no ledge, and moves up as well. If you throw him off and then the ledge moves up, he's pretty much dead.

I already said my piece on the right side of the stage

Part #2:

Link's dominant area is in the middle. It curves downwards and a platform protects him overhead. You cannot camp this section. Keep him out of it and you'll be fine.

So he has the advantage here? How does this help your arguement that this is a good stage for us and not him?

Both stages:

The stage makes it incredibly easy to gimp him. That's the biggest reason I would suggest it. I don't know how much of an advantage you'd have picking this stage, but something so incredibly easy to gimp him with has to at least be noted. There might be better stages but I don't know.

This stage does nothing special to how you can gimp Link if anything this gives him more recovery option than just about any other stage that has "High Ceilings and Ledges". But I do have to agree with you on one thing. You "don't know". You are wrong about this one.

Stuff like Rainbow is obviously good as well. Yoshi's Story promotes the same type of camping that Frigate's second stage does, only to a smaller degree. I'd personally hate being on this stage against Link, but I haven't played the matchup enough to give a final verdict.

His uair/dair/dsmash all kill vertically. Fsmash, ftilt, and fair kill horizontally. He has killmoves in both horizontal and vertical trajectories.

If you don't want to go to Yoshi's Story by all means don't but that doesn't make it any less of a better stage to take Link to, It gives you more recovery options, a platform to reduce the way Link can spam projectiles, and a stage that Link cannot Up B from the bottom of the stage to recover from.

 

[Timbers]

You're very determined to prove me wrong, aren't you.

-You're mentioning quick attacks and jab cancels and all of this stuff. Reread what you said, please.

-Link has a terrible horizontal recovery, and he's a tall character. He has no ledge to grab, and unless he's fully above the platform, he will fall to his death. He also has a huge amount of afterlag from his uB. He has to land on the stage with it, it's very easy to punish him with a full aurasphere or fsmash. It does not help his recovery. It makes it all the worse. He can't sweetspot a ledge, and it's hard for him to even recover due to his size/low horizontal DI/bad recovery.

-Don't insult me. Even after all of the bull**** you've sputtered on the past month of these boards, I've still never went to personally insult you. You're definitely pushing it though, shut the **** up if you seriously don't know what you're talking about. DAC is low priority. If you see him use it, you're able to attack him/shield/whatever. Stage size means nothing with this.

-Still wrong.

-Not every aspect of a stage can seriously be against him. Rainbow Cruise he has a mass amount of opportunities to dair your slow, non-damaging uB. Should we suddenly consider this stage to be Link dominant?

-He can't use his hookshot to recover on the right side. On top of that, point 3 describes why it's very unfavorable for him. I don't know about the matchup. I know what Link is and is not capable of, do not twist my words.

-Link can angle his boomerang, and the large platform gives him more opportunities to usmash and protect him as he spams, limiting your approach. You don't need more ways to recover from Link, he has no gimp game. If you can't make it back to the stage after being hit by him, you're doing something wrong.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Okay, I apologize in advance if I'm the only one bothered by this feud you have, but... well, we all know you two don't like each other, but can you keep it civil? Especially you, Angelo. I'm not trying to take sides here, but from a neutral standpoint, you seem to like baiting Timbers a lot. That's really not helpful when we're trying to have a rational discussion.

Again, if I'm the only one bothered by it, just ignore me. I just hate seeing this go on in what I see as a very friendly character community.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

You're very determined to prove me wrong, aren't you.

You're really determined to think everything you say is right...

-You're mentioning quick attacks and jab cancels and all of this stuff. Reread what you said, please.

So try all that stuff you said and see how effective it is... rolling away from him on this part of the stage doesn't get you far.

-Link has a terrible horizontal recovery, and he's a tall character. He has no ledge to grab, and unless he's fully above the platform, he will fall to his death. He also has a huge amount of afterlag from his uB. He has to land on the stage with it, it's very easy to punish him with a full aurasphere or fsmash. It does not help his recovery. It makes it all the worse. He can't sweetspot a ledge, and it's hard for him to even recover due to his size/low horizontal DI/bad recovery.

You really didn't read what I said did you. And to address the whole, he has to land on the platform and you can hit him part... do you realize how small that platform is... there is a good chance if he is recovering on that platform and you are down there... you are in range of his Up B, which attacks! and if you just shield it, he should have enough time to put up his shield or spot dodge before you can hit him with anything that would kill him.

-Don't insult me. Even after all of the bull**** you've sputtered on the past month of these boards, I've still never went to personally insult you. You're definitely pushing it though, shut the **** up if you seriously don't know what you're talking about. DAC is low priority. If you see him use it, you're able to attack him/shield/whatever. Stage size means nothing with this.

You still don't get it do you. Less room = Less reaction time, Less reaction time = Greater chance that you will get hit by his attack.

-Still wrong.

-Not every aspect of a stage can seriously be against him. Rainbow Cruise he has a mass amount of opportunities to dair your slow, non-damaging uB. Should we suddenly consider this stage to be Link dominant?

Why would you be using Up B here, your floatiness and great second jump should be enough... >_>

-He can't use his hookshot to recover on the right side. On top of that, point 3 describes why it's very unfavorable for him. I don't know about the matchup. I know what Link is and is not capable of, do not twist my words.

For something you don't know much about you sure do fight hard about it.

-Link can angle his boomerang, and the large platform gives him more opportunities to usmash and protect him as he spams, limiting your approach. You don't need more ways to recover from Link, he has no gimp game. If you can't make it back to the stage after being hit by him, you're doing something wrong.

Once again... for something that you don't know much about you sure do talk a lot about it... So let him spam, if everything you say is right, he can't kill you and if he just camps time will run out and you will be ahead in stock... I fail to see how my suggestion is bad based on your argument.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Okay, I apologize in advance if I'm the only one bothered by this feud you have, but... well, we all know you two don't like each other, but can you keep it civil? Especially you, Angelo. I'm not trying to take sides here, but from a neutral standpoint, you seem to like baiting Timbers a lot. That's really not helpful when we're trying to have a rational discussion.

Again, if I'm the only one bothered by it, just ignore me. I just hate seeing this go on in what I see as a very friendly character community.

I'll admit I use harsher words, but I don't think I am baiting him...

If someone shoot some one in the face because they called him stupid, that's still their fault for committing murder.

I would also like to think that when we "feud" I support my claims and not just state something to be accepted as fact... If I am wrong here let me know and I will try harder.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

It's not about supporting your claims. It's about keeping it at that and not making it personal.

 

[manhunter098]

Im going to have to back up Timbers on the DAC thing. If you have enough time to get out of the way on a larger stage you have enough time f-air him in the face (or throw an aura sphere,etc). And the same applies on a smaller stage, except that now avoiding it isnt as much of option, instead your only option is to just punish him, which really is probably the better option in every case, no?


Also something to add. If Link is trying to recover in a completely vertical fashion, then all you need to do is jump over him and press down on the c-stick. His up b is incredibly easy to stop if you can just get above it, which is harder to do the more level he is with the stage, but when he is trying to recover almost completely vertically, then he is quite vulnerable to Lucario's awesome d-air, just dont try it during the last swipe on Links recovery because you will either trade blows (which will probably work in your favor) or Link will hit first, but as long as you hit him before then, its all good.


Also on the topic of the moving ledge on Frigate. Regardless of if the ledge is up or down, Link has less recovery options there than he would on an ordinary stage since there is one less ledge to grab and thats something Link really depends on for his recovery, since you know it kind of sucks, that means when you knock him off that side, you can predict pretty much EXACTLY how he is going to try to recover because he only has his up-b, and then just hit him again, and again, until he cant get back, though, it will probably only take one hit if he is forced to use his up-b.

 

[Blue Flames]

Okay, I apologize in advance if I'm the only one bothered by this feud you have, but... well, we all know you two don't like each other, but can you keep it civil? Especially you, Angelo. I'm not trying to take sides here, but from a neutral standpoint, you seem to like baiting Timbers a lot. That's really not helpful when we're trying to have a rational discussion.

Again, if I'm the only one bothered by it, just ignore me. I just hate seeing this go on in what I see as a very friendly character community.

I agree. I was going to post that kind of post when I saw yours. All the threads in the Lucario boards is full of intelligent discussion, funny comments and friendly posts.

Except for this thread.

I think it's wrong that two persons ruin the discussion by fighting.
I don't think it's Angelo's or Timbers fault. It's the pair of them, making it all personal.

 

[Timbers]

-I've been proven wrong once here, and I humbly accepted it. You on the other hand are so far ignorant that anything I say is suddenly to fuel your hostile grounds and attempt to start trash with me. I mean, take a look at 10 or so threads on the front page and you'll find yourself quoting me in negative regards.

-Roll/spotdodge. Reread.

-Gasp, it's a platform. What ever will we do. Oh wait, aurasphere and fsmash are incredibly disjointed. My bad, forgot that works extremely well against characters who are helpless. He has a second of landing lag, and any extra additional lag from being too far over the platform. That's where he's not doing any damage with his uB, mind you.

-His boostsmash has a set distance. You're either going to get hit or you're not. He doesn't do damage all the way through the boost smash. Only the initial frames of the dash attack and then the usmash. It's not a constant hitbox. Did you know this?

-Unless you're constantly running away, you will have to use your uB one time or another. Link is too easy to gimp, why would you want to run away the entire time and not try to not take advantage of his bad recovery?

-I know about Link. I don't know about the actual Lucario/Link matchup. Is that so hard to understand? I can give my input on stages and Link's attributes/weaknesses. That's it. I don't know how to play against Link or how Link will adapt to a Lucario's playstyle. Why do you continuously try cornering me? Should I start making more personal remarks and question your honesty on these matchups? They sure don't sound very accurate, maybe I should be immature and play internet tough guy.

-I know how Link plays. I don't know how he plays against Lucario. YI gives him a a good camp game. YI gives Lucario an additional place to recover. When Link has no gimp game what-so-ever, I don't see the advantages to it. You can go ahead and point them out though, I'll listen.

Okay, I apologize in advance if I'm the only one bothered by this feud you have, but... well, we all know you two don't like each other, but can you keep it civil? Especially you, Angelo. I'm not trying to take sides here, but from a neutral standpoint, you seem to like baiting Timbers a lot. That's really not helpful when we're trying to have a rational discussion.

Again, if I'm the only one bothered by it, just ignore me. I just hate seeing this go on in what I see as a very friendly character community.

I had sent him a PM previously that, if he had anything personal to say to me, to say it in that PM. I don't know why it keeps surfacing over these boards.
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