List of things to buff Mewtwo

[LRodC]

Thanks. I know it's not perfect, but I figured it would get the message across. The forward air was the toughest to get because of Mewtwo's floatiness and the hitbox essentially does what it wants sometimes.

Didn't know about up air either. I usually just use it from below.

Also, here's the unedited footage of Forward Smash whiffing for a better view. http://youtu.be/7QyJ07hC7Yo

 

[RayNoire]

For Fair, if you SHAD and wait just a split second before Fairing, you can get the whiffbox pretty consistently.

Oh and the hurtbox! I almost forgot. Some footage of getting hit when dashing away, ledge rolling, or crossing up with SH would be a perfect addition.

...Man there is a lot of **** wrong with this character.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Like the video, but I think you should have added getting hit after using confusion.

 

[godogod]

Like the video, but I think you should have added getting hit after using confusion.

I don't think this is a big of deal as people as people say it is.

Mewtwo is the only character in the game that has a reflector and a command grab in the same moveset. What's better is that confusion move functions as both, AND it slows down momentum when falling in the air(which helps aid in his recovery).

FInally, Mewtwo can immediately shield after a confusion and be safe. The most I'd like for confusion, is to do more damage, like 10% from melee.

However, I do think mewtwo should have more combo options in general. I don't like how his combos are limited to starting with down tilt. So perhaps making down throw easier to combo with other moves by changing the trajectory or growth knockback somehow.

 

[godogod]

lighteningrodc, your video got more views than this this thread did since it was first made. 5775 views in a matter of 12 hours--congratulations!


edit: I also updated the original post and made it easier to read and address the most important complaints, which lighteningrodc covered in his video.

 

[RayNoire]

So...yeah.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

So...yeah.

......Wow.

 

[godogod]

You know what.. I'm all in favor of buffing confusion. The start up is too much., and requires more perfect timing then any other reflector move IMO. Especially against characters that have a reflector.. It's just too damn risky to play volleyball. You need absolute perfect timing to volley it back, and the extra start up screws you over.

 

[RayNoire]

Forgot to post this here before. This is a good example of our hurtbox really causing problems (making cross-ups almost impossible).

 

[Xzsmmc]

Forgot to post this here before. This is a good example of our hurtbox really causing problems (making cross-ups almost impossible).

Oh for ****'s sake. Did they just design Mewtwo on a Friday afternoon five minutes before it was time to leave?

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Wow. I didn't know Mewtwo had such hurt/hitboxes. That really sucks.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Forgot to post this here before. This is a good example of our hurtbox really causing problems (making cross-ups almost impossible).

Good lord. The discoveries just get worse and worse.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Mewtwo's shadow ball needs significantly less startup. The high startup makes the move extremely reactable and thus useless in most situations. I can't count how many times my opponent has been able to shield SB just because of how slow it comes out.

Mewtwo's dash grab and standing grab need a buff too. Matchups against shorter characters (especially kirby) are pretty much unwinnable for Mewtwo due to his grab whiffing 99% of the time.

These two changes are the only changes I feel are really necessary to make mewtwo in line with the rest of the cast. Other changes I would like to see include.

• D-throw trajectory change so it can combo into Up tilt and Up Air
• Decreased endlag on Bair and Up air so they combo into themselves better.
• Changes to Up B so that it can sweetspot the ledge earlier as opposed to making Mewtwo vulnerable for several frames before he grabs the ledge.
• Less startup on Confusion
• More KO power on U-Throw and B-Throw
• More Invincibility on Rolls, ledge getups, etc.

 

[godogod]

I don't have a problem with Shadowball's start up at all. You just have to not be predictable. Either do it when they are really close, or when they are in the air trying to get to the ground.

I agree with the grab hitbox. Needs to be lower like WFT, and slightly longer ranger range if possible.

Having a heavier weight, fixing the grab, matching the animations of up air/back air/forrward air/uptilt with their hitboxes, not have fsmash whiff at point blank, and fixing teleport from bouncing off the edge of stages are the most important to me.. Especially the weight and hitbox animations.

 

[Browny]

Teleport only bounces off the stage if you come in horizontally. Theres almost never a reason to do that. As long as you come up at an angle, it never does this. Watch how Sheik mains recover, the always come from below the stage. Just do that.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

My personal gripe with Teleport is how you don't grab the ledge immediately and the fact that Mewtwo is vulnerable when he reappears. I didn't really noticed this until I got daired 3 times in a row by a falco and kirby today. Bouncing off the stage with teleport isn't as big of a problem for me.

 

[godogod]

Teleport only bounces off the stage if you come in horizontally. Theres almost never a reason to do that. As long as you come up at an angle, it never does this. Watch how Sheik mains recover, the always come from below the stage. Just do that.

there is absolutely no freaking excuse for Mewtwo to bounce off and SD. Simply telling me to do a different way does not help solve a problem that is clearly holding him back.

 

[Smog Frog]

along with basic mechanical fixes, i've decided these would be decent buffs for our favorite bipedal cat:
disable being a shield breaking move(it'd be a reason to use it in the air)
disable reversing your momentum in the air(i'm crossing you up for a bair then i b reverse disable and you cry)
disable is already a pretty limited move(for it to work, the opponent has to be facing you, not crouching if they have one of the shorter crouches, and grounded) and really if it only breaks shield when started in the air that'd be great(after all, it has so many properties that i think making it a shield breaking move in the air wouldn't be that off)

another is shadow ball having a hitbox while charging. this is probably an oversight, but having it would be nice. it'd let him cover ledge options, have a landing option, and let him set up into usmash like our favorite bipedal jackal. he can already reverse his momentum when charging in the air so it'd be a great way to mix up landings like b reverse disable.

also giving jab a little bit more hitstun would be nice. our genetically engineered cat would enjoy guaranteed ways to kill fools out of jab.

also this is just me but i feel that fsmash kills too late. it should kill at like 80% sweetspotted from the middle of fd because it does 21%. thats among that strongest for any smash attack(off the top of my head only down angled do more) it should probably kill a little earlier.

what do you all think?

 

[RayNoire]

Do you guys know how good Mewtwo would be if he could B-Reverse Disable?

...Still not that good. But it would help.

 

[godogod]

Mewtwo needs to have a move properly attack from behind. Disable doesn't do that, and up tilt is like the only option and it has wonky hitboxes. Up tilt needs to be more reliable, or disable should get a hitbox behind like Lucas..

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

Mewtwo needs to have a move properly attack from behind.

Mewtwo needs a lot things.

 

[Xzsmmc]

After an experience today where I died at 70% from a light hit, I don't care if they pass over his hitboxes, but he needs NEEDS a weight buff. But he'll never get it. Attributes like that have never been adjusted before. Why did they nerf his weight?! Did Sakurai and co. not realize that was a big reason why he was bad in Melee? Was this on purpose? Were they like "Oh, you want Mewtwo? Here you go. Ya ****ers." I'm this close to giving up until the next patch where we'll inevitably get nothing.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

After an experience today where I died at 70% from a light hit, I don't care if they pass over his hitboxes, but he needs NEEDS a weight buff. But he'll never get it. Attributes like that have never been adjusted before. Why did they nerf his weight?! Did Sakurai and co. not realize that was a big reason why he was bad in Melee? Was this on purpose? Were they like "Oh, you want Mewtwo? Here you go. Ya ****ers." I'm this close to giving up until the next patch where we'll inevitably get nothing.

It just seems like some evil plot, doesn't it? Don't bring back for Brawl, make the fans wait 7 years, and then bring him back in the next game when all the fans want him back only to make him an even bigger trainwreck than he was in the last game he was in 14 years ago. That's the biggest F-you that you could possibly give to the fans. No character in the whole Smash series has gotten a worse overall treatment than Mewtwo has gotten. I guess we'll just wait another 7 years and hope they make him better in the next Smash game, (if they even bring him back or if there even is another game) because it's not gonna happen in this game. Sorry to use the "victim mentality", like someone told me awhile back, but I just don't see hope in this horrific mess they made out of Mewtwo. He'll be joined with Samus and Zelda as bottom tiers for the rest of this game's existence. They are never going to fix his weight, and while that isn't necessarily the biggest problem, that is what is going to turn people off from using this character more than anything else, and I don't blame them.

I'll be the first person to eat my words if he miraculously gets huge buffs in the future patches beyond what any character has ever received, but we'll just wait and see when that never happens.

 

[PhantomShab]

It just seems like some evil plot, doesn't it? Don't bring back for Brawl, make the fans wait 7 years, and then bring him back in the next game when all the fans want him back only to make him an even bigger trainwreck than he was in the last game he was in 14 years ago.

Ok, I agree that Mewtwo has glaring issues in Smash 4, but no. NO. Melee Mewtwo is the bigger trainwreck, no question.

Smash 4 Mewtwo:
Faster and has an easier time killing. Confusion is actually a functional move that wasn't programmed by HAL's janitor on his coffee break. His idle stance doesn't spread his hurtbox out and he has a shield that properly covers him. F-throw connects the mini-Shadow Balls better (at least from my experience) and a usable jab. F-air and d-air (both kills moves) are easier to land and much faster respectively. U-smash is actually usable. Dash attack is good. Just all around flows better.

Melee Mewtwo:
Heavier (but still light), Shadow Ball has a hitbox on charge, a more consistent grab, and his Teleport was safer.

I understand the frustration of Sakurai stupidly making Mewtwo lighter, I find it quite annoying myself. I also understand that Sakurai will probably never buff his weight, but fixing the hitboxes/hurtboxes that need fixing is very doable. Buffing his power a bit on top of consistent hitboxes could help Mewtwo perfectly fill the glass cannon archetype Sakurai is so dead set on giving him.

Let's just stop pretending that Smash 4 Mewtwo doesn't completely **** all over Melee Mewtwo in just about everything.

 

[godogod]

Nah, the biggest f u would be not bringing him back. But yeah, I'm just as confused as you about actually nerfing his weight. Its like its they thought about giving more power and less weight to\ "balancing him out" but buffing everyone else in every other field.

If everyone genuinely complains about his weight change, I think they will eventually. Never say never. They nerfed metanight, diddy, and others. I just don't know if they take competitve tourney players word over everyone else, because if that's the case, it probably won't happen due to Mewtwo never being used seriously. But other than that, their patches seem to be more gradual too.

 

[zeldasmash]

As much as i love Mewtwo, this is just unacceptable treatment to whom was called the "God of Pokemon". To buff Mewtwo, here are some things he needs:

- Increase in weight: This is unlikely due to weight never being addressed in any of the patches, but a 269 pound Pokemon should not be just as light, if not lighter, then JIGGLYPUFF. Mewtwo being this light is just simply stupid, did no one realize that this was one of the main reasons Mewtwo wasn't good in Melee? Yet they made it a worse issue here? If they were trying to make Mewtwo the definition of a glass cannon, then they have to make Mewtwo hit harder then he did in Melee. Thankfully he does, but there is one major issue...

- Hitbox/Hurtbox placement: This is by far Mewtwo's biggest problem: Almost none of his moves hit when they should. So many of his moves whiff when they should hit that he feels borderline unfinished. Almost all of his aerials have poor hitbox placement and almost none of them hit when they should. And his tail......in all honesty it would be better if it were chopped off. His tail makes Mewtwo's hitbox so large that he is almost just as easy to hit, if not easier, as Bowser. All of this needs to be fixed.

- Grab game: What happened here? Grabs were Mewtwo's big asset in Melee, so why were they nerfed here? Bthrow went from a amazing throw, to a decent throw. That's a pretty big drop. His Uthrow feels weaker (is it?) and Dthrow plain sucks now; it has NO follow ups at all, making Mewtwo one of the only characters to not have follow ups from a Dthrow, something he desperately needs. Reduce the endlag of this, PLEASE! Oh and another thing, fix and buff his grab: He cannot grab small characters and it overall has poor range.

- Disable: Am i the only that thinks this move needs to be a break shield move? It would make it actually usable in the air, as it basically is useless in the air.

- Confusion: Three things: Make it a kill confirm and let it follow into fair (unlikely), decrease the start-up and increase the damage.

- Shadow Ball: Less charge time and for the love of god GIVE IT THE CHARGING HITBOX .

- Teleport: Less endlag and remove the stupid bounce Mewtwo does when he hits a wall. Too many SD's with this.

 

[Furret24]

As much as i love Mewtwo, this is just unacceptable treatment to whom was called the "God of Pokemon". To buff Mewtwo, here are some things he needs:

- Increase in weight: This is unlikely due to weight never being addressed in any of the patches, but a 269 pound Pokemon should not be just as light, if not lighter, then JIGGLYPUFF. Mewtwo being this light is just simply stupid, did no one realize that this was one of the main reasons Mewtwo wasn't good in Melee? Yet they made it a worse issue here? If they were trying to make Mewtwo the definition of a glass cannon, then they have to make Mewtwo hit harder then he did in Melee. Thankfully he does, but there is one major issue...

- Hitbox/Hurtbox placement: This is by far Mewtwo's biggest problem: Almost none of his moves hit when they should. So many of his moves whiff when they should hit that he feels borderline unfinished. Almost all of his aerials have poor hitbox placement and almost none of them hit when they should. And his tail......in all honesty it would be better if it were chopped off. His tail makes Mewtwo's hitbox so large that he is almost just as easy to hit, if not easier, as Bowser. All of this needs to be fixed.

- Grab game: What happened here? Grabs were Mewtwo's big asset in Melee, so why were they nerfed here? Bthrow went from a amazing throw, to a decent throw. That's a pretty big drop. His Uthrow feels weaker (is it?) and Dthrow plain sucks now; it has NO follow ups at all, making Mewtwo one of the only characters to not have follow ups from a Dthrow, something he desperately needs. Reduce the endlag of this, PLEASE! Oh and another thing, fix and buff his grab: He cannot grab small characters and it overall has poor range.

- Disable: Am i the only that thinks this move needs to be a break shield move? It would make it actually usable in the air, as it basically is useless in the air.

- Confusion: Three things: Make it a kill confirm and let it follow into fair (unlikely), decrease the start-up and increase the damage.

- Shadow Ball: Less charge time and for the love of god GIVE IT THE CHARGING HITBOX .

- Teleport: Less endlag and remove the stupid bounce Mewtwo does when he hits a wall. Too many SD's with this.

Actually, Mewtwo is 4 units heavier than Jigglypuff and falls faster.

Personally, i'd like to see F-Smash and D-Smash should become faster, be stronger, or both. They should not be so slow, considering that they only have decent KO power (They hit on Frame 19 and 21 respectively).

 

[HakuryuVision]

As much as i love Mewtwo, this is just unacceptable treatment to whom was called the "God of Pokemon". To buff Mewtwo, here are some things he needs:

- Increase in weight: This is unlikely due to weight never being addressed in any of the patches, but a 269 pound Pokemon should not be just as light, if not lighter, then JIGGLYPUFF. Mewtwo being this light is just simply stupid, did no one realize that this was one of the main reasons Mewtwo wasn't good in Melee? Yet they made it a worse issue here? If they were trying to make Mewtwo the definition of a glass cannon, then they have to make Mewtwo hit harder then he did in Melee. Thankfully he does, but there is one major issue...

- Hitbox/Hurtbox placement: This is by far Mewtwo's biggest problem: Almost none of his moves hit when they should. So many of his moves whiff when they should hit that he feels borderline unfinished. Almost all of his aerials have poor hitbox placement and almost none of them hit when they should. And his tail......in all honesty it would be better if it were chopped off. His tail makes Mewtwo's hitbox so large that he is almost just as easy to hit, if not easier, as Bowser. All of this needs to be fixed.

- Grab game: What happened here? Grabs were Mewtwo's big asset in Melee, so why were they nerfed here? Bthrow went from a amazing throw, to a decent throw. That's a pretty big drop. His Uthrow feels weaker (is it?) and Dthrow plain sucks now; it has NO follow ups at all, making Mewtwo one of the only characters to not have follow ups from a Dthrow, something he desperately needs. Reduce the endlag of this, PLEASE! Oh and another thing, fix and buff his grab: He cannot grab small characters and it overall has poor range.

- Disable: Am i the only that thinks this move needs to be a break shield move? It would make it actually usable in the air, as it basically is useless in the air.

- Confusion: Three things: Make it a kill confirm and let it follow into fair (unlikely), decrease the start-up and increase the damage.

- Shadow Ball: Less charge time and for the love of god GIVE IT THE CHARGING HITBOX .

- Teleport: Less endlag and remove the stupid bounce Mewtwo does when he hits a wall. Too many SD's with this.

I would be actually OK with his light weight, if he actually had the kill power everyone claims he had.

"Never hit" is an exaggaration, but i do agree his hitboxes need fixing. It's really frustrating when Fsmash misses opponents STANDING FRICKIN' IN FRONT OF YOU. Or Fair. Or uptilt.

And same with his grab.

Again, i'd be okay with him bein one of the lightest characters IF the whole "glass-cannon" thing would actually work.

Edit: Oh, and absolutely agree with teleport.
I get so incredibly salty when i SD because teleport bounces me off. XD

 

[godogod]

Everyone's throws got nerfed in knockback power since Melee. Mewtwo's biggest problem with throws is that his grabs whiff half the time against small characters and characters that are running.

I agree that disable needs a buff in the air at least. All I can think of is more damage or the same stun effect.

Mewtwo DOES need to be heavier. AS I've said many times before, at least get his Melee weight back and up to midweight around 90-100. Anything heavier is more than likely won't happen if he gets a weight buff change in the first place.

 

[LRodC]

I think his throws are fine with the exception of Down. I definitely wouldn't mind power buffs on them though. Down throw needs to have the ability to combo into things. As of now, I think it's his worst throw by far with very little uses.

 

[Furret24]

I think his throws are fine with the exception of Down. I definitely wouldn't mind power buffs on them though. Down throw needs to have the ability to combo into things. As of now, I think it's his worst throw by far with very little uses.

Mewtwo's D-Throw is arguably the worst down throw if not THE worst throw in the game.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo's D-Throw is arguably the worst down throw if not THE worst throw in the game.

It's not the worst throw in the game. That's probably Marth or Lucina's forward or back throw since they do about 4-5% damage, don't go a lot of distance, and have zero follow ups, or Villager's forward throw for the same reasons. Mewtwo's Down Throw is at least a guessing game, and you can potentially follow up with something if your opponent screws up. It also does 9% damage.

 

[HakuryuVision]

I agree that disable needs a buff in the air at least. All I can think of is more damage or the same stun effect.

Imagine it would make opponents in air tumble/helpless. (like when you footstool them in air, but without them being able to do anything after that)
Would be hillarious to gimp people off-stage with that.

 

[LRodC]

So can someone explain to me how Mewtwo's hurtbox is extended during his tail attacks? I tested this in training mode, and the tip of the attacks is intangible. This is similar to Bowser's forward tilt and forward smash which have the same properties. However, what makes Mewtwo worse in this regard? Don't most moves attached to the user's body act like this unless programmed otherwise (such as charizard's up tilt and Mario's up smash)? Wouldn't this be a thing affecting multiple characters?

Also that would definitely be awesome for Disable and make sense, but there's no way it will ever get the stun effect in the air. That would be busted. I'd rather it just get more knockback.

 

[Furret24]

So can someone explain to me how Mewtwo's hurtbox is extended during his tail attacks? I tested this in training mode, and the tip of the attacks is intangible. This is similar to Bowser's forward tilt and forward smash which have the same properties. However, what makes Mewtwo worse in this regard? Don't most moves attached to the user's body act like this unless programmed otherwise (such as charizard's up tilt and Mario's up smash)? Wouldn't this be a thing affecting multiple characters?

Also that would definitely be awesome for Disable and make sense, but there's no way it will ever get the stun effect in the air. That would be busted. I'd rather it just get more knockback.

If this goes for all of these characters, Mewtwo gets it worst since his tail is so long.

 

[Browny]

So can someone explain to me how Mewtwo's hurtbox is extended during his tail attacks? I tested this in training mode, and the tip of the attacks is intangible. This is similar to Bowser's forward tilt and forward smash which have the same properties. However, what makes Mewtwo worse in this regard? Don't most moves attached to the user's body act like this unless programmed otherwise (such as charizard's up tilt and Mario's up smash)? Wouldn't this be a thing affecting multiple characters?

Also that would definitely be awesome for Disable and make sense, but there's no way it will ever get the stun effect in the air. That would be busted. I'd rather it just get more knockback.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-f...-revamp-round-two.398158/page-8#post-19695509

http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-f...-revamp-round-two.398158/page-8#post-19731142

Roughly 2/5 (40%) of Mewtwos tail is intangible, not just the tip.

The idea of Mewtwos hitbox extending on this tail is just a massive misconception, one of many that plagues smashboards.

For an example of an attack which ACTUALLY extends the hurtbox, look at Yoshis fair
http://gfycat.com/AmbitiousTintedHornshark

 

[LRodC]

Well the tail attacks do extend the hurtbox, but not throughout the entire tail which is where the misconception mostly lies. The trunk part clashing with another attack can actually hurt Mewtwo and he will usually lose the exchange, but the 40% intangible part will usually win or lose depending on the attack it's challenging. But then again like I mentioned, I believe most other characters with body parts attacking have this same issue (like Yoshi) unless programmed otherwise.

 

[EarthBound18]

A mechanic I thought of. When Mewtwo has shadowball charged up, all of his shadow attacks should deal more damage and knock back as well as having larger hitboxes.

 

[LRodC]

A mechanic I thought of. When Mewtwo has shadowball charged up, all of his shadow attacks should deal more damage and knock back as well as having larger hitboxes.

By shadow based attacks, you mean smashes, forward air, down air, and forward throw, right? If that's the case, it would indirectly nerf uses of shadow ball, since people would want a more powerful throw option, an earlier killing up smash, and a more powerful forward aerial with a larger hitbox. It's just simply changing how Mewtwo works, and that doesn't really solve anything. And besides, it's too late for any new mechanical changes. Just buff Mewtwo's current moveset independently from Shadow Ball and leave SB how it is. It's already one of the best projectiles in the game, it doesn't need many changes.

 

[Revibe]

Incoming, Uncharted/Rogue Opinion here:

I think Up B should Teleport mewtwo and anyone near mewtwo to the spot were mewtwo went. Also it should NOT cost him a special fall from this, so he could use it to poof an opponent over the edge without SD'ing.