List of things to buff Mewtwo

[godogod]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss Mewtwo's shortcomings and accompanied buffs for not only smash fans, but in hopes of reaching the developers to make him a competitive and enjoyable fighter in a future patch for the smash community!

Here's a video created by Brian C that recognizes much of Mewtwo's shortcomings:

Summarized Complaints From the Video
1. Up air, forward air back air, up tilt, have animations that do not match their hitboxes and tend to miss completely as a result
2. Forward smash tends to whiff at point blank range
3. Grab animation whiffs often, particularly against short characters
4. Mewtwo is the second lightest character in the game, even significantly lighter than his melee counterpart(from 85 in melee to 72 in smash four). Doesn't help that he has a large hurtbox
5. Teleport often fails to connect to certain stage ledges, often making him bounce away from the ledge leaving the player to SD. Teleport also leaves him vulnerable to damage throughout the animation, unlike other up special recoveries that behave similarly to teleport from other characters(Palutena and Zelda)

That being said, the most universal buffs smashboard mewtwo users have agreed on are:
1. An increase in weight. Back to Melee weight(85) at least or up to medium weight(95-100).
2. Fixing hitboxes with their animations for up air/back air/forward air, to connect more reliably
3. Fixing up tilt, forward smash(point blank range) to connect more reliably.
4. Grab hitbox is fixed, notably against short characters and when grabbing while dashing
5. Shadowball having a hitbox when charging like SSBM.
6. Faster tilts and aerials, specifically up tilt, up air, and back air.
7. Fixing the self destructs when Mewtwo teleports to an edge(under the stage) form an angle successfully,instead of bouncing back.
8. Down smash having a larger hitbox, or being able to hit from behind like Lucas. Up tilt hitting more reliably and coming out faster to cover rollers is also good.
9. Disable having more range on the ground, and more knockback in the air

Feel free to post your thoughts and ideas.

 

[Karsticles]

I think a thread title like "Mewtwo Community Buff List" would be more clear. I am glad you made this thread. I don't want a weight increase, I just want his low weight to be worth it. Mewtwo can survive forever by dancing around in the air between double jump, Confusion, and teleport. He struggles offensively.

Here is my list:

Tail: Has no hurtbox, ever.

Forward Dodge: Total active frames reduced.
Back Dodge: Total active frames reduced.

Jab: Jab1 transitions to Jab2 faster.
Jab1 no longer whiffs on short/crouching characters.

Grab: Grab range increased to better match the animation.
Grab no longer whiffs on short/crouching characters.

Up Throw: Knockback increased.
Forward Throw: Damage increased, characters can no longer evade the shadow balls.
Down Throw: Recovery significantly reduced.

Up Tilt: Startup and recovery reduced. Hitbox now matches the full tail animation.

Forward Tilt: Startup and recovery reduced.

Forward Smash: No longer has a blind spot directly in front of Mewtwo.

Down Smash: Lower vertical hitbox expanded.

Up Smash: Vacuum effect on hit increased; characters can no longer pop out.

Forward Air: Lower vertical hitbox expanded to match the animation.

Back Air: The animation and hitbox are now identical. Landing lag reduced.

Neutral Air: Lower vertical hitbox expanded to hit shorter characters. Landing lag significantly reduced.

Disable: Causes significant shield damage.

Confusion: Now results in enough frame advantage on hit to link Up Tilt. Startup reduced to 8 frames.

Shadow Ball: Charging animation now has a hitbox. Firing animation from neutral has decreased startup. Knockback and hitstun increased for all power levels.

Teleport: Post-teleport slide removed. Mewtwo is now completely invulnerable during his travel between departure and arrival. Recovery reduced slightly.

 

[RayNoire]

We should put the suggested buffs into tiers so that the most important ones are given the most emphasis.

Top tier changes for me would be Uair, Utilt, Dsmash, Fair, and grab hitbox changes to match the animations, as well as fixing the Mewtwocide.

 

[SafCar]

Don't forget the tail hurtbox. It's silly that it's not more like a Disjoint.

 

[Deranged Lunatic]

Alright, here's my personal list of ideas.

Weight: 72 -> 85

New Down Smash: Mewtwo coats its hand in dark energy and swipes low on both sides, akin to its get-up attack after tripping. Damage and knockback unchanged, as it will still be its weakest Smash attack besides sourspotted Forward Smash.

Universal tail changes: Tail is no longer a hurtbox. All tail-based attack hitboxes will now properly match their animations.

Grab: Increased grab range. Pummel does 1% more.

Up and back throw: Kill approx 25% earlier.

Down throw: Animation replaced with that of old Down Smash. Knockback, trajectory and endlag changed so that Mewtwo has the frame advantage and can get guaranteed followups at lower percentages. Same damage, but only one hit.

Teleport: Revert to Melee status so that it has almost no lag and is the superior option to rolling. Fix the issues that occasionally cause Mewtwo to rebound off of stages and self-destruct. Remove the horizontal momentum effect upon reappearing.

Disable: B-reversable. Projectile properties removed, can no longer be reflected or absorbed. More reach vertically downwards, so that it doesn't miss on small characters like Pikachu during their airdodge landing lag.

Confusion: Starts on frame 6, down from 12.

I feel that these changes will help alleviate the issues of Mewtwos kit being generally wonky and its difficulty in setting up and beginning strings, while retaining the weakness of being quite light, very floaty and having almost no way to threaten anyone below it.

 

[Karsticles]

Alright, here's my personal list of ideas.

Weight: 72 -> 85

New Down Smash: Mewtwo coats its hand in dark energy and swipes low on both sides, akin to its get-up attack after tripping. Damage and knockback unchanged, as it will still be its weakest Smash attack besides sourspotted Forward Smash.

Universal tail changes: Tail is no longer a hurtbox. All tail-based attack hitboxes will now properly match their animations.

Grab: Increased grab range. Pummel does 1% more.

Up and back throw: Kill approx 25% earlier.

Down throw: Animation replaced with that of old Down Smash. Knockback, trajectory and endlag changed so that Mewtwo has the frame advantage and can get guaranteed followups at lower percentages. Same damage, but only one hit.

Teleport: Revert to Melee status so that it has almost no lag and is the superior option to rolling. Fix the issues that occasionally cause Mewtwo to rebound off of stages and self-destruct. Remove the horizontal momentum effect upon reappearing.

Disable: B-reversable. Projectile properties removed, can no longer be reflected or absorbed. More reach vertically downwards, so that it doesn't miss on small characters like Pikachu during their airdodge landing lag.

Confusion: Starts on frame 6, down from 12.

I feel that these changes will help alleviate the issues of Mewtwos kit being generally wonky and its difficulty in setting up and beginning strings, while retaining the weakness of being quite light, very floaty and having almost no way to threaten anyone below it.

Full on animation changes are extremely unlikely. They cost a lot of money.

 

[Deranged Lunatic]

Full on animation changes are extremely unlikely. They cost a lot of money.

You are right. Yet, Mewtwo is the only character with a Down Smash that hits only one side, besides ZSS, who gets a heavy stun effect from it. I do not feel that it is justified at all, even if it seems like the move is made for Disable, Up Smash and sweetspotted Forward Smash both hit harder, so there's never really a good reason to use it. Besides that, I wouldn't mind if they just copy its get-up attack animation after tripping.

 

[Mightyno.M]

Highest priority
Tail is disjointed
Fixed hitboxes
More weight
Better teleport
Confusion causes knock down
Disable ignores shield
Lowest priority imo

 

[godogod]

karsticlkles, I don't think I can change the title . I see no option for it.

 

[RayNoire]

Don't forget the tail hurtbox. It's silly that it's not more like a Disjoint.

Eh. I mean it is a part of his body. Honestly I think they should remove more disjoints rather than adding them. (Ganondorf's shoes for example)

What they should change though is the hurtbox around the tail that's not attached to Mewtwo. I have a replay of a Mario Usmash hitting Mewtwo from about Mewtwo's Dtilt length away and above Mario's height. It seems like his hurtbox is just a giant rectangle.

Also Dsmash is much better than Fsmash.

 

[Deranged Lunatic]

Also Dsmash is much better than Fsmash.

How do you figure? Forward Smash has more range, comes out 3 frames earlier, and when sweetspotted, kills earlier and does more damage.

 

[RayNoire]

How do you figure? Forward Smash has more range, comes out 3 frames earlier, and when sweetspotted, kills earlier and does more damage.

Dsmash has much less endlag and, for all its hitbox issues, doesn't whiff point blank.

The only real use for Fsmash is post-Disable on short characters or by the ledge. Otherwise both Disable and Dsmash outclass it due to safety.

 

[pikazz]

My list:
UAir Hitboxes Starts 1-2 frames earlier (so it can hit grounded foes). End much earlier so it can combo itself

UAir and NAir landing lag is much faster

DAir can SHAC and hitboxes starts earlier to hit grounded opponents without whiff

UTilt is 1.1-1.5x faster or ends earlier

DTilt ends 2-5 frames earlier

Grab has a bigger hitbox so it whiff less

Confusion has little faster start up. gives mewtwo frame advantes or 5 frames faster end lag

Jab endlag is faster

jab to Jab Loop is faster

UThrow and BThrow kills earlier

DThrow ends earlier and has less KBG and more steady KB (meaning that you can DThrow to FAir as a true combo at any %)

Rolls are 1.1-1.25x faster

Shadow Ball Start up is 1.1-1.25x faster

Teleport Start up is faster and has intagiable frames (that he cant be hit) and faster end lag

Weight from 72 to 80~

Nerfs:
if UAir gets buffed, Less KBG but little more steady Knockback so it can combo itself but cant really kill on its own (we dont want another post-Diddys Hoo Hah)

How do you figure? Forward Smash has more range, comes out 3 frames earlier, and when sweetspotted, kills earlier and does more damage.

it depence on the opponent.

on opponent that dies easy upward (jigglypuff, Peach, Rosalina) dies earlier by DSmash while opponents that fastfall/Bad recovery (Fox, Ganon) dies earlier by SideSmash

 

[RayNoire]

Dair already SHACs; the timing is just very tight (and C-Stick fast-fall doesn't help any).

 

[PhantomShab]

You are right. Yet, Mewtwo is the only character with a Down Smash that hits only one side, besides ZSS

Lucas and Ryu.

 

[Deranged Lunatic]

Lucas and Ryu. Also, I think Robin does too when he/she doesn't have the Levin Sword.

Apologies. I don't own Lucas or Ryu.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The most obvious would be weight, since Mewtwo is a 269 lb. Pokemon, and yet it now weighs less than Mr. Game & Watch. Floaty does not equal lightweight, which is the case with Samus, where even though she falls slowly, she's actually on the heavy side. Likewise, Fox falls quite fast for a lightweight.

I would say increase Mewtwo's weight to around 108 (tied with Samus and Bowser Jr.), but it would have to have its falling speed be made slower (preferably tied with Samus, if not slower) so that the above average weight would be offset by a weakness to getting KO'd vertically.

As for the trophy description...

Mewtwo puts its psychic powers to great use in this game. Not only does it have floaty jumps, but its telekinesis gives its attacks extra reach and its throws added power. Mewtwo's body is also on the heavy side, but its low gravity and tall height makes it quite easy to launch vertically, so if you're willing to risk getting in close, it might just be worth it!

 

[PhantomShab]

Apologies. I don't own Lucas or Ryu.

No problem.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I agree with the changes Karst would like. He plays M2 more then I do.

 

[godogod]

So far.. Seems like the majority agrees on

Attributes(weight, speed, etc)
+increase in weight. Somewhere between 80 to 108(samus weight).

Standard Moves(ground and aerial)
+fix aerials (fix hitboxes to match their animations so they don't whiff)
-tilts need to start faster
+forward smash needs to not whiff at point blank
+no hurt box on tail?

Techs(grabs, rolls, etc)
+grab needs more range and doesn't whiff against short characters
+Up and back throw killing earlier
+rolls having less frames/faster

Specials
+Confusion needs to start up faster/be able to combo with another move
+Disable needs more range or work against shields or reflectors in some way
+Shadowball needs to do damage while charging
+Teleport needs horizontal momentum removed.. Offer him complete protection for full animation of the move.


Anything else? Anyone agree on all of these?


Personally
I'd like Shadowball recoil in the air cut in half at least, or removed entirely.
What do you all think about down smash btw?


Other than that, hoping Mewtwo will be as heavy as Samus is a bit unrealistic at this point. I doubt sakurai is going to give him 33 points in weight..That's huge. I think realistically we can expect Melee Mewtwo weight(85), and at the most I can see 100(even then I'm not betting on it). I don't see them changing the original trophy description about flying away far when struck either.

 

[LRodC]

Yeah, I can see 80-85 being reasonable. Still light and floaty, but not straight up balloon weight. Shadow Ball's recoil will likely stay and be a part of the move.

I think Down Smash is good, but I think it should have its starting lag lowered slightly and perhaps have a slightly bigger hitbox.

Also, where exactly does forward smash whiff? At the tip or the base? Trying to test it out.

Everything else I have no issues with.

https://miiverse.nintendo.net/posts/AYMHAAACAAADVHkNKIXVMQ

Here's a Miiverse post I made trying to highlight exactly where Mewtwo's hitbox issues are. If you want to bring forth any issues to either hitboxes or anything else Mewtwo has, feel free to do it here. I figure it's the best chance to be noticed by higher ups.

Edit: Whoops, wrong link.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mewtwos arms. Hitbox starts at his hands.

 

[LRodC]

Thanks. Whiffs when the opponent walks towards you, just like Zelda's f-tilt.

 

[Karsticles]

Dsmash doesn't need to hit behind him. It is a signature weakness he has.

HOWEVER!

We can't B-reverse Disable right now, and we should be able to. Most characters can do that.

I am still skeptical about a weight buff.

 

[LRodC]

I'm part of the camp that actually thinks down smash is better than forward smash just because of the lesser end lag on the former. It's safer to just throw out there. Not that forward smash is useless (better disable punish, better ranged option, more powerful at tip), but I generally find it a safer option on a character that needs to be safe at all times.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Hitbox fixes on tail attacks.
Up air sweetspot does more knockback.
Faster attacks with less lag, especially aerials.
Better grab range.
Shadow Ball has a charging hitbox.
Weight buff (around 85 to 100).
Less lag on air Teleport.
Up Smash has larger and lower hitboxes.
Down throw has significantly less lag.

Question: does being put in a dizzy state lower your hurtbox? Tried doing up smash point blank against dhd in training mode and it missed when he was stunned, but did not when he was standing.

 

[pikazz]

the disable can be reflected, there is no problem with that (also, it adds a funny effect that if mewtwo is using disable on a mirror, mewtwo will be disabled)

but the B-reverse should be able on disable tho

 

[LRodC]

I wouldn't expect any large mechanical changes (except maybe weight but even then I'm not getting my hopes up). Mostly just fixes to his frame data, damage, knockback, and hitboxes like most other characters. If we're lucky, perhaps we can get a down throw angle change and speed up similar to Link.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Weight: I don't want to be too optimistic here, because Mewtwo's design this time around is just resolved around his lightweight frame (which I don't ****ing understand) so I don't think he'll exceed his Melee weightof 85. So if we can't have anything else, 85 is the way to go. It's still ridiculously low however.

D Smash: Needs to come out faster and have wayyy less lag afterwards. Or it needs to behave more like Lucas's D Smash, with it's lingering hitbox. Or it needs to KO people like, 20% earlier or something. Anyway, it's a move that needs to be fixed.

F Smash: More range, no more whiffing, less cool down, and maybe even more damage / KO power. Since weight isn't the direction to go with Mewtwo, he better be needing extra heavy blasts from that glasscanon of his. Also, way more priority on this one.

U Tilt: More range, fix the whiffing, add the Melee sweetspot and well I dunno this move is just weird in general I don't think it can even be fixed.

D Tilt: More range, sweet spot like in Melee which sends people upwards nicely for a follow up, and it may come out faster to because this move is one of Mewtwo's most important. With that said, increase the damage to. Increased hitstun also would be nice.

F Tilt: More range, less cool down, more damage, more hitstun and it can come out way faster to.

N Air: Increase priority, range (meaning, increase the hitbox) and especially damage. This move needs to build up damage about as good as Yoshi's D Air at low %s. Also let the move finish it's sparky animation when hitting the ground, or make cancel combos possible.

U Air: I miss Melee's U Air, bring it back. 1..2..3... POOF! Mewtwo forgot Crappy Smash 4 UP AERIAL and learned... OLD SKOOL MELEE UP AERIAL!!!

F Air: Better hitbox, make it kill even earlier, make it come out faster to and increase priority

Shadow Ball: Make it charge faster, and also obviously make it damage people while charging because why the hell was that even removed? I think making this move charge faster would already bring a lot of change.

Confusion: Make it a legit combo starter. I want something guranteed out of it, even if it's just a D Tilt or Jab.

Jab: More damage, more range, more hitstun whoa... Does Mewtwo have the worst jab in the game or not?

Disable: Give it more range or something I dunno.

Grab range: Obviously make this better.

B Throw: Make this move kill again like in Melee.

U Throw: Make this kill earlier.

F Throw: Increase damage on each Shadow Ball

D Throw: Make it a legit set up

Pummel: Increase damage

 

[Karsticles]

You know what would be great for Utilt?

Let it combo off of jab at certain ranges, and let the entire move have the sourspot that links into Usmash. It would help solve Mewtwo's current KO issue and give Utilt a defined role.

 

[LRodC]

Can't you already link left and right up tilts into an up smash? Or is that not guaranteed? Pretty sure I saw that in a video somewhere.

 

[RayNoire]

You know what would be great for Utilt?

Let it combo off of jab at certain ranges, and let the entire move have the sourspot that links into Usmash. It would help solve Mewtwo's current KO issue and give Utilt a defined role.

It already does combo off of jab pretty well. I land jab-Utilt-Jab-Dtilt-Fair pretty regularly, and jab-Utilt-Usmash can be a KO option for some characters.

Mewtwo definitely doesn't have the worst jab in the game. Hitbox aside it's actually one of the best. I felt right at home coming from pre-patch Link (whose jab was easily top 5).

 

[MYU2]

I noticed that default Mewtwo usually gets KOed by 2 side smashes (Ganondorf) and 5 side smashes (Mario) however i buffed him up with the use of equipment now Ganondorf KOs Mewtwo with 3 and Mario KOs with 6 side smashes.

 

[Karsticles]

It already does combo off of jab pretty well. I land jab-Utilt-Jab-Dtilt-Fair pretty regularly, and jab-Utilt-Usmash can be a KO option for some characters.

Mewtwo definitely doesn't have the worst jab in the game. Hitbox aside it's actually one of the best. I felt right at home coming from pre-patch Link (whose jab was easily top 5).

Can't you already link left and right up tilts into an up smash? Or is that not guaranteed? Pretty sure I saw that in a video somewhere.

Oh, I think his Jab1 is great. It just needs a faster transition to Jab2.

The problem is that Utilt only leads to Usmash on a sourspot hit, and it highly variable. Just make all of Utilt sourspot. No one wants the "good" hit anyway.

Jab into Utilt is probably not a true combo. Luigi can Nair between Jab and Dtilt, and Utilt is slower than Dtilt.

 

[Browny]

You are right. Yet, Mewtwo is the only character with a Down Smash that hits only one side, besides ZSS, who gets a heavy stun effect from it. I do not feel that it is justified at all, even if it seems like the move is made for Disable, Up Smash and sweetspotted Forward Smash both hit harder, so there's never really a good reason to use it. Besides that, I wouldn't mind if they just copy its get-up attack animation after tripping.

Ryu and Lucas have a similar dsmash.

And people need to be real with confusion. If it true combo'd into anything it would be the best special move in the entire game by some margin. Many characters have a move that is a reflector, some have a command grab, some have momentum stalling moves and some have combo starters. To have all of those characteristics in one attack would be ridiculous.

I would never trade its reflecting, momentum shifting and command grab properties to make it a combo starter. We've got 3 really good traits in one move, don't get too greedy.

Disable however, could do something more like shield damage as someone said earlier.

As for my changes:

Obviously, the hitbox on bair, utilt and uair to match the animation. No change on damage or knockback.
Fair hit lower, id trade the hitbox right on his body for that.
Upb go just a bit further
Grab hit characters low on the ground (doesnt have to hit crouching characters, just hit things like a landing pikachu)
Shadowball full charge a second faster
Ftilt to do a more damage at max range

 

[RayNoire]

Oh, I think his Jab1 is great. It just needs a faster transition to Jab2.

The problem is that Utilt only leads to Usmash on a sourspot hit, and it highly variable. Just make all of Utilt sourspot. No one wants the "good" hit anyway.

Jab into Utilt is probably not a true combo. Luigi can Nair between Jab and Dtilt, and Utilt is slower than Dtilt.

Frame-3 nairs basically kill everything out of jab. But it's pretty reliable against other characters.

That's why Mewtwo's matchups are really polarizing. He has tons of combo potential, but only like 2 or 3 actual true combos.

 

[LRodC]

I think Mewtwo has one of the best potential jab combos in the game due to the awesome range. The transition just needs to be sped up. Seeing as how characters like Lucario and Diddy had theirs changed to be more reliable, it's not entirely out of the realm of possibility.

 

[Karsticles]

Frame-3 nairs basically kill everything out of jab. But it's pretty reliable against other characters.

That's why Mewtwo's matchups are really polarizing. He has tons of combo potential, but only like 2 or 3 actual true combos.

At high %, yes. At low %, I just don't think jab combos into anything.

 

[RayNoire]

At high %, yes. At low %, I just don't think jab combos into anything.

*raises eyebrow*

...Maybe it depends on the definition of "combo," which is always weird in the Smash community.
But there are definitely fully guaranteed follow-ups from jab at low%, they're just character dependent.

 

[Karsticles]

*raises eyebrow*

...Maybe it depends on the definition of "combo," which is always weird in the Smash community.
But there are definitely fully guaranteed follow-ups from jab at low%, they're just character dependent.

I've had lots of characters shield between Jab1 and Dtilt.