List of things to buff Mewtwo

[RayNoire]

I've had lots of characters shield between Jab1 and Dtilt.

Fast-fallers can. Super-floaty characters can escape too.

Generally for combos we prefer characters that don't fall on either extreme (and don't have a 3-frame nair). Most characters fit that bill, although unfortunately most top tiers have either one trait or the other.

 

[LRodC]

Who in the game has a frame 3 or lower aerial? I would imagine Mario, Doc, Luigi, Yoshi, and Sheik off the top of my head (RIP Diddy's up air). It's probably good to know.

 

[Chiroz]

Who in the game has a frame 3 or lower aerial? I would imagine Mario, Doc, Luigi, Yoshi, and Sheik off the top of my head (RIP Diddy's up air). It's probably good to know.

As a rule of thumb (although not entirely 100% accurate) any character that shares that N-Air animation is frame 3.

So I think you only missed Fox. Pikachu also has a frame 3 aerial (that looks different at least). Also Luma most of the time takes no knockback from tail attacks and N-Air and she almost suffers no hitstun so Luma is another character we should be wary about when attacking. I think maybe Doc's isn't frame 3 but I am not sure.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Doc's nair is frame 3. Regarding frame data, Mario and Doc have the same data on their shared moves (i.e. everything but dair and down b).

I think Villager's nair is frame 3, as are Pac Man's and Sheik's. Little Mac has a frame 2 nair.

 

[LRodC]

Kind of funny that Little Mac has one of the fastest in the game. Do you think Mewtwo's n-air should be sped up (maybe to 4 or 5 frames) so it's a better OoS option, or do you think it's fine as it is now?

 

[Dhillz521]

Just make him Shadow Ball have a Hurtbox while charging. Like in Melee.

 

[Chiroz]

How about as the first change ever is to make his hurtbox not completely ridiculous and stupidly against himself.

I honestly think Sakurai fears projectiles and over nerfs all chars with strong projectiles. After all he thought Samus was the strongest char in both Melee and Smash 4 beta (and seriously nerfed her Charge Ball in Brawl for no reason whatsoever).



Photos as proof just in case you don't believe how unbeliveably bad they programmed Mewtwo's hurtbox.

 

[LRodC]

I'm not trying to say that the photos you posted aren't true or anything or that Mewtwo's hurtbox isn't flawed... But I seriously doubt that he's the only character in the game with that issue. That, or Link's down air has a bigger hitbox than it should. Those photos don't tell the whole story.

Aside from that however, he's going to always have a big hurtbox. He's a tall character, it can't be helped. At least the tail isn't part of it this time during most normal play.

 

[Chiroz]

I'm not trying to say that the photos you posted aren't true or anything or that Mewtwo's hurtbox isn't flawed... But I seriously doubt that he's the only character in the game with that issue. That, or Link's down air has a bigger hitbox than it should. Those photos don't tell the whole story.

Aside from that however, he's going to always have a big hurtbox. He's a tall character, it can't be helped. At least the tail isn't part of it this time during most normal play.

It could be Link's D-Air too, but if it is, that's still a pretty stupid hitbox. Mewtwo's hurtbox is still bigger than his model which there is no reason for it to be, Mewtwo's model is already huge, why make the hurtbox even bigger?


I will actually test the Link's D-Air in training mode and check what the hitbox looks like against other chars.



Edit: You were right though, Link's D-Air has a stupid hitbox, it goes beyond Link's full model horizontally.

Edit 2: But after a bit of testing I have concluded that it's a combination of both things, Link's D-Air hitbox and also Mewtwo having a huge hurtbox. When testing on Mario/Marth Link needs to be much closer (horizontally speaking) than he needs to be when testing on Mewtwo/Falcon.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I find to be an extremely poorly designed character. He's ridiculously light, but also extremely floaty and has a large hurtbox, making him an easy target to hit. However, he doesn't have many pros to balance out his frailty, which I feel is a huge issue since he has several other flaws such as his poor combo game. I'd say that
deserves the following changes to make up for his significant issues.

• Increase U-Throw's Knockback so that it KOes at 115% w/ no rage.
• Increase B-Throw's Knockback so that it KOes at 100% near the ledge w/ no rage.
• Let Mewtwo act faster out of D-Throw.
• Decrease Shadow ball endlag and startup.

 

[Chiroz]

I find to be an extremely poorly designed character. He's ridiculously light, but also extremely floaty and has a large hurtbox, making him an easy target to hit. However, he doesn't have many pros to balance out his frailty, which I feel is a huge issue since he has several other flaws such as his poor combo game. I'd say that
deserves the following changes to make up for his significant issues.

• Increase U-Throw's Knockback so that it KOes at 115% w/ no rage.
• Increase B-Throw's Knockback so that it KOes at 100% near the ledge w/ no rage.
• Let Mewtwo act faster out of D-Throw.
• Decrease Shadow ball endlag and startup.

Shadow Ball endlag is already very low.

U-Throw and B-Throw aren't the buffs we need, we need a buff to our air mobility/combo breakers and our combo game, we already have enough kill power.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Shadow Ball endlag is already very low.

U-Throw and B-Throw aren't the buffs we need, we need a buff to our air mobility/combo breakers and our combo game, we already have enough kill power.

I felt that mewtwo needs more ways to secure stocks since he's dying at very early percentages and a majority of his other kill move have quite a bit of risk.

That being said, what your saying is true. I doubt the devs will buff mewtwo's aerial mobility, as they have never changed the speed of any character, but changing mewtwo's nair so it has more range below him and is faster would probably fix his issue of being combo'd.

 

[Chiroz]

I felt that mewtwo needs more ways to secure stocks since he's dying at very early percentages and a majority of his other kill move have quite a bit of risk.

That being said, what your saying is true. I doubt the devs will buff mewtwo's aerial mobility, as they have never changed the speed of any character, but changing mewtwo's nair so it has more range below him and is faster would probably fix his issue of being combo'd.

Yea, one of my preferred changes is reducing N-Air startup (to about 2/3rds of what it is now), increasing it's hitbox size and increasing the hitstun on the small hits so that when you land after hitting your opponent you aren't instantly punished.

 

[Karsticles]

Yes, Nair needs all of that, but it really only needs the hitbox change for the startup. Small characters shouldn't get away for free. Right now, the move is already extremely safe after the last patch. Probably half of my damage comes from smart Nair usage these days.

Uncharged Shadow Ball is far more problematic, though. We shouldn't be getting punished on hit from that.

Killing faster and dying slower are nice, but Mewtwo should be the scion of control. With perfect play, he should never be touched. Right now, he lacks the tools for that. If you give him better kills or more weight, you are just giving a flawed character a better chance at randomly winning.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

It just makes me sad seeing how almost every character is being used somewhere in competitive play EXCEPT Mewtwo, as if all of his flaws are so obvious and fatal that no one wants to touch him.

I'm up for a weight increase to 85, his Melee weight, because I'm not going to expect much better than that. And then pretty much have his forward smash and aerials have more consistent hitboxes and not whiff as much. Because his combo game is pretty much nonexistent right now. Top that with being a huge target, and having Jigglypuff-like weight and floatiness, plus having the rage mechanic working against you, and you have one of the worst characters in the game. So buffs to one of these areas, especially the combo game, would be extremely helpful, because poor Mewtwo is suffering right now

 

[Chiroz]

Sometimes I think if Jab/Grab didn't whiff on small characters and if his hitboxes matched his trails Mewtwo would be good enough already. Since most of his attacks have trails start before the hitbox comes out, just having the hitboxes match the trail would mean that the attacks have lesser start-up.

His U-Tilt, B-Air, U-Air, F-Air would all have less start up. They could also make N-Air and D-Smash match it's animation. N-Air's hitbox is slightly smaller than the animation and so is D-Smash's hitbox.

Basically just make all his stuff match what we see i nthe game and I think Mewtwo could be a pretty solid character.

 

[---]

Pretty much what Raykz said.

Would also want to see Mewtwo's attacks to have larger hitboxes closer to M2's body. I shouldn't be able to overlap an opponent and not do anything with so many of his moves (B-Air, U-Air, F-Smash, U-Smash), especially when M2's only non-hurtbox is at the trunk of the tail. U-Smash, in particular, bugs the crap out of me as a Mega Man main.

Disable, IMO, should do some extra shield damage. Though how much depends on how Jab is fixed, to which regardless I think could use a bit more to validate the risk.

D-Throw I'd like to see have less end lag or launch at a more vertical angle so it can be combo'd at lower %s at least.


Weight I would like to see, but only around Rosalina's. Mewtwo's kill buffs I think validate some weight loss, though I still find it disgusting that Luma got back some HP in the latest patch. Regardless I don't think it'll happen nor do I think it's the root of the problem.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know if I went overboard with this since Mewtwo is so flawed, but here is my list of buffs.

• Weight increase: ~85-90
• Hitboxes should match the animations for every move that has this problem (i.e. as soon as the animation comes out, so they would hit more and come out faster), and some should hit closer to Mewtwo like Fsmash.
• Confusion shouldn't have a hop so we can land with a command grab, we're already recovering from anywhere.
• Less startup on Confusion (12->10)
• Confusion puts Mewtwo at a frame advantage (8 frames)
• D-throw should have more hitstun or have less end lag and send at a closer angle so we have followups off of it.
• Less end+landing lag on all aerials
• Lower hitbox on grab, startup reduced 1 frame
• Dsmash slightly stronger
• Fthrow always connecting every shadow ball
• Utilt only having 2 weak hits that start combos into Utilt, Uair, or Usmash
• Ftilt 2 frames faster and having less lag
• Jab hitting lower and connecting to multi jab more consistently
• Lower landing lag on teleport

 

[Karsticles]

I don't know if I went overboard with this since Mewtwo is so flawed, but here is my list of buffs.

• Weight increase: ~85-90
• Hitboxes should match the animations for every move that has this problem (i.e. as soon as the animation comes out, so they would hit more and come out faster), and some should hit closer to Mewtwo like Fsmash.
• Confusion shouldn't have a hop so we can land with a command grab, we're already recovering from anywhere.
• Less startup on Confusion (12->10)
• Confusion puts Mewtwo at a frame advantage (8 frames)
• D-throw should have more hitstun or have less end lag and send at a closer angle so we have followups off of it.
• Less end+landing lag on all aerials
• Lower hitbox on grab, startup reduced 1 frame
• Dsmash slightly stronger
• Fthrow always connecting every shadow ball
• Utilt only having 2 weak hits that start combos into Utilt, Uair, or Usmash
• Ftilt 2 frames faster and having less lag
• Jab hitting lower and connecting to multi jab more consistently
• Lower landing lag on teleport

Why would you want to remove a recovery tool? That would be a nerf to Confusion. If you want to use it as an aerial command grab, just use it at the start of your recovery. It only bounces once.

 

[Deleted member]

Why would you want to remove a recovery tool? That would be a nerf to Confusion. If you want to use it as an aerial command grab, just use it at the start of your recovery. It only bounces once.

Does Mewtwo even need confusion to recover? Last I checked his double jump was practically an up B, his teleport lacks a hurtbox while recovering, and confusion barely covers any distance. And I want a command grab that can be used in neutral, like Wario's Chomp or Yoshi's Egg Lay. Those moves are fantastic. And since when was using Confusion in the air once and then landing with it viable? The opponent will always punish you if you throw a random confusion out so you don't hop in order to land a command grab.

 

[Karsticles]

Does Mewtwo even need confusion to recover? Last I checked his double jump was practically an up B, his teleport lacks a hurtbox while recovering, and confusion barely covers any distance. And I want a command grab that can be used in neutral, like Wario's Chomp or Yoshi's Egg Lay. Those moves are fantastic. And since when was using Confusion in the air once and then landing with it viable? The opponent will always punish you if you throw a random confusion out so you don't hop in order to land a command grab.

Huh? Look, imagine you are off stage. You are trying to recover high. Make the first thing you do Confusion, and then you have the command grab option open. I do this all the time.

Yes, Confusion is an important part of our recovery. It gives us far more options when trying to gimp, and it lets us cross under stages.

 

[Deleted member]

Huh? Look, imagine you are off stage. You are trying to recover high. Make the first thing you do Confusion, and then you have the command grab option open. I do this all the time.

Yes, Confusion is an important part of our recovery. It gives us far more options when trying to gimp, and it lets us cross under stages.

Since when is the gimmick of crossing under a stage noteworthy? Since when is it ever necessary to use Confusion while recovering? I've never seen practical use for it and a command grab in neutral, rather than returning from disadvantage, is far more valuable to a character's game plan. But I'm done arguing since its pointless. We all know Mewtwo is going to stay flawed and horrible.

 

[Karsticles]

Since when is the gimmick of crossing under a stage noteworthy? Since when is it ever necessary to use Confusion while recovering? I've never seen practical use for it and a command grab in neutral, rather than returning from disadvantage, is far more valuable to a character's game plan. But I'm done arguing since its pointless. We all know Mewtwo is going to stay flawed and horrible.

How can you not understand that you are actively asking for Mewtwo to be nerfed when you suggest this change? It blows my mind. Maybe you are playing the wrong character. Confusion has saved me from SD plenty of times when I go deep for gimps. That's why the move is there.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Mewtwo's second jump is long but slow and has no unique traits (e.g. super armor) to make you less vulnerable when using it. The distance you get from teleport isn't special and the lag from the aerial version makes it hard to recover with. If you get hit while using the double jump, you won't have many recovery options available to you, especially if you are trying to recover vertically. At least with Confusion, you can conserve your double jump and get some vertical and horizontal mobility.

I'd love to get frame advantage off of Confusion as well, but no one is prioritizing one change over another.

 

[RayNoire]

We need all the help in disadvantage we can get, seeing as ours is one of the worst. And we don't really want to approach anyway.

 

[godogod]

How can you not understand that you are actively asking for Mewtwo to be nerfed when you suggest this change? It blows my mind. Maybe you are playing the wrong character. Confusion has saved me from SD plenty of times when I go deep for gimps. That's why the move is there.

Agreed!!! Confusion has saved me many times from what could have been an SD as well. That hop/momentum slowing down is really vial.

However, I'm not a big fan of Shadowball's recoil in the air traveling half the distance of FD stage. I don't even think its necessary as a recovery option, and IMO puts you at a vulnerable position when trying to get back on the stage, if the enemy is at the stage waiting for you as you have your back turned. I'd rather have it have much less recoil so I can use it offensively to get back into the stage, instead of worrying about SDing.

Pretty much what Raykz said.

Would also want to see Mewtwo's attacks to have larger hitboxes closer to M2's body. I shouldn't be able to overlap an opponent and not do anything with so many of his moves (B-Air, U-Air, F-Smash, U-Smash), especially when M2's only non-hurtbox is at the trunk of the tail. U-Smash, in particular, bugs the crap out of me as a Mega Man main.

Disable, IMO, should do some extra shield damage. Though how much depends on how Jab is fixed, to which regardless I think could use a bit more to validate the risk.

D-Throw I'd like to see have less end lag or launch at a more vertical angle so it can be combo'd at lower %s at least.


Weight I would like to see, but only around Rosalina's. Mewtwo's kill buffs I think validate some weight loss, though I still find it disgusting that Luma got back some HP in the latest patch. Regardless I don't think it'll happen nor do I think it's the root of the problem.

Down throw being easier to follow up needs to follow up, I can definitely agree with. Mewtwo's combo options are too limited. It's either jab or down tilt(vast majority of the time its the latter). ugh

 

[Smashifer]

-Give him his Melee weight back. There is no need for him to be lighter than Kirby. His tall stature doesn't help him when he's lighter than a stomach with eyes. YES, he hits insanely hard. But that doesn't matter when your dying from an uncharged f-smash at 32% at the ledge.
-Give him ACTUAL hitboxes ALL along his tail for his b-air and u-air. The hitboxes only seem to be on the base of his tail and at the tip. Nothing happens in the middle.

I want to main Mewtwo. I really do. But I just can't get into him with all of these noticeable flaws dragging me down.

 

[LRodC]

Sorry guys, but for people that want Mewtwo's weight to be changed, you need to face the fact that the weight buff is most likely not gonna happen. In the latest conquest, he's put into the category of "Flyweight" along with Jigglypuff, Kirby, G&W, and Fox. He was definitely intended to have his low weight by the looks of things. If you expect any change at all, expect it to be small.

Either way, a weight buff isn't going to necessarily end Mewtwo's problems and he has other things to address first like his hitboxes as so many people have pointed out.

 

[godogod]

its just an online matchup.. And we didn't say a weight change was the only thing he needed to be "good." Did you actually even read any messages on this thread? Every other message made a list of changes.

and yes I don't think he will get any thing too significant in weight, if he gets it. But the thing is that people are posting their hopes of changes, which is completely different from what we are expecting.

 

[GanonPawnch]

I'm guessing they won't change his weight so I'l avoid that obvious problem.

• Make his grab have less end lag. - I didn't think this was really a problem until I actually focused on it. He has quite a lot of end lag on his grabs and that's annoying for a character that grabs a lot. (although I suppose you could argue that's balanced for someone that has a kill throw.)
• Slightly buff grab range. - I honestly don't think it's as a bad as people say, but I think it could do with a slight buff.
• N-air hits smaller opponents easier.
• Grab/jab doesn't whiff on smaller opponents.
• Faster up-air. - Honestly I think back-air is alright, maybe a slight buff to it wouldn't hurt idk. Up-air though seems a bit too slow to reliably chase aerial opponents.
• Give confusion more hitstun, so that they almost hit the ground before they can act. Or maybe have it like PM's, where they're in hitstun in the air more.
• Down smash hits people on the ledge easier. - I haven't tested this, but I've heard people say that it doesn't hit well at the edge at all. That just seems ridiculous to me, that move looks like it's made for punishing people at the edge/ledge.

That's all I really have for now.

 

[RayNoire]

Hey Mewtwos,

It's come to my attention that we could use some video representation of Mewtwo's hitbox and hurtbox issues, since those are the most likely issues to be fixed if we can raise awareness of them.

Can anyone with some modicum of skill in video editing put together a nice compilation of said issues for me to share with the world? (With full credit given of course.)

Ideally, the video would cover:

Utilt's missing hitbox on the back
Fsmash's missing hitbox in extreme close range
Dsmash not hitting on the ledge
Grab's missing hitbox (the purple spark)
Nair's missing hitbox (the sparks on startup)
Fair's missing hitbox
Bair's missing hitbox
Uair's missing hitbox (especially in front)
Teleport-Cide
Mewtwo's terrible hurtbox behind him/while tech-rolling or ledge-rolling

I think this could really go a long way towards getting our character patched up. It worked for Link! (Well, in the opposite sense.)

 

[Karsticles]

Hey Mewtwos,

It's come to my attention that we could use some video representation of Mewtwo's hitbox and hurtbox issues, since those are the most likely issues to be fixed if we can raise awareness of them.

Can anyone with some modicum of skill in video editing put together a nice compilation of said issues for me to share with the world? (With full credit given of course.)

Ideally, the video would cover:

Utilt's missing hitbox on the back
Fsmash's missing hitbox in extreme close range
Dsmash not hitting on the ledge
Grab's missing hitbox (the purple spark)
Nair's missing hitbox (the sparks on startup)
Fair's missing hitbox
Bair's missing hitbox
Uair's missing hitbox (especially in front)
Teleport-Cide
Mewtwo's terrible hurtbox behind him/while tech-rolling or ledge-rolling

I think this could really go a long way towards getting our character patched up. It worked for Link! (Well, in the opposite sense.)

I actually plan on doing this already. I am going to make it a video series called "Mewtwo Sucks". I have all the footage put together. I just need to find time for editing.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

I actually plan on doing this already. I am going to make it a video series called "Mewtwo Sucks". I have all the footage put together. I just need to find time for editing.

That's good. These are issues that need to be fixed as soon as possible. The size-weight-speed problem still might turn people off from playing this character, but he could be a decent fighter if his hitboxes get fixed. Because it seems like he was never actually finished when they released him.

 

[LRodC]

its just an online matchup.. And we didn't say a weight change was the only thing he needed to be "good." Did you actually even read any messages on this thread? Every other message made a list of changes.

and yes I don't think he will get any thing too significant in weight, if he gets it. But the thing is that people are posting their hopes of changes, which is completely different from what we are expecting.

No, I totally get it. There are still a lot of people that don't actually use him that seem to think that's all he needs though. I was probably preaching to the choir by posting it here.

 

[HakuryuVision]

I might be biased, but i hope to see ALL of the proposed buffs here.
It's been 14 years since his last appereance in a Smash game (where he already sucked), he deserves to be more than just a "meh" characzer. : (

I actually plan on doing this already. I am going to make it a video series called "Mewtwo Sucks". I have all the footage put together. I just need to find time for editing.

Really looking forward to that! : )
...i mean, not that i think it's a good thing he sucks, but... you know?
I hope Nintendo SOMEHOW takes notice of this.

 

[RayNoire]

So...did everyone already know that we have much less ledge invincibility than every other character?

Like, it's so obvious, and yet somehow I never caught on to it until now.

That would be another great thing to put in a video.

 

[RoyIsOurBoy_TTG]

So...did everyone already know that we have much less ledge invincibility than every other character?

Like, it's so obvious, and yet somehow I never caught on to it until now.

That would be another great thing to put in a video.

Jesus, if everything else that is bad with this character wasn't enough already, there is that too? I never caught on to that either. The fact that some people had to pay money to get this character that is full to the brim with flaws is pretty disgraceful.

 

[Karsticles]

So...did everyone already know that we have much less ledge invincibility than every other character?

Like, it's so obvious, and yet somehow I never caught on to it until now.

That would be another great thing to put in a video.

Do you have objective proof of this, or just a feeling? I've always felt like it was normal.

 

[Chiroz]

So...did everyone already know that we have much less ledge invincibility than every other character?

Like, it's so obvious, and yet somehow I never caught on to it until now.

That would be another great thing to put in a video.

I don't think we have less ledge invincibility, that is calculated equal for all chars AFAIK. I think what you mean is we have more vulnerable frames when ledge snapping. That is part of how badly programmed our Teleport is (our huge body also makes it easy to be sniped during these frames).

 

[RayNoire]

Yeah, I worded it stupidly. What I meant was we have more vulnerability coming off the ledge, probably because the animation for stand and roll is so slow for us (but the invincibility is probably the same). Using other characters, the difference is stark.